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Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut





So Iron Warriors had 150-180k Astartes and World Eaters had 150k Astartes. This places both in the upper upper quarter in numeral strength of the legions. But both were stated to use battle doctrines that lead to a lot of attrition and casualties. Going by this, they should have been among the smallest of the legions and casualty averse legions like Emperor's Children and Raven Guard should have been far larger.
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Keep in mind that IW and WE had pretty high compatibility rates for implantation of geneseed for their recruits meaning they had a faster rate of recovery in terms of losses which allowed them to maintain their attrition based warfare. IW in particular had garrisons all over the Imperium, meaning that they had a bunch of established recruitment centers to facilitate the rapid creation of new marines to send to the battle front.
   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut





Why didn't the other legions establish such recruitment garrisons around the Imperium to also grow into the 150-180k range?
   
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Halifax

The Ultramarines recruited from the 500 worlds of Ultramar.

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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





World Eaters took recruits from literally every single world they conquered. While pretty much all legions had secondary recruiting worlds, most put at least some value on recruiting from their homeworld.

The IW didn't build those garrisons because they wanted to, they built them because they were forced to. Most of them weren't recruitment centers. Instead they were forced to really squeeze Olympia dry of all its recruits, which is one of the main reasons it ended up rebelling.

Because of the IW geneseed's robustness to recruit quality, they could get a lot more legionnaires from the same sized population. For example, say 1,000 recruits are sent to a legion. The IW might get 500 legionnaires out of it, while the Sons of Horus might get 200, and the Imperial Fists might only get 10-20. Not precise, just a general idea.
   
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Stormin' Stompa






 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Why didn't the other legions establish such recruitment garrisons around the Imperium to also grow into the 150-180k range?


The other legions did, but definitely not to the extent that the IW had simply because of the differing scale on which the IW fought compared to most of the other legions.

For IW specifically at least, their whole specialism was in sieges and being in the brutal, grinding assaults that many legions did not partake in, who often only got involved in the latter stages of a war for the glorious victory while the IW were basically overshadowed despite putting in most of the legwork and casualties. This also meant they were the ones who were involved in rebuilding and doing the mundane tasks of garrison duty while other legions kept pushing forward on the frontiers. It's precisely this that led to many IW to turn traitor, in addition to Perturabo, since they felt they were denied the glory that other legions were recognized for and were basically unrecognized for their willingess to do the dirty work that most Legions avoided.

It's not as clear for the WE, but I'm fairly sure that given that they were the front line assault legion that got increasingly unstable as it went along that they would have to rely on a similar but smaller level of recruitment worlds that the IW had to maintain their numbers despite suffering consistently high casualties.

As Nurglitch mentioned, there were some exceptions like the UM that had their equivalent with the 500 worlds of Ultramar, and this is due to Guilliman's proficiency in administration and logistics. Though keep in mind this is mainly in the UM's territory, IW were spread across the breadth of the Imperium due to their role as the workhorse legion.


   
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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





The WE used some pretty dark methods to maintain their strength during the Heresy. Bodt was entirely dedicated to pumping out recruits hyper-conditioned to crazy levels of violence. Post Heresy, the WE isn't really a Legion and basically consists of raving bands of maniacs dedicated to Khorne. If you worship the Blood God, welcome aboard.
The IW had so many Astartes because they needed them to garrison all their fortress worlds. Plus the aforementioned purity of their gene-seed meant they could implant more aspirants.
Most of the Legions did maintain large forces but they also varied in tactics, so a stealth Legion like the Raven Guard would have less than a meat grinder like the Iron Warriors. As well as this, each Legion's gene-seed was different and would have different flaws. The Wolves, Blood Angels, Tsons, and Emperor's Children all had serious genetic flaws that made implantation harder. The Loyalists lost thousands of soldiers in the opening acts as did the Traitors but once you throw off the yoke of the Imperium you tend to care less about procedure and etiquete, so recruiting becomes that much easier.
   
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 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
So Iron Warriors had 150-180k Astartes and World Eaters had 150k Astartes. This places both in the upper upper quarter in numeral strength of the legions. But both were stated to use battle doctrines that lead to a lot of attrition and casualties. Going by this, they should have been among the smallest of the legions and casualty averse legions like Emperor's Children and Raven Guard should have been far larger.


Not all chaos space marines are from the HH. Many if not most of them come from modern defectors or are created by the legion with its own gene seed. IIRC thats one of the reasons at one time CSM forces would go through great effort to steal loyalist gene seed.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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 Gert wrote:
Plus the aforementioned purity of their gene-seed meant they could implant more aspirants.

