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Hello all, trying to get back into things in 9th and I’ve got a ton of bits for non-primaris marines. As I understand things the old school marines have been buffed pretty significantly lately, and I’m wondering about how best to use all these minis if I were to build a new army. I’ve got enough for dozens and dozens of marines with various laid outs, plus 10-15 termies. If you were going about building an army that didn’t use/mostly didn’t use primaris, what would you build? I’m thinking of making them Imperial Fists which I know aren’t super strong currently, but I’m not looking for anything tournament competitive. I’ve got enough bodies for probably 40-60 marines outfitted in a myriad of ways.

What would you do?

I suggest using Battlescribe to play with various setups and see which you like best.

If you're looking for semi-competitive list building help, I'm not really the best for that as I'm still getting back into the hobby myself.

If you can, I'd probably suggest building as many Devastator teams and other elite squads as you can.

Once you do start getting into Primaris, you'll find them better in just about every way as GW intended, quickly replacing everything that doesn't fill a niche role, like Assault Troopers with Jump Packs.

Loads of devastators makes sense. I know that meltas have been buffed significantly and IF do well with heavy bolters, are plasma cannons worth it anymore? And I assume missile launchers still aren’t really a great choice?

 Porphyrius wrote:
Hello all, trying to get back into things in 9th and I’ve got a ton of bits for non-primaris marines. As I understand things the old school marines have been buffed pretty significantly lately, and I’m wondering about how best to use all these minis if I were to build a new army. I’ve got enough for dozens and dozens of marines with various laid outs, plus 10-15 termies. If you were going about building an army that didn’t use/mostly didn’t use primaris, what would you build? I’m thinking of making them Imperial Fists which I know aren’t super strong currently, but I’m not looking for anything tournament competitive. I’ve got enough bodies for probably 40-60 marines outfitted in a myriad of ways.

What would you do?

Take this with a grain of salt as I haven't played 9th ed yet (covid), though I played a ton of 8th. I play non-Primaris only.

I'd argue that traditional Tactical Squads are better than Intercessors by a good margin these days. The special/Heavy/Combi Weapons you can put in the squads make them a greater shooting threat against more (and more expensive) targets than Intercessors could ever hope. My go-to Troops squads for 8th were 10-man, Grav Cannon, Plasma Gun and Combi-Plasma. Meltaguns and Multimeltas have gotten a nice fat boost though, so I'd be looking to those as well. The easiest thing to do for troops would be 5-man Tactical Squads with either Grav Cannons or Multimeltas for the Heavy, and take your pick of Combi-Plasma or Melta on the Sergeant. Solid unit there.

For elites, Sternguard are great. I made it all the way through 8th ed mostly relying on their Special Issue Bolters to do wok for me. They'll basically function as Intercessors except with an even better gun. If you want you can also give them some Heavy weapons. That's up to you, personally I kept mine with just the bolters.

I relied a lot on Devastators for the majority of my firepower in 8th. For 9th edition I'd look at Devastators with either Grav Cannons, Multimeltas or Plasma Cannons. I loved 'em.

For Fast Attack a lot of people are looking at Attack Bikes now, because of the Multimelta. Just plain Bikes if you got them are probably pretty good too, as they're fast and you can pack three special weapons into the squads 2 + a combi on the Sarge.

Close Assault seems more important these days so I'd consider Vanguard, or possibly Assault Squads. Vanguard will be like Assault Intercessors except with Jump Packs and access to way better weapons, so just basically straight up superior. Assault Squads will be ok but not as good. 'Lil cheaper though.

I hear Dreadnoughts are in. If you got boxnauts they can be handy. Land Speeders can also be a nice threat since they are another unit that can carry the coveted Multimelta.

Captain/Chapter Master and Lieutenant for HQ. Chaplains and Librarians can bring some fun buffs to your units too.

I have zero experience with Terminators recently, but with their wounds increased I imagine that some good use can be gotten out of them. I'm drawn to the standard "tactical" Terminators for their dual purpose. I think I'd favor the Cyclone ML as the Heavy Weapon, but the Assault Cannon is pretty decent and a lot cheaper. The thing to remember with the Cyclone though is that the model retains his Storm Bolter, which is nice.

