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Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




UK

I’ve just started reading The Devastation of Baal.

Dante has just sent away the geneseed with some aspirants and a few sanguinary priests to ensure the Blood Angels survive.

But what would happen if a chapter was somehow destroyed. For example, say The Salamamders were completely wiped out, no geneseed no tech, nothing left. Would a successor chapter take up the name and livery? Or would their line officially end?

 
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Tribune




Bath

 General Kroll wrote:
I’ve just started reading The Devastation of Baal.

Dante has just sent away the geneseed with some aspirants and a few sanguinary priests to ensure the Blood Angels survive.

But what would happen if a chapter was somehow destroyed. For example, say The Salamamders were completely wiped out, no geneseed no tech, nothing left. Would a successor chapter take up the name and livery? Or would their line officially end?



the following is a spoiler form the War of the Beast:

Spoiler:


this has already happened.

during the War of the Beast, an ork attack on Terra basically wipes the Imperial Fists out. I believe they are reduced to a single Marine (a captain i think). the events that lead to their death also involved the Fists bacially calling thier 2nd founding chapters back in order to re-form the VIIth Legion (the 2nd founding was, i believe, still in living memory at this time, most of these chapters still had members of the original Imperial fists legion in them). at the end of the War, these 2nd founding chapters basically donate some marines each to rebuild the Fists. its somewhat contentious even then, and heavily implied it couldn't be done later in the timeline as the 2nd founding chapters were already significantly diverging form the Fists.




So, theirs one known answer.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think if a first founding chapter were wiped out in the grand scheme of things it wouldn’t matter. I mean it would be a loss of military force but chapters are lost and new ones created. I think one of the ideas I’ve read in some fluff is that most imperial citizens don’t know for sure if astartes are even real and not just a myth and some wouldn’t have even heard the myth
   
Made in us
Manhunter





Sticksville, Texas

... Isn't there a geneseed bank on Terra of every Legion anyways, which was how the original Primaris were created.

Really don't think it would be too hard to just pop out more Primaris using that geneseed, and have the new marines learn under another Chapter before reforming a Founding Chapter with an entirely fresh batch of Marines.

But, say that didn't exist, I really only feel that the Second/Third/Ect Founding Chapters would be potentially devastated emotionally by the blow. Some wouldn't, as they may not agree with their Founding Chapter to begin with, but having a part of a Successor Chapter's history and background erased by the death of their parent chapter could be hard. A lot of relics would be lost, and potentially relics of their Primarch.

While other Chapters that dealt with them would likely have to change supply routes, find somebody else to cross train or compete with... really don't think the galaxy would notice very much.

Marines are only so prevalent in the story telling because we are on the outside looking in, and almost all the media thrust at us focuses on the sale of Marines. If I was on a death world, in the Guard, a ganger on Necromunda, or a factory worker... it would not matter to me anyways, as Marines are rare legends told in folklore and myths to the vast majority of humans in the Imperium.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/11 21:27:54


 
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






The loss of a first founding chapter would be a huge loss to the Imperium.

First off a chapter going extinct is a big deal and it's very rare that one dies out completely. Losing at least a thousand Astartes plus equipment, their chapter fleet, and whatever fiefdoms they may have would seriously hamper the Imperium. A Space Marine takes a long time to become an effective fighter, something that is seen with the early Primaris engagements where they suffered high casualty rates because most had never seen real combat. It took Cawl 10k years to build the Primaris project and not every chapter got instant Primaris reinforcements or even the ability to make Primaris Marines. If you lose a thousand hardened warriors and their powerful weapons then you have a big problem. Some chapters like the Black Consuls and Soul Drinkers have been revived thanks to the Primaris project but they don't have chapter veterans to lead them and teach them to be good warriors.