The Wolves, Blood Angels, Tsons, and Emperor's Children all had serious genetic flaws that made implantation harder.
Purity is too broad a word, honestly. The Blood Angels geneseed could be implanted in the most mutated and genetically deficient populations, and still get quality marines at acceptable levels. It's why they were the "fire and forget" legion. The Space Wolves geneseed was less impacted by the age of the recruit and so had a greater level of success even in older recruits. Both still had their "flaws" as we know them. But that is unrelated to their recruitment ability. The legion with the lowest successful implantation rate was actually the Imperial Fists, whose implantation process was the most painful and led to the most direct recruit deaths.
   
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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





I meant purity in the sense of it was the most compatible and didn't turn you into a werewolf or vampire monster.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





The World Eaters don't really care all that much for genetic inheritance and will accept anyone who worships Khorne into their ranks. In the novel The Red Path, Kharn's army included Marines going all the way back to the War Dogs era to someone from the Alpha Legion, someone from the Steel Cobras, a fallen Blood Angel and I think a fallen Ultramarine. The only requirement for joining was to be implanted with the Butcher's Nails.
   
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Battleship Captain




 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Why didn't the other legions establish such recruitment garrisons around the Imperium to also grow into the 150-180k range?


Because they didn't need to. If you don't suffer heavy casualties as part of your standard operating procedures, ensuring you have the numbers to absorb those casualties isn't so important.

The raven guard, for example, put resources into stuff like reflex-fielded warships instead.

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
So Iron Warriors had 150-180k Astartes and World Eaters had 150k Astartes. This places both in the upper upper quarter in numeral strength of the legions. But both were stated to use battle doctrines that lead to a lot of attrition and casualties. Going by this, they should have been among the smallest of the legions and casualty averse legions like Emperor's Children and Raven Guard should have been far larger.


Not all chaos space marines are from the HH. Many if not most of them come from modern defectors or are created by the legion with its own gene seed. IIRC thats one of the reasons at one time CSM forces would go through great effort to steal loyalist gene seed.


I wouldnt say "most". Since there is no real background to verify that statement. Considering the ruling in the codex of Veteran of the Long War, id say most legions are still filled with vets. Perhaps a 50/50. Renegade Marines such as the Red Corsairs, would have next to no veterans. Legion marines and renegade marines are two different beasts.
   
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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





Marines from the Heresy being the main body of Chaos Legions is a tricky one. It's been 10k years since the Heresy, we had the Scouring where many Traitor Legions were culled, the Legion Wars in the Eye where they all fought each other which in turn only ended when Abbadon launched the 1st Black Crusade, which itself saw lots of conflict between Traitor Legions.
The current Legions might use mostly their own gene-seed but many of those who fought in the Heresy likely won't be frontline grunts anymore. Terminators, Chosen, unit leaders, and warband leaders are where you will find these guys. The exceptions tend to be the Tsons and Death Guard with not really being alive for the former and super resilience for the latter. By and large, the Legions aren't Legions anymore and fight themselves as often as anyone else. Dedicate yourself to the Gods of Chaos and you will likely be welcomed in one of the Legions anyway. The Fists Exemplar joined a band of Iron Warriors and the Alpha Legion brought many Astartes of both Emperor's Swords and Crimson Consuls into their ranks through schemes and plots.
As for Renegade marines, there is nothing to stop them from having veterans. The Red Corsairs formed from the Astral Claws who were strong enough to be a threat from the get-go. Renegade chapters are still Astartes and chapter veterans can still turn traitor. It's noted in the Iron Warriors books by Graham McNeill that the Corsairs even have Astartes from the Traitor Legions in their ranks and in ADB's book Blood Reaver, the Corsairs have a Night Lords strike cruiser in their arsenal with slaves who still remembered serving the Night Lords.
   
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Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




It's interesting that for the first time into GC literature (as far as I can recall), a Space Marine Legion lose far more marines than Xenos they kill in the battles between the IW and the Hrud. Even with the war on Murder, where the Marines were being decimated at first, they still killed more then they lost. Weird thing is that the IW seem to think it acceptable in their attempts at exterminating the Hrud. The book heavily suggests over 50% casualties in the campaign.
   
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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





The Sak'trada Deeps campaign wasn't so clear-cut. The area was of minimal strategic value and the invasion was ordered by the War Council, who functioned the same way as the future High Lords. Perturabo saw it as a waste of time but his loyalty to the Emperor overrode his own feelings, if he was ordered to invade he would invade.
Warsmith Barbaras Dantioch directly questioned why the campaign was being prosecuted and was basically exiled for it. It was a colossal failure of a campaign and Perturabo considered it the Emperor's fault. It didn't help matters that almost directly after news of Olympia's rebellion reached the Legion. It was basically the second last straw that broke the Camel's back.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/18 20:12:41


 
   
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






IMO, GW really needs to un-flanderize Khorne because the fluff has reached the point of absurdity where there is no reasonable explanation to account for their rate of attrition, let alone any sort of logistics or organization to function as a long-term force.