Again, having not played 9th but a lot of 8th, I think those units can all bring some solid value. YMMV though.

Plasma seems to be heavily meta right now for some reason. I'm not sure why myself, but my best guess is that it hits that sweet spot between range, fire output, and damage per shot.

Ah, but Lascannons seem to be preferred for anything you don't want getting up close from what I've seen.

Plasma puts up really nice numbers against a lot of targets. The range is good, and the Blast capability can be devastating to certain units. The issue now is that the rerolls aren't as common and iirc you overheat on 1s anyways (?). I'd consider bringing an Ancient to capitalize on the casualties you take from overcharging, and squeeze out a few more shots from time to time. Depends on what you're doing though.

The reality is that Primaris are a little stronger in general, but have less flexibility within units. They've got some great options to fill different roles, with their First Born counterparts often being a bit cheaper and having more options, but a little worse at base.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Plasma puts up really nice numbers against a lot of targets. The range is good, and the Blast capability can be devastating to certain units. The issue now is that the rerolls aren't as common and iirc you overheat on 1s anyways (?). I'd consider bringing an Ancient to capitalize on the casualties you take from overcharging, and squeeze out a few more shots from time to time. Depends on what you're doing though.

Overheat only applies to Overcharged now. You can choose to use a slightly worse profile to not have to worry about killing your own unit. Still, even with the danger of Overcharge, SM have a ton of ways to reroll 1s to hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suggest checking out Wahapedia for specific info, but generally Primaris are a bit more expensive for a better stat line and base weapons but few options, while the First Born are a little cheaper and worse with a tons of options.

Here's a link to Wahapedia SM datasheets: http://wahapedia.ru/wh40k9ed/factions/space-marines/datasheets

Think of my personal sadness as I traded many multi meltas to a salamanders player years back leaving me with very few dev multi meltas.

However, the day when MLs become the way ? I am totally set. I do have plenty of other heavies, aside from grav cannons which I got none of. They were beyond my time of buying dev squads.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Think of my personal sadness as I traded many multi meltas to a salamanders player years back leaving me with very few dev multi meltas.

However, the day when MLs become the way ? I am totally set. I do have plenty of other heavies, aside from grav cannons which I got none of. They were beyond my time of buying dev squads.

About 6 or 7 months ago I had someone GIVE me a Multi-melta Salamanders marine that was part of their DW army. Don't ask me if their origin chapter means anything once they're in DW, I don't play DW. I was just buying a good number of models off them at the time and they threw it in as an unwanted freebee because we had similar army color schemes. The other models they sold me were also unwanted by them because they weren't good at the time, but I've seen several things suggesting they're becoming the new meta. Two Vindicators are what I remember for sure since I bought a number of models around that same time. I was just getting back into 40k and had no idea what was considered useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't think I'll ever truly understand the mindset of "even though I bought, built, and painted this to table quality, it's no longer meta or as useful so I'll get rid of it."

Partly because I just don't think I'll ever want to get rid of what I collect and enjoy, but also partly because the meta constantly cycles every edition and even within editions as GW breaks the game with power creep.

This^^
Build what you like and is cool, not the flavour of the day.

Well I didn't get rid of the multi meltas because I hated them I was helping out a good guy with his army. It just happened to also come into flavor now. I still favor Missile launchers, call me stupid but I like my rpgs.

Have you considered magnetizing some of the load-outs so you can play with different combinations?

Thanks for the input everyone! I did a little tinkering around in battlescribe and I'm curious to see thoughts on this list. I have no idea if the warlord traits or relics are good choices, but I think the list itself makes some sense. Basic idea would be to have the tac squads, lieutenant, and company veterans move forward in the rhinos and get on midfield objectives/close to a juicy target for all that melta. Devastators, chapter master, apothecary, and ancient hang back as a fire base. Terminators teleport in, with the big unit potentially combat-squaded. Chaplain comes down in range of the assault termies (or chainfist termies, if charging a vehicle is more crucial) to help them make their charge.

Thoughts?