If a first founding chapter was lost, the morale effect on the Imperium would also be extensive. If the Ultramarines were to be wiped out, sure there would be 999 other chapters still around but the prestige of the Ultramarines means their loss would have a much greater impact. They are the propaganda Astartes, the chapter all citizens know the name of, and losing them would shake the core of the Imperium. The Blazing Swords chapter is wiped fighting Orks, toll the Bell of Lost Souls. The Ultramarines or Imperial Fists have been destroyed by Orks, the Imperium goes into crisis mode. The events of the Devastation of Baal should give an idea of how important a founding chapter is to their successors as IIRC only a few chapters didn't heed the call to save Baal and of them, only a few did it out of spite. In the grand scheme, Space Marines might seem insignificant next to the billions of billions of humans in the Imperium but it's not just about numbers. Necromunda had a rebellion following the opening of the Great Rift and the mere presence of a fleet lead by Guilliman in orbit made it stop. Hive Helsreach survived invasion thanks to the Black Templars who fought alongside the Steel Legion to help boost morale and keep the population fighting the Orks. A Space Marine is as close to the Emperor as any Imperial citizen will get and the effect they have on mortals is never to be underestimated.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/11 23:05:46


 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

Either great rejoicing if a Traitor Legion was wiped out.
Immense mourning if Loyal.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Gert wrote:
The loss of a first founding chapter would be a huge loss to the Imperium.

First off a chapter going extinct is a big deal and it's very rare that one dies out completely. Losing at least a thousand Astartes plus equipment, their chapter fleet, and whatever fiefdoms they may have would seriously hamper the Imperium. A Space Marine takes a long time to become an effective fighter, something that is seen with the early Primaris engagements where they suffered high casualty rates because most had never seen real combat. It took Cawl 10k years to build the Primaris project and not every chapter got instant Primaris reinforcements or even the ability to make Primaris Marines. If you lose a thousand hardened warriors and their powerful weapons then you have a big problem. Some chapters like the Black Consuls and Soul Drinkers have been revived thanks to the Primaris project but they don't have chapter veterans to lead them and teach them to be good warriors.

If a first founding chapter was lost, the morale effect on the Imperium would also be extensive. If the Ultramarines were to be wiped out, sure there would be 999 other chapters still around but the prestige of the Ultramarines means their loss would have a much greater impact. They are the propaganda Astartes, the chapter all citizens know the name of, and losing them would shake the core of the Imperium. The Blazing Swords chapter is wiped fighting Orks, toll the Bell of Lost Souls. The Ultramarines or Imperial Fists have been destroyed by Orks, the Imperium goes into crisis mode. The events of the Devastation of Baal should give an idea of how important a founding chapter is to their successors as IIRC only a few chapters didn't heed the call to save Baal and of them, only a few did it out of spite. In the grand scheme, Space Marines might seem insignificant next to the billions of billions of humans in the Imperium but it's not just about numbers. Necromunda had a rebellion following the opening of the Great Rift and the mere presence of a fleet lead by Guilliman in orbit made it stop. Hive Helsreach survived invasion thanks to the Black Templars who fought alongside the Steel Legion to help boost morale and keep the population fighting the Orks. A Space Marine is as close to the Emperor as any Imperial citizen will get and the effect they have on mortals is never to be underestimated.


Devastation of Baal is a real bad example, because the multiple chapters lost and massive casuality rates were hand-waved away with a snap of the primaris fingers.
The loss of chapters came across as trivial.
Its also fairly impossible to truly lose a major chapter, because of the geneseed banks elsewhere, potential donors (though that was a problem for Woofs and Sallies, but not anymore with primaris founding descendants), and the sheer production capacity of a Forgeworld compared to the needs of a SM chapter. Arming a thousand men even with the best equipment isn't really an issue for planet-wide industries, no matter how much they like to pretend otherwise.

The 'training issue' was something that vanished fairly quickly. At worst they're somewhat tactically inflexible, but so are most SM in general.


What DoB should illustrate is the worrying tendency of the First Founding chapters to still acting as a rally point for their successors. At this point Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists (War of the Beast) and even Ultramarines