IW I don't see as having issues. Their tendency to heavily fortify leads quite well to having stable recruitment centers. "Stable" being in a relative sense here. I think I heard somewhere about them having biomechanical birthing-engines that could spit out people but that may just be my memory getting mixed up with DKoK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Marines from the Heresy being the main body of Chaos Legions is a tricky one. It's been 10k years since the Heresy, we had the Scouring where many Traitor Legions were culled, the Legion Wars in the Eye where they all fought each other which in turn only ended when Abbadon launched the 1st Black Crusade, which itself saw lots of conflict between Traitor Legions.
The current Legions might use mostly their own gene-seed but many of those who fought in the Heresy likely won't be frontline grunts anymore. Terminators, Chosen, unit leaders, and warband leaders are where you will find these guys. The exceptions tend to be the Tsons and Death Guard with not really being alive for the former and super resilience for the latter. By and large, the Legions aren't Legions anymore and fight themselves as often as anyone else. Dedicate yourself to the Gods of Chaos and you will likely be welcomed in one of the Legions anyway. The Fists Exemplar joined a band of Iron Warriors and the Alpha Legion brought many Astartes of both Emperor's Swords and Crimson Consuls into their ranks through schemes and plots.
As for Renegade marines, there is nothing to stop them from having veterans. The Red Corsairs formed from the Astral Claws who were strong enough to be a threat from the get-go. Renegade chapters are still Astartes and chapter veterans can still turn traitor. It's noted in the Iron Warriors books by Graham McNeill that the Corsairs even have Astartes from the Traitor Legions in their ranks and in ADB's book Blood Reaver, the Corsairs have a Night Lords strike cruiser in their arsenal with slaves who still remembered serving the Night Lords.
You know things are grimdark when getting enslaved by the Red Corsairs is an improvement

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/19 02:24:07


 
   
Made in nl
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





I think we also need to remember that certainly before and probably even to this very day, GW just makes up numbers and logistics to do whatever they want for story purposes. It's why High and Dark elves could have massively wasteful wars with each other every few hundred years in WHFB despite being ostensibly "dying" races.
I understand people wanting to make sense of the lore and explain seeming inconsistencies but sometimes the reality is you can't really explain that because GW certainly doesn't care.
   
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Dakka Veteran





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
IMO, GW really needs to un-flanderize Khorne because the fluff has reached the point of absurdity where there is no reasonable explanation to account for their rate of attrition, let alone any sort of logistics or organization to function as a long-term force.


I would love to see a story about a Khorne worshipping leader who specifically calculates strategies to maximize, not just enemy casualties, but gruesome enemy casualties, while minimizing their own (Khorne may not care from where blood flows, but an intelligent leader would).

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
IW I don't see as having issues. Their tendency to heavily fortify leads quite well to having stable recruitment centers. "Stable" being in a relative sense here. I think I heard somewhere about them having biomechanical birthing-engines that could spit out people but that may just be my memory getting mixed up with DKoK.


Oh no, you're remembering correctly. Just don't look into it any further, you won't like what you find.
   
Made in gb
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You know things are grimdark when getting enslaved by the Red Corsairs is an improvement

"Welcome slaves to your new life under the Red Corsairs. We're pirates and you are worthless scum BUT we won't skin you for fun "

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/19 03:00:41


 
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
IMO, GW really needs to un-flanderize Khorne because the fluff has reached the point of absurdity where there is no reasonable explanation to account for their rate of attrition, let alone any sort of logistics or organization to function as a long-term force.