++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Imperial Fists) [113 PL, 12CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selection**: Imperial Fists

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

+ HQ +

Chaplain in Terminator Armour [6 PL, 95pts]: 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Litany of Hate, Storm bolter

Chapter Master [7 PL, 130pts]: Chapter Command: Chapter Master, Master-crafted boltgun, Power sword, Storm of Fire, The Eye of Hypnoth, Warlord

Lieutenants [4 PL, 75pts]
. Lieutenant: Astartes Chainsword, Combi-melta

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 128pts]
. 4x Space Marine: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Combi-melta
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 128pts]
. 4x Space Marine: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Combi-melta
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 110pts]
. 3x Space Marine: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Combi-melta
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

+ Elites +

Apothecary [5 PL, 90pts]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary

Company Ancient [4 PL, 75pts]: Boltgun

Company Veterans [3 PL, 68pts]
. Company Veteran: Combi-melta, Storm shield
. Company Veteran Sergeant: Combi-melta, Storm shield

Terminator Assault Squad [9 PL, 170pts]: Teleport Homer
. Assault Terminator Sergeant: Lightning Claw (Pair)
. 4x Assault Terminator w/x2LC: 4x Lightning Claw (Pair)

Terminator Squad [18 PL, 435pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator Sergeant
. 5x Terminator w/ Chainfist: 5x Chainfist, 5x Storm bolter
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Power fist
. . Cyclone Missile Launcher and Storm Bolter: Cyclone missile launcher
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Power fist
. . Cyclone Missile Launcher and Storm Bolter: Cyclone missile launcher
. 2x Terminator w/ Power fist: 2x Power fist, 2x Storm bolter

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [12 PL, 153pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Devastator Marine
. Devastator Marine Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Boltgun
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

Devastator Squad [12 PL, 173pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Devastator Marine
. Devastator Marine Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Boltgun
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Rhino [4 PL, 85pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter

Rhino [4 PL, 85pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter

++ Total: [113 PL, 12CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Looks decent to me for using what you have. I just want to mention for future reference that because you have a Captain (Chapter Master) in the detachment, you can include a Company Veterans without filling a Force Org slot. Also, because you have a Company Veterans in the detachment, you can include an Apothecary, a Company ancient, and a Company Champion without them taking up a Force Org slot.

Yes, even if the Company Veterans are not in a Force Org slot thanks to the Captain, the Apothecary, Ancient, and Champion can still also be taken without filling any slots.

Oh interesting, thanks for the tip! I don't have quite everything in that list, but pretty close. Like I said I have no intentions of being super competitive, but at the same time no one wants to make an obviously bad list if they can help it. And I think lots of bodies and bolters is fairly fluffy as well.

I would swap your Tactical Meltaguns and your Devastator Heavy Bolters for Grav Cannons or Multimeltas, but I play in pretty competitive metas. In particular I like Tacticals being a threat at longer ranges, hence my preference for Heavies. Even if they're deploying forward, having the extra range of a Heavy gives them the freedom to lend supporting fire where it's needed, rather than in their immediate vicinity. For your Vets, a squad of 3 feels small, but that could just be my taste. I like your big, meaty Terminator Squad . Makes me want to finish painting my own.

So grav weapons are the one thing I have none of; most of my bits are either from way back in the day (3rd-4th) or the MK3 or MK4 HH kits. I could probably scrounge up some multimeltas, though I was going with the heavy bolters for the sake of the IF ability.

It's actually only 2 vets, not 3. I added them mostly to fill out points and still fit inside the rhinos with the tacs and character support. They may not be the best option, though converting them up should be fun.

I like the idea of the termies too! Seems like they finally got the buff they've sorely needed forever.

 Porphyrius wrote:
Oh interesting, thanks for the tip! I don't have quite everything in that list, but pretty close. Like I said I have no intentions of being super competitive, but at the same time no one wants to make an obviously bad list if they can help it. And I think lots of bodies and bolters is fairly fluffy as well.

Of course. And as far as I know, there are no downsides to moving that whole blob into free slots. There are no mechanical changes that's I've seen or heard of and it frees up to four elite slots for other choices.

When you're on Battlescribe next, scroll up to just above Agents of the Imperium to find the No Force Org Slot section. If you have a Captain or Chapter Master in your list, you should see a selection for the Company Veterans. If you already have Company Veterans in an Elite slot, you should also see the other three there as well. Just put 'em in and remove the ones in Elite slots. Doesn't make much difference in your current list since you've nicely filled out your points already, but if you go to a larger point game or want to switch to a more Elite focused list it'll be a headache saver.

