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Hi again,

as I mentioned from time to time I'm currently still just in the modelling/painting/collecting side of the hobby and don't know when I will get around to actually playing a bit - even if I would really like to. I don't have friends that are into warhammer 40K so the most likely scenario will be to ask the group at the local game store (we once had a little chat about modelling and they invited me to join them playing when I'm "ready") or find someone online

There's one thing I would be curious though: While I assume proxies or third party stuff that clearly runs on common rules ("if it looks like a Leman Russ, just pretend it's a Leman Russ") would rarely be an issue, I have some units that I build as a kitbashing project that do not necessarily have a counterpart in the IG codex. Stuff like turret emplacements, light tanks, Scout cars etc. I'm also considering building some heavy weapon teams with Multilasers because I like those and I don't see a fluff reason for them not to be used by infantry squads.

Could anyone advise me how the proper etiquette for using these are? I would assume when I contact someone to play with I would
1st: tell him that I have some homebrew units and ask if he would generally be OK with me using them? (obviously some days BEFORE we meet for the game)
2nd: Send him the proposed datasheets/options to agree/disagree with (like writing: "Are you OK with my HWS having 5 point Multilasers?", "Are you OK with a vehicle with 10 x 5 x 5 cm having this datasheet: xxx?")
3rd: If he is not OK with the unit ask "Would you be OK with this (photo) being a Hydra, even if it technically does not have the right weapons"?

Maybe I think to much about it, but I'm suspicious if such an inquiry comes around nerdy/like "That guy" and those homebrew thingies are better left to well established gaming groups that know each other for a while...

Well, first off, points tend to be consistent so something like 5 point multilasers isn't going to fly (though I honestly don't know what multilasers are at the moment, they're largely baked in to the units that have them).

Homebrew datashees are a lot more difficult for people to swallow, especially if they're things that don't have any comparable units in the codex. The general etiquette is... don't.

Proxying is far more likely to be accepted.

The key point here is always going to be: talk to your opponent.

Would I want to play against homebrew units in a pickup game against a virtual stranger at the game store? No. Against a friend that I've known for a while though? Sure.

Typically, I'd ask if someone is interested in playing a casual game against some custom units. I have written up rules for my mechanicum stuff in 8th ed 40k, and I also often use my Idoneth Deepkin in 40k games as Exodites. Usually, there are a few people who are interested in that kind of a game when I'm in the mood for it, but it is a bit frustrating that there are plenty of people who accept that the game is hyper imbalanced...but they're only willing to play officially corporate-endorsed imbalance.

Custom mechanical units?

Those were a thing in 2nd published in Dark Millenium. Maybe there was even a list published for 3rd in In Nomine Imperatoris but I am not sure.

You should take a look into those rules to get a feeling for points cost. And as someone else above already said, 5 pts. multilaser are never going to be accepted.

Ok, thanks so far. The tip with asking if someone's interested in a casual game sounds good, apart from that I take away I should leave this kind of stuff until I am (some glorious far away day) settled in a gaming group:

Regarding the multilasers: I'm a bit puzzled about your comments. Multilasers have been 5 points for the whole of 8th edition and judging from the Chimera (10 points cheaper than a heavy bolter/flamer) and Valkyrie (15 points cheaper than a lascannon) datasheet are still 5 points.
What do you mean with "this will never fly"?
Apart from this I did not want to imply changing points, just adding another option, but as said above: I get that this is nothing for pick up games

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Hi again,

as I mentioned from time to time I'm currently still just in the modelling/painting/collecting side of the hobby and don't know when I will get around to actually playing a bit - even if I would really like to. I don't have friends that are into warhammer 40K so the most likely scenario will be to ask the group at the local game store (we once had a little chat about modelling and they invited me to join them playing when I'm "ready") or find someone online

There's one thing I would be curious though: While I assume proxies or third party stuff that clearly runs on common rules ("if it looks like a Leman Russ, just pretend it's a Leman Russ") would rarely be an issue, I have some units that I build as a kitbashing project that do not necessarily have a counterpart in the IG codex. Stuff like turret emplacements, light tanks, Scout cars etc. I'm also considering building some heavy weapon teams with Multilasers because I like those and I don't see a fluff reason for them not to be used by infantry squads.