IW I don't see as having issues. Their tendency to heavily fortify leads quite well to having stable recruitment centers. "Stable" being in a relative sense here. I think I heard somewhere about them having biomechanical birthing-engines that could spit out people but that may just be my memory getting mixed up with DKoK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Marines from the Heresy being the main body of Chaos Legions is a tricky one. It's been 10k years since the Heresy, we had the Scouring where many Traitor Legions were culled, the Legion Wars in the Eye where they all fought each other which in turn only ended when Abbadon launched the 1st Black Crusade, which itself saw lots of conflict between Traitor Legions.
The current Legions might use mostly their own gene-seed but many of those who fought in the Heresy likely won't be frontline grunts anymore. Terminators, Chosen, unit leaders, and warband leaders are where you will find these guys. The exceptions tend to be the Tsons and Death Guard with not really being alive for the former and super resilience for the latter. By and large, the Legions aren't Legions anymore and fight themselves as often as anyone else. Dedicate yourself to the Gods of Chaos and you will likely be welcomed in one of the Legions anyway. The Fists Exemplar joined a band of Iron Warriors and the Alpha Legion brought many Astartes of both Emperor's Swords and Crimson Consuls into their ranks through schemes and plots.
As for Renegade marines, there is nothing to stop them from having veterans. The Red Corsairs formed from the Astral Claws who were strong enough to be a threat from the get-go. Renegade chapters are still Astartes and chapter veterans can still turn traitor. It's noted in the Iron Warriors books by Graham McNeill that the Corsairs even have Astartes from the Traitor Legions in their ranks and in ADB's book Blood Reaver, the Corsairs have a Night Lords strike cruiser in their arsenal with slaves who still remembered serving the Night Lords.
You know things are grimdark when getting enslaved by the Red Corsairs is an improvement

Who said it was an improvement? When the Night Lords retook the Echo of Damnation from the Red Corsairs all of the remaining Nostroman crewmembers:
Fell to their knees before the warriors of the Eighth Legion, speaking praises and blessings to see such a potent reminder of their annihilated home world.

Blood Reaver, Chapter XXII: Echo of Damnation, page 350

Sounds like they preferred the Night Lords to the Red Corsairs. After retaking the ship Tenth Company had to purge Chaos taint from multiple levels. Doesn't sound like a pleasant place to be.

As for how many "veterans" the Legions have compared to renegades, if we're talking about actual veterans of the Horus Heresy, then obviously the Legions would be the only ones with any. Tenth Company was completely made up of such veterans, who had seen action on Isstvan, and the assault on the Imperial Palace. So yeah, plenty of true Veterans of The Long War still around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
You know things are grimdark when getting enslaved by the Red Corsairs is an improvement

"Welcome slaves to your new life under the Red Corsairs. We're pirates and you are worthless scum BUT we won't skin you for fun "


Night Lords don't skin useful crewmembers "for fun". That's a waste of valuable resources. They're psychopathic killers, not idiots.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/19 03:32:56


 
   
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One thing to also remember is that the Iron Warriors also use a lot of auxiliary soldiers, so they themselves don't always bear the brunt of the initial assault. Also, they use even more forms of grimdark meat shields, like when they dressed up captured Guard in cultist gear and sent them towards the enemy lines to be shot to pieces.

Arcanis161 wrote:I would love to see a story about a Khorne worshipping leader who specifically calculates strategies to maximize, not just enemy casualties, but gruesome enemy casualties, while minimizing their own (Khorne may not care from where blood flows, but an intelligent leader would).


That's very much what the Brazen Beasts do. They use loads of daemon engines and tanks for their vanguard, while their Marines fight in a relatively disciplined fashion. They also have pacts with bloodcrusher legions for further reinforcements.
   
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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Night Lords don't skin useful crewmembers "for fun". That's a waste of valuable resources. They're psychopathic killers, not idiots.

Dude, twas' a simple jest. Yeah, I know they didn't skin "useful" crew for fun but Talos's lads being slightly less maniac doesn't mean the majority of NL aren't psychos with a love of living in flesh castles and peeling humans like oranges.
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut







For a look at the nightlords and their treatment of human slaves the nightlord omnibus is great reading. Sure, they're monsters, but they have some humanity in them.

"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





TBF though, as much as I love that series, First Claw are much more human than most Astartes and that's down to ADB's writing style where he puts loads of human characters, usually women, to counterbalance the macho inhuman Space Marines. (Sidenote, I do love ADB's books they are some of my favourites.) In the wider warband,
Spoiler:
and in First Claw,
there are psychos and crazies or those who embrace Chaos. Ruven and the squad of Raptors spring to mind. We never really see any NL outside of the warband either which limits our personal scope to just First Claw and some supporting characters. Sadly NL are mostly consigned to short stories and the only non-30k novel I can think of featuring them is Red Tithe by Robbie MacNiven, which is an excellent book of Charcharadons vs Night Lords.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/21 17:31:24


 
   
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Exalted Beastlord




 Matt Swain wrote:

For a look at the nightlords and their treatment of human slaves the nightlord omnibus is great reading. Sure, they're monsters, but they have some humanity in them.


Mostly emo, whiny teenage brat humanity. They're basically Peter Pan's Lost Boys with Black Hats.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Matt Swain wrote:

For a look at the nightlords and their treatment of human slaves the nightlord omnibus is great reading. Sure, they're monsters, but they have some humanity in them.
That is true; one of their hearts, lungs, liver, and numerous other organs are human organs which Night Lords contain.
   
 
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