You're going to have a hard time with that list or anything like it. You're obsec will get blown of the table immediately, your terminators not long after, and you don't have anything cheap to drop in and score secondaries. If you want to run a lot of terminators I would highly suggest running them as dark angels right now. Always on transhuman vs not even having access to it. With the exception of very few units (company vets, LC&SS vanguard vets, mm attack bikes) old marines aren't in a great place despite what others here might say. I don't mean to be negative but in my regular play group I'm struggling to see how that list would do anything against even the most casual of players.

 Kommisar wrote:
You're going to have a hard time with that list or anything like it. You're obsec will get blown of the table immediately, your terminators not long after, and you don't have anything cheap to drop in and score secondaries. If you want to run a lot of terminators I would highly suggest running them as dark angels right now. Always on transhuman vs not even having access to it. With the exception of very few units (company vets, LC&SS vanguard vets, mm attack bikes) old marines aren't in a great place despite what others here might say. I don't mean to be negative but in my regular play group I'm struggling to see how that list would do anything against even the most casual of players.

It's a decent start into the new rules. Yes, DA is pretty powerful as usual, especially with Deathwing Terminators, but being competitive isn't everyone's goal.

I would switch out the Heavy Bolters on those Devastators for Lascannons if you can though. The extra couple marines on the Dev squads should move to the Tac squads. The wound buffer is nice, but you need those Tac squads to survive on points and should be positioning the Devs to support while staying away from the enemy. Considering the lack of squads, they'll most likely end up holding back objectives, so they'll need the long range. Also, though vehicles have seen a decline in use in general, Transports are still seen often as quick ways to get squads on middle objectives, so you'll want some ranged AT. Also, I would split up that 10-man Term squad now that there's space for it.

Here's a mock-up of the new list with some extra things thrown in to help:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Imperial Fists) [105 PL, 8CP, 1,999pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selection**: Imperial Fists

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

+ Stratagems +

Relics of the Chapter [-2CP]: 2x Number of Extra Relics

+ No Force Org Slot +

Apothecary [5 PL, -1CP, 90pts]: Acquittal, Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

Company Ancient [4 PL, -1CP, 75pts]: Boltgun, Rites of War, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Primarch's Wrath

Company Veterans [3 PL, 68pts]
. Company Veteran: Combi-melta, Storm shield
. Company Veteran Sergeant: Combi-melta, Storm shield

+ HQ +

Chaplain in Terminator Armour [6 PL, 100pts]: 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Combi-melta, Litany of Hate

Chapter Master [7 PL, 135pts]: Chapter Command: Chapter Master, Combi-melta, Power sword, Storm of Fire, The Eye of Hypnoth, Warlord

Lieutenants [4 PL, 75pts]
. Lieutenant: Astartes Chainsword, Combi-melta

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 128pts]
. 4x Space Marine: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Combi-melta
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

Tactical Squad [10 PL, 128pts]
. 4x Space Marine: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Combi-melta
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 110pts]
. 3x Space Marine: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Combi-melta
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

+ Elites +

Terminator Assault Squad [9 PL, 170pts]: Teleport Homer
. Assault Terminator Sergeant: Lightning Claw (Pair)
. 4x Assault Terminator w/x2LC: 4x Lightning Claw (Pair)

Terminator Squad [9 PL, 220pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator Sergeant
. 2x Terminator w/ Chainfist: 2x Chainfist, 2x Storm bolter
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Power fist
. . Cyclone Missile Launcher and Storm Bolter: Cyclone missile launcher
. Terminator w/ Power fist

Terminator Squad [9 PL, 220pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator Sergeant
. 2x Terminator w/ Chainfist: 2x Chainfist, 2x Storm bolter
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Power fist
. . Cyclone Missile Launcher and Storm Bolter: Cyclone missile launcher
. Terminator w/ Power fist

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 155pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Devastator Marine Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Boltgun
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 155pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Devastator Marine Sergeant: Astartes Chainsword, Boltgun
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Devastator Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Rhino [4 PL, 85pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter

Rhino [4 PL, 85pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter

++ Total: [105 PL, 8CP, 1,999pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I honestly think that Plasmas will serve you better than the Meltas unless your opponent is heavy on vehicles and/or armored melee units. Imperial Fists seem to prefer a dug in gun line to close range combat right now, so Meltas are more of a knee-jerk reaction to lots of vehicles and armored melee units. Luckily, the switch from Melta to Plasma is easy since they cost the same points usually.

