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Patrol Detachment.
Realspace Raid. Cult of Strife.
HQ.
Master succubus, the triptych whip, precision blows, show stealer = 75. (Alliance of Agony, Prizes from the Dark City).
Troops.
x10 wyches = 100.
Fast Attack.
2x12 reapers, x4 heat lances = 512.
Transport.
Raider, dark lance, chain snares, grisly trophies = 95.
Patrol Detachment.
Realspace Raid. The Dark Creed.
HQ.
Haemonculus, fear incarnate = 80. (Alliance of Agony).
That's...not how RSR works. It's a single detachment, and must include at a minimum 1 Archon with a Kabalite Warrior squad, 1 Succubus with a Wych squad and 1 Haemonculus with a Wrack squad.
You dont get to put the RSR tag on your entire army split across three detachments.
RSR works like this. You take a batallion.
You have All 3 HQ reuqired.
Archon (must be warlord)
Succubus
Haemonculus
and you must take 1 of each troop (you can take more)
You can then take additional patrols if you want for 0 CP.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
You can then take additional patrols if you want for 0 CP.
This is incorrect. Raiding Force (not Realspace Raiders) only applies if the entire army is Patrol detachments. RSR and Raiding Force are mutually exclusive rules.
You can then take additional patrols if you want for 0 CP.
This is incorrect. Raiding Force (not Realspace Raiders) only applies if the entire army is Patrol detachments. RSR and Raiding Force are mutually exclusive rules.
Thank you for correcting me then - I have only seen one review via youtube.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Boy! Lotsa advice on how your list is wrong! Wouldja like some advice on how to make it better (meant to be on the positive) ?
- - - - - - - - - -
One overall: Replace as many vehicle Dark Lances with Disintegrator Cannons as you have points. They are still the better gun, particularly in getting rid of filthy 2W Space Marines.
Two: With the revamp of the previous (correct) advice on Detachment organization, you're going to need to pare down to 3 Fast Attack choices instead of the 5 you listed. Scourges with Haywries took a hit going to Heavy, but still might pull the most weight of the FA choices. You listed them having Dark Lances but I believe the newer damage stats are still better for haywire, versus vehicles, especially ones than gain invuln saves. Already modeled as such? Well, DLs are better, more reliable let's say, than before.
Archon, agoniser, writ of the living muse, labyrinthine cunning, warlord = 65.
Troops.
x5 kabalite warriors = 40.
Elites.
2x10 incubi = 320.
If I understand the RSR rules, on page 49, I believe you can include Drazhar; his inclusion might be worth it to these 20 dudes, increasing 20 more attacks, upping your h2h Blender power.
With points saved on removing two of your five FA choices, I'd up your kab and wrack units. 9e is about objective scoring and we know kabs have always been squishy, and with changes, they're still fragile, so having more on the table is good. I suggest keeping them small, so more easily hidden.
Over the editions since 4e, I have found that the bling, equipment like snares & trophies are added cost that rarely pan out, and reading up on how they're a wee bit different, this edition seems to continue that.
The Shock Prow ... it's gonna cost a CP to use, but it's conditional; Mortal Wounds dealt out handily to T3 footers, and 50/50 to T4 models ... so, at this early stage, I'd say leave 'em out, until you're really getting the army's basics under control.
Phoenixcrh wrote: Master succubus, the triptych whip, precision blows, show stealer = 75. (Alliance of Agony, Prizes from the Dark City).
x10 wyches = 100.
I found Precision blows, but where is the 'Show Stealer' rule?**Found it. Page 51 Shardnet and Impaler - they aren't what they used to be for grabbing enemies, but I'd put one in anyhow for the dice pip bump. Holding an enemy unit with wyches is a great game mechanic.
Phoenixcrh wrote: 2x12 reapers, x4 heat lances = 512.
Realspace Raid. The Dark Creed.
I'm not familiar enough with coven mechanics to comment.
The Heat Lances seemed to get much better, but that is a lot of points sunk into a unit just to get a few shots. Then again, my guess is that you have loads of bikes and want to play them. I'm not gonna poo-poo these anymore. Play 'em!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/28 21:01:28
Drazhar can't fit in a realspace detachment. If you want both the character and the big detachment you need to invest 2CPs and take drazhar as a single auxiliary unit.