Could anyone advise me how the proper etiquette for using these are? I would assume when I contact someone to play with I would
1st: tell him that I have some homebrew units and ask if he would generally be OK with me using them? (obviously some days BEFORE we meet for the game)
2nd: Send him the proposed datasheets/options to agree/disagree with (like writing: "Are you OK with my HWS having 5 point Multilasers?", "Are you OK with a vehicle with 10 x 5 x 5 cm having this datasheet: xxx?")
3rd: If he is not OK with the unit ask "Would you be OK with this (photo) being a Hydra, even if it technically does not have the right weapons"?

Maybe I think to much about it, but I'm suspicious if such an inquiry comes around nerdy/like "That guy" and those homebrew thingies are better left to well established gaming groups that know each other for a while...

You don't use homebrew unless you are playing with someone you know and you ask if it is okay to proxy before you do it. So multilaser Heavy Weapon Teams only against people you know that said they don't mind, multilaser Heavy Weapon Teams counts-as lascannon/heavy bolter Heavy Weapon Teams against anyone that okays it when the game is getting organized. Don't try to play two units of multilaser Heavy Weapon Teams as carrying different weapons, keep things simple for your opponent.

If I posted a looking for game note on Facebook and someone responded about the possibility of bringing homebrew I probably wouldn't even check the homebrew rules before saying no. If someone posted saying they wanted a game preferably using their homebrew rules I'd check them out to see how bad they were. I think you're going to scare people off if you unload your homebrew on them before you know them, play a game or two, show you're not a robot or a WAAC player and you can slowly start to introduce your weirdness into the game. Starting the corruption process with multilaser HWTs is genius, it makes sense and if you pay heavy bolter pts for it then it's a bit overcosted. It is not a privilege to play against your homebrew, it is most likely something they do to be nice to you, so give your opponent the privilege of at least playing against something that isn't undercosted.

Ok, good point, thanks

Start by just playing the game as-is while you get to know the people at the shop/in the group.
While you're doing that? Talk to them about such things as Legends Units, proxy/3rd party models, house rules, variant Chapter Approved rules, etc.

If your homebrew units are good there will be whining plain and simple. If they're bad, people won't really care. Fundamentally 40k has a probelm with unit compositions themselves being the most important determinate of the game. By adding your own units that are good, you are undermining the primary strategical component the game provides.

In other words unless your opponent is one of those players that REALLY doesn't care if they lose or not, then you're going to have a bad time. I blame this as a function of the base rules being bad, but whatever.

I would deem my homebrew stuff rather not good, as I try to orient myself at something more or less similar in the codex and slap on a slight tax. But I get what you mean. All in all thanks for your input you all, it was really helpful.

On that note: you mentioned proxying is also something that should be carefully asked for. I have to admit I (a bit naively maybe) assumed this as so common, that it is unproblematic as long as the proxy is close enough in size and clearly identifyable. I get from your comments that I should not assume that a pick up game would be ok with two of my 3 Chimeras not being from GW but should plan with "GW only" as the norm? How strict would you be with stuff like wheeled chimeras/Tauroxes? Or for example a 30k Leman Russ Incinerator as 40k Leman Russ Vanquisher?

Basically any advice anyone gives you is going to be based on their own local group.

I use some pretty wild n crazy proxies, as do many members of our group, and it's totally normal here to do so. Homebrew rules are rarer, but we do have some people doing stuff like converting the old 3rd ed catachan book to 9th.

I would echo some of the comments.
Start playing using stock rules and proxy/count as a cool conversion. I don't think anyone would say no to a cool model as long as it's modeled within reason and not clearly modeled for advantage.

One thing you could perhaps look at is once you find some players or joining a local player group is look at the crusade. I think from a narrative perspective people might be more inclined towards wierd stuff as its already altered rules.

I would advise against this, the rules are already wonky enough without adding in homebrew stuff, it will just create awkwardness. Just use non-standard units as proxies for actual units.

One of my group regulars once made an entire codex of homebrew units. Most were based on regular stuff from the game but being the young bright-eyed naive children we were, we didn't think to say no when things got rapidly out of hand. I've not had an experience where homebrewed units have made a game any better and we steer far clear of them now.

As for your multilaser teams, there are units in 40k Legends that would fit the profile AFAIK so I would look there.

ccs wrote:
Start by just playing the game as-is while you get to know the people at the shop/in the group.
While you're doing that? Talk to them about such things as Legends Units, proxy/3rd party models, house rules, variant Chapter Approved rules, etc.

This^^ Find a reason and let your camaraderie find a way. This will deliver the best result, as your opponents will be part of the process.

 Argive wrote:
I would echo some of the comments.
Start playing using stock rules and proxy/count as a cool conversion. I don't think anyone would say no to a cool model as long as it's modeled within reason and not clearly modeled for advantage.

One thing you could perhaps look at is once you find some players or joining a local player group is look at the crusade. I think from a narrative perspective people might be more inclined towards wierd stuff as its already altered rules.

This is good advice. If you have build something, try finding a datasheet that fits. Especially for guard there are dozens of codex and FW units to pick from, turret emplacements could use the tarantula datasheet, a scout vehicle the tauros and so on. If you like having multi-lasers on your heavy weapon teams, just use them with the heavy bolter or autocannon profile, whichever fits your image of what a the gun should do. better.

The sad truth about homebrew rules for units is that outside of a few exceptions almost every player is terrible at writing rules, and out of those even less are willing to accept criticism and evolve their rules to something acceptable. Every homebrew I've ever encountered in real life resulted in one of three outcomes:
1) it was terribly weak, disappointing the player playing it
2) it was just ridiculously overpowered resulting in people refusing to play against it
3) it broke the game, because the person writing the homebrew did not have a firm grasp on rules

 Jidmah wrote:
[
The sad truth about homebrew rules for units is that outside of a few exceptions almost every player is terrible at writing rules, and out of those even less are willing to accept criticism and evolve their rules to something acceptable. Every homebrew I've ever encountered in real life resulted in one of three outcomes:
1) it was terribly weak, disappointing the player playing it
2) it was just ridiculously overpowered resulting in people refusing to play against it
3) it broke the game, because the person writing the homebrew did not have a firm grasp on rules

Just channeling our inner GW....

I remember this one guy whose named chaos lord of tzeench had the ability that every unit within 12" would be considered successfully charged and locked in combat with him... what a clusterfeth ruleswise (5th or 6th).

Do not use named characters as a general rule, that used to solve a lot of problems.

You want to forbid people from naming their miniatures?

 Jidmah wrote:
You want to forbid people from naming their miniatures?

It's fine, jeffwhite has ascended to the stage of ultrabeard, where he likes placing Thats Not Casual Enough restrictions on other peoples games but he's too far out of the loop to know what's actually a problem now. My favorite example of this phenomenon was when I went to a local game club that was advertised as a super chill, super laid back ultra narrative casual group that met in a bar. This was back in 7th ed when Guard was one of the worst armies around, so I took my all metal vostroyan collection to the club. A guy there was super mad that I was "spamming" identical leman russ tanks...because I was using three of the old 3rd ed plastic kit from before there were sponsons or guns that weren't Battlecannons.

IIRC he was also peeved that there were so many heavy bolters. Like dawg its vostroyans you get one in every box, I've converted half of mine to be lascannons instead lol.

Depends on your group and who you play. Against friends, we are happy to do whatever the he'll we want.
Playing against strangers is a bit harder. You need a level of trust first.

My general rule when making home-brew is: always overcost your homebrew.

Counts-as army? No problem as long as its clear what's what during the game. So bringing a Storm Trooper army from Star Wars Legion but using them as Scions could be cool. Still might want to let your opponent know ahead of time.

Complete home-brew army with you own Codex? You'd better ask before the game. Rock up to the table and casually announce as we deploy our units that you've tweaked the stats of your Leman Russes to be more "true to the lore." Nope. No thanks.

Dude at our FLGS has made up three 40K Star Wars Codexes. Really cool! His Droid army was at it today on the next table. But he only uses it if the other player is cool with it in a pre-arranged game.

For counts-as armies, I think the critical factor is "How easy have you made it for the other player to know what everything is without needing to constantly ask you?"

For me, personally, for custom data sheets, the factor is going to be "How open are you to feedback and changes to the designs?"