You can also switch the Hero strat and Rites of War WT to the Chaplain if you find it more effective on him based on how you use him. If you plan to keep your Devs on back objectives and Tacs on mid objectives while the Terms move forward to contest forward objectives, then it might make sense for it to be on the Chaplain so they can immediately take or at least contest the opponents objectives when they get on them. On the other hand, you may find the mid objectives heavily contested and need the ObSec there while the Terms clear annoying units or vehicles, in which case it's best on the Ancient sitting in the middle to buff the Tac squads.

Not really looking to make the army DA, I don’t love the paint scheme. I’ve got painting a yellow army on the brain and so going for IF had been my thinking, though I guess I could always go for custom chapter rules if something was better suited.

I’m sure that moving away from oldmarines towards Primaris is the way to go for a stronger list, but like I said I’ve got tons of old models around and I’d rather put them to use in some way. The old minis seem to be in a much better spot now than they were last edition at least, even if they probably aren’t winning any top tables. I do have plenty of jump packs, if it might make sense to add some VVs in there in place of something else, though.

Adding more bodies to the tacs and throwing in some plasma makes sense as well. Maybe leave one of the tac squads with the melta load out and swap the others for plasma. Lascannons make sense as well, like I said I was thinking bolters for the fluff and chapter tactic, but some proper long range anti tank is probably needed.

I personally would do a custom paint scheme and then use whatever rules I wanted to try at that moment. Either way anyone worth playing won’t care what color/rules your using.

The best thing to do is just play and see what happens. I can tell you you’re going to be sad when the devastators get deleted by full payload manticores or everything you plan on moving onto objectives get melted by fusion boats turn 1 though.

So if I’m understanding you the biggest issue you see here is durability, right? What sort of units would you suggest to stand up to more fire? Is it a matter of stratagem support? Now that all marines have 2 wounds Intercessors wouldn’t really have any more staying power than tacs and devastators, would they? Or is a list like the above just not killy enough for its durability?

I'll start by admitting I'm not a tournament player and I've only been playing the game for about a year now but I've played around 30 games of 9th edition so far and have a small degree of understanding about what works and what doesn't.

Now that I've established my lack of qualifications, I think there is a lot of play to be had with a firstborn only army, but the viability from a competitive standpoint does vary by chapter choice pretty significantly.

With the standard space marine codex, you are sacrificing a lot of strat support to run firstborn options over primaris. One of the places where this is felt the most is losing the defensive strats that help you keep your squads on the table, but it's not something that can't necessarily be designed and played around to a degree. What makes some of the chapters like DA, BA, and SW better suited to firstborn only armies is a combination of unique firstborn units and some additional strat support that isn't primaris focused (but is often keyworded to those chapter specific firstborn units).

I guess the difficulty here is less building a decent firstborn only list which is very doable, and more building a decent list out of what you have available to you without buying anything else.

Terminators with thunder hammers and storms shields are extremely durable even without transhuman. Paired with a medic and possibly another character with rites of war, you've got a unit that can sit in the middle of the board and soak up sickening amounts of firepower (especially in cover) to the point your opponent might not even bother with them.

If you have access to a lot of jump packs, BA sounds like a great option and if you really want to paint yellow, Lamenters are very cool. Vanguard Veterans are one of the absolute best firstborn units and they are turned up to 11 as BA. Death Company are also great too and easily converted with just a paint scheme.

Just some of my observations that may help with list design:

- The board size and GT mission basically require that you have the ability to hold at least one minimally contested home objective and two heavily contested midboard objectives. Holding 2 objectives in a "hold 1, hold 2, hold more" mission from turn 1 onwards will net you 40/45 primary points which I think is an okay target to set for primary. If your list can do this reliably, you are off to a good start.

- Make sure you have a set of secondaries in mind while picking and choosing units to include. You probably want to aim for 30/45 secondary points and you may need to sacrifice killing power to get some utility units whose sole contribution will be performing an action like deploy scramblers in your opponents DZ. 2 man squads of barebones company vets are great for things like this.