About the list I'd limit the bikes units to 9 per squad, avoiding both blasts malus and coherency limits. Maxing out the heat lances and the grav talos, give them +1BS. Scourges as anti tank are not that good, consider a single squad with shredders for an anti horde role, cheap and effective.
Since you chose dark creed try to max out phantasm grenade launchers wherever is possible to mount one as they can be cheap sources of mortal wounds.
Bring ravagers or flyers for solid anti tank, but with that many bikes, 3 raiders and that many incubi I don't need you need more lances. Except a squad of trueborn which is too good to pass.
I'd also recommend to upgrade haemonculus and archon to their master versions and kabalite, wyches and wracks to trueborn, bloodbrides and haemoxytes. 10 trueborn in a raider with 2 blaster and a lance are a solid anti tank option, much better than scourges.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/31 06:36:53
Blackie wrote: 10 trueborn in a raider with 2 blaster and a lance are a solid anti tank option, much better than scourges.
Blackie, buddy, with respect, I disagree with this last bit of advice.
T L: D R -
For the 100 points times two, use two units of 5 scourges, 8 blasters. 10 Kab/TrueBorn with 2 blasters clock in at 120 points (plus archon upgrade, 135). Their BS2 doesn't skew the numbers very much, and that's all one can buy ... just that one unit of TruBlasters.
Details:
Spoiler:
In 7e, one could field a 5 elf, 4 blaster Trueborn unit, usually venom mounted. At BS3, 3 blasters would hit, mebbe 4. Unless T8, all (most) wound, skipping Invulns and FNP attributes a target might possess. At an average of 3.5 wounds per (D6 average x4 hits & wounds), one *might* kill a 12 wound tank. My experience back in 7e would have my 3 units of TruBlasters bag 2 tanks (rhino equivalent). Again, eschewing Invulns or filthy, Death Guard resilience.
2 Blasters and the Raider's DL (points cost left out) is gonna deal about 10 wounds with reasonable dice (that is, my above MathHammering). Plus those 2 Trublasters come at a 10 dude Kabalite tax. And we can only field one of these in the whole army (unless I missed something?). We can leave out the raider's higher points cost over a venom.
The scourges' (Haywire guns) are not as strong as they were before either, but on paper (still not playing games cuz Covid), I believe they can deal out more less points cost:
1 unit of 5 Scourges with 4 Haywire guns is 100 points. My MathHammer revealed the Druhkarui Haywire Blaster is a complete piece of poo, and not worth wasting your reading time here. Wow, it's bad. I had not really reread the Haywire stats until now. I just deleted a couple paragraphs out of courtesy to my fellow dakka-ites.
Instead, let's look at birds with blasters.
1 unit of 5 Scourges with 4 blasters is 100 points, double the firepower, for over 25% less points, 100/135. Being Assault guns, the scourges can shoot a BS 3, instead of Haywire Heavy (another factor of suckage for Haywires ), as scourges either Move or drop in from Reserve in typical use. With above numbers from the 7e TruBlaster calculations, we get essentially the old Trublaster numbers, of an average, reasonably, dealing 11 to 12 wounds to a T7 or less tank.
But, we get to field 8 blasters in two units of Scourges, instead of 2 blasters in a unit of 10 Trueborn. The 10 scourges are:
a. nearly twice the points (200 versus TB's 135) but 4 times the fire power, or less points, double fire power
b. Alpha Strike resistant
c. More mobile without paying for a Raider
The slice of TruB BS 2 versus Scourge BS3 mitigates things only a little given the scourges' volume of fire, or TruB lack thereof. And, these winged clowns get to hide in Reserve Round 1 so won't get Alpha smacked by artillery.
---------------------
So, the Haywire gets shelved, and we field birds with blasters for swingy anti-tank. And I cannot see any good reason to field Trueborn, at a 25% points increase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/31 19:05:08
"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.
"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013
Dark lances are generally being perceived as better than disintegrators at this time, due to the change to make them 3+d3 damage. W3 and W4 (or effectively W4, see Death Guard Termies) heavy infantry are running around a lot, as are large targets like magnus, morty, keepers, etc etc. 3+d3 and d6+2 damage is the current hotness du jour.