- 36" is long range on 9th ed boards. It's rare that you'll ever actually need Lascannons or missile launchers for their range. 24" on a multi-meta will give you more threat range than you might expect.

- Try to be judicious with loading up on characters. With Space Marines, spending the points on another unit of elites instead (Van Vets for example) can often give you more options at the table. If that character doesn't have a critical role in helping you score primary or secondary points, it might be worth cutting. As far as firstborn characters go, playing BA I personally tend to get the most mileage from my JP Sanguinary Priest, and a JP Librarian. I've been able to get by without a captain's re-rolls just fine.

- High mobility is a great advantage in establishing board control early, keeping your opponent guessing and adjusting to losses over the course of the game. A slow army (Terminator heavy for example) might struggle to get out of the gate and is more punishing if you make mistakes in your deployment or need to shift resources to the other side of the board. Van Vets and bikes are great quick response units or plan disruptors that can be used to counter attack in support of your ob sec troops on points or bully fringe objective holders

- Smaller boards make deep striking easier to screen out. Don't expect to be able to drop down big squads of terminators or Van Vets into really attractive charge ranges. Especially against Orks, Necrons, IG or similar armies.

- Blast is pretty overrated as a threat. With the exception of a few things in the game that can really abuse it (plasma inceptors), moving past the 5 man msu isn't going to hurt you too badly if you have a compelling reason to. You can always combat squad a 10 man squad if you show up and find you are facing something that's going to eviscerate them.

 Kommisar wrote:
I personally would do a custom paint scheme and then use whatever rules I wanted to try at that moment. Either way anyone worth playing won’t care what color/rules your using.

The best thing to do is just play and see what happens. I can tell you you’re going to be sad when the devastators get deleted by full payload manticores or everything you plan on moving onto objectives get melted by fusion boats turn 1 though.

Pretty much this. You paint what you want and play what you want. Especially if you're not planning to play any tournaments. If you want to play banana yellow DA, anyone who argues with you over it isn't worth playing with in the first place as they've obviously forgotten the first rule of any casual game: FUN.

As for losing squads quick, yeah you're gonna face that sometimes. Especially in a Strike Force size game. As Sobie mentioned, you usually won't need the 48" range on Lascannons on current size boards. The big exception however is the aforementioned long range Support Vehicles that sit in the back of your opponents deployment zone. Lascannons are amazing for picking off those backline annoyances that your opponent would never let you get within 36" of without being Charged. Especially if you have 4 of them at 3+ hit rolls with rerolls from auras and stratagems. Your opponent will know this as well however, and they will try to get rid of them before they can do their job. They are especially vulnerable to alpha strikers though, so make sure to keep them screened somehow.

You all make a good point re: play whatever rules you want regardless of paint. I’ll need to look through more of the subduction specific rules and see if one grabs me.

In terms of playing what I have vs not buying more: I’m not *opposed* to buying more stuff, it just so happens that I’ve got a pile of marines that aren’t being used at present, and they’re all firstborn (well, I do have 10 intercessors). I’ve got the parts to build firstborn in pretty much whatever configuration or load out and I’m willing to buy bits for any gaps I may have, I was just trying to figure out the best way to go about building it all without magnetizing literally everything.

Out of curiosity, what is it that’s making Vanguard Vets such a powerhouse? I see a lot of chatter about single lightning claw and a storm shield, which would give 4 attacks each on a charge and some pretty beefy saves. Is this the only load out that’s especially notable?

 Porphyrius wrote:

In terms of playing what I have vs not buying more: I’m not *opposed* to buying more stuff, it just so happens that I’ve got a pile of marines that aren’t being used at present, and they’re all firstborn (well, I do have 10 intercessors). I’ve got the parts to build firstborn in pretty much whatever configuration or load out and I’m willing to buy bits for any gaps I may have, I was just trying to figure out the best way to go about building it all without magnetizing literally everything.

Out of curiosity, what is it that’s making Vanguard Vets such a powerhouse? I see a lot of chatter about single lightning claw and a storm shield, which would give 4 attacks each on a charge and some pretty beefy saves. Is this the only load out that’s especially notable?

Is there a subset of armies that you are confident you are going to run into more often than others? That might help focus in recommendations on heavy/special/combi weapon loadouts for tactical squads and others.

As far as picking between the special weapons, their isn't one obvious best choice across an army. You'll need to consider what the unit's role within your army will be.

Melta can be really good for beefy high wound elite units and vehicles without invulnerable saves, but it's not going to have the volume of fire to kill through more numerous horde armies. 12" range on the standard melta is not useless, but often leaves you exposed to an easy charge if you are trying to avoid it and makes getting into range of choice targets difficult on foot slogging infantry either due to speed or running into screens. Best used on a mobile unit set up to hunt down and destroy high value targets. Don't expect them to get off more than round of shooting at an optimal target before they are killed away.

Firstborn plasma options trade away a point of AP, strength (when not supercharged), and spikable high damage output vs the melta for a little more volume of fire (rapid fire vs assault) and 24" range. They have the strength to wound up to T6 on 3s without supercharging (T7 with) which makes them excellent at combating elite units with good armor saves (supercharging gives crucial D2) and killing light vehicles. If you play against a lot of marines or T5 Necrons, plasma is a good flexible option.

Grav is a bit quirky. It has a very usable 18". It also just enough strength and good AP combined with a damage boost to D2 when targeting 3+ saves that it can kill marines efficiently without the risk of death by plasma supercharge. It's still potentially being able to double shoot (at a less good 9") for weight of fire. For special or combi-weapons, plasma is probably the better option. I like the heavy Grav's 36", 4 shot, profile a lot though and find it a compelling alternative to heavy bolters.

Flamers are good for clearing T3/T4 screens or obsec with weaker armor saves. -1 AP in tactical doctrine really helps in this regard. They can also serve as a charge deterrent with their auto hit in overwatch and frankly that might be the only attractive reason to pay for them over just taking the free bolter. These won't scare multi-wound/good armor saves/T5+. Can be interesting against armies like Harlequins that want to charge you, are T3, and have an invuln that doesn't care about AP anyway. Heavy flamers are largely the same story but with a bump in AP and strength.

If I'm not going to magnetize units equipped with combis/specials , I'd lean into the flexibility of plasma and selectively incorporate some melta where it makes sense. Personally I'd avoid confusing the squad's role and mixing within a single unit.

On the point of Vanguard Vets, they are a Swiss army knife. The storm shield and lightning claw give them durability that keeps them around and also retain attack output. They re-roll wounds so can overcome their S4 against T5-7 through weight of attacks. Chapter quirks like BA +1 to wound can make these even better. That's basically the good all rounder option. Swapping the lightning claw for thunder hammer or powerfist let's them go hunt down really tough, high wound stuff, but you probably want captain's re-rolls or some other source of +1 to hit to counteract the native -1 to hit of those weapons.

If you really just want to blend things, dual lightning claws or the poor man dual chainsword are options but are vulnerable to fire on the way in. The beauty of Van Vets is that not everybody needs get a stormshield. Just sprinkling a few into a squad can give 80% of the durability of a whole squad with them along with added attack output.

Thank you again for your detailed responses! I don’t really know exactly what to expect in my local meta. The local store has an active community, but I don’t know what everyone plays. And while I don’t want to magnetize everything, magnetizing just special weapons is probably reasonable. I’ll have to think about it; honestly I might have enough supplies to just make a few each of meltas and plasma, at least.

I was looking a bit at Blood Angels rules and I have always liked the idea of a more in-your-face marine army. They also love jump pack units, which I happen to have tons of. So currently I’m thinking I’ll work on converting up my firstborn into a variety of Lamenters. I’ve probably got enough stuff to make some nifty looking “Sanguinary Guard” and VVs for them.

Nice! Lamenters in the fluff are a little more codex looking than BA so it would make sense for them to have a less flashy Sanguinary Guard making your kitbashing job potentially a bit easier.

If there is one unit worth magnetizing in my opinion, it's Vanguard Vets. I swap their loadouts pretty regularly.

I've got a game lined up this weekend against my friend's primaris Raven Guard successors. I was considering playing Necrons, but now this thread has got me thinking about trying a firstborn only BA list to see how it stacks up!

Report back if you do! I’d love to hear about it.