I also think you might be slightly misunderstanding the application of trueborn - the unit setup is 10 trueborn (100pts), 1 dark lance (15pts), 2 blasters (20pts). If you run them in either black heart or obrose, you get one free reroll in the unit, which in a bs2+ unit typically allows you to reroll the one hit that otherwise would miss. This means, on average, 2 blaster+1 lance trueborn in a raider deal 9.33 wounds on average to a T7 3+ target, while a squad of blaster scourge deal 6.2. So while the whole package does cost 225pts vs 100pts for the scourges(you probably also want splinter racks to allow the 14 bs2+ splinter shots to fire out the full 24"), it allows for a LOT more defensive staying power, mobility, and flexibility.
A lot of lists I'm seeing are including the trueborns. Scourges too, I dont think they've suddenly become bad, but they're just not always the best.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Phoenixcrh wrote: Patrol Detachment.
Realspace Raid. Kabal of the Blackheart.
HQ.
Archon, agoniser, writ of the living muse, labyrinthine cunning, warlord = 65.
Patrol Detachment.
Realspace Raid. Cult of Strife.
HQ.
Master succubus, the triptych whip, precision blows, show stealer = 75. (Alliance of Agony, Prizes from the Dark City).
Troops.
x10 wyches = 100.
Fast Attack.
2x12 reapers, x4 heat lances = 512.
Transport.
Raider, dark lance, chain snares, grisly trophies = 95.
Patrol Detachment.
Realspace Raid. The Dark Creed.
HQ.
Haemonculus, fear incarnate = 80. (Alliance of Agony).
As to the list presented here itself, i would ask basically: what's your battle plan? You've got some squads just chilling on foot (2x10 wracks, 2x5 kabalites), some riding in transports seemingly setting up for a turn 2 tempo list (wyches, incubi, scourges) an archon with the writ but seemingly no squad that he's like designed to really buff up, and Dark Creed as your coven pick with no plan to get them anywhere near the enemy.
The main problem with the list as I see it is, you're basically presenting your opponent with a smorgusboard of targets, something for me to shoot my antitank with, something for me to shoot my anti-infantry with, no particular turn 1 threat to any of my stuff, and you're asking him 'hey, please don't pick the thing in my army that's the most threatening to your stuff and kill it turn 1 before it gets to do something, OK?"
If I'm scared of Incubi, I can focus fire on those raiders and kill the incubi. If I'm scared of wyches, I can screen the incubi with some cheapo unit and bring that raider down. If I'm highly mobile I can try to knock down the transports and leave the units stranded, if I have a lot of D2 weaponry I can take out the reavers. All the parts aren't particularly bad, but I dont think theyre coherent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/31 19:32:39
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: I also think you might be slightly misunderstanding the application of trueborn - the unit setup is 10 trueborn (100pts), 1 dark lance (15pts), 2 blasters (20pts). If you run them in either black heart or obrose, you get one free reroll in the unit, which in a bs2+ unit typically allows you to reroll the one hit that otherwise would miss. This means, on average, 2 blaster+1 lance trueborn in a raider deal 9.33 wounds on average to a T7 3+ target,
Huh. I get the blasters doing 7 wounds (2d6 average) plus the Dark Lance's average of 5, so 12 wounds.
4 scourge blasters. BS 3, most or all hit.
Most or all wound T7 or less target. At 3.5 wounds per die, I clock 14 wounds on average (4 D6 dice), or drops to 11.5 with a miss hit or failed wound.
Not sure where you got 6.2 wounds
Oh, and thank you for a good reply. I'm looking for some light in the darkness, and I'm happy to discuss and be proven wrong.
the_scotsman wrote: So while the whole package does cost 225pts vs 100pts for the scourges(you probably also want splinter racks to allow the 14 bs2+ splinter shots to fire out the full 24"), it allows for a LOT more defensive staying power, mobility, and flexibility.
A lot of lists I'm seeing are including the trueborns. Scourges too, I dont think they've suddenly become bad, but they're just not always the best.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/31 23:17:24
"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.
"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013
Mathhammer typically doesnt estimate by rounding - usually, you look at averages, so a unit making 1 shot at bs3+ will get .666 hits, even though in an actual game obviously he will either hit or miss with no fractions. But these averages will get you a lot closer to a realistic number for how much damage a unit will put out compared to if you round each step.
Blaster scourge take 4 shots at bs3+, so they get 8/3 hits, wound a T7 target on 3s so 16/9 wounds, ignore any save worse than a 3+ and so go right to dealing 3.5 damage on average per wound, which is roughly 6.2. If you run through this sequence a few times using dice simulators on the internet, of course youll never get 6.2 damage, but youll be much closer to 6 than 14.
Even using rough rounding math, rolling 4 dice looking for 3s youd expect 1 to fail, and then rolling 3 looking for 3s youd expect 1 to fail there as well.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: Mathhammer typically doesnt estimate by rounding - usually, you look at averages, so a unit making 1 shot at bs3+ will get .666 hits, even though in an actual game obviously he will either hit or miss with no fractions. But these averages will get you a lot closer to a realistic number for how much damage a unit will put out compared to if you round each step.
That's what I'm trying to do (for several additions now).
the_scotsman wrote: Blaster scourge take 4 shots at bs3+, so they get 8/3 hits, wound
8/3 is 2.667 or almost 3 hits. As you stated things don't exactly round off like that. But, if we up the volume of shots (units) the math conforms to more reasonable whole numbers.
So, how about 3 units of scourges, 12 guns. BS3, 8 will hit.
T7-5 2/3 of those hits will wound on 3+ (back to .6667) which is roughly 5 or 6 dice wounding (5.33ish). Mitigate in that one Saved wound based on Armor 3+, right? 5 blaster shots getting in now do 7 wounds per 2d6, and that add'l 5th wound. So 3 units of birds might, should (average) dish out 17.5 wounds.
Cut in third to get back to your math of ... under 6 point something. ... I'll be danged.
Cheers, sir!
the_scotsman wrote: a T7 target on 3s so 16/9 wounds, ignore any save worse than a 3+ and so go right to dealing 3.5 damage on average per wound, which is roughly 6.2. If you run through this sequence a few times using dice simulators on the internet, of course youll never get 6.2 damage, but youll be much closer to 6 than 14.
It's that orange section I needed to fill in for myself.
Crap.
Gotta go look into that other thread now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/31 23:17:11
"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.
"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013
Scourges IMHO are best suited for an anti infantry role. 80 points for 4 Shredders means 24 shots (plus 3 poisoned shots) at S6 AP-1 against anything with 11+ bodies, typically with T3-4 and 5+ or 6+, and for that role Drukhari don't have much in their codex. Poisoned shots are still underwhelming.
There's plenty of effective ranged anti tank instead. Also if you bring a realspace detachment fast attacks slots are very limited, and I'd give priority to Hellions and Reavers over Scourges anytime.
9 Strife Reavers with 3 Heat Lances and 3 Grav Talos are 225 points, can shoot twice at BS2+ for 2 CP and they're twice (or more) as good as equal points of blaster Scourges for any purpose as they are tougher, eat up just une slot, more resilient, more deadly against tanks, more deadly against infantries and also decent in combat. Oh, they can also deal mortal wounds just by moving (Eviscerating Fly-by for 2CP) or when they charge.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/01 07:26:28
Blackie wrote: Scourges IMHO are best suited for an anti infantry role. 80 points for 4 Shredders means 24 shots (plus 3 poisoned shots) at S6 AP-1 against anything with 11+ bodies, typically with T3-4 and 5+ or 6+, and for that role Drukhari don't have much in their codex. Poisoned shots are still underwhelming.
...I mean wyches, liquifiers, boosted poison shots with PT, beasts hellions succubi...the struggle with drukhari is usually finding anti-MEQ/anti-tank stuff that's good. Or finding an opponent that's actually fielding a horde of any kind, that's also a struggle.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Wouldja like some advice on how to make it better (meant to be on the positive) ?
I just deleted a couple paragraphs out of courtesy to my fellow dakka-ites. 
), as scourges either Move or drop in from Reserve in typical use. With above numbers from the 7e TruBlaster calculations, we get essentially the old Trublaster numbers, of an average, reasonably, dealing 11 to 12 wounds to a T7 or less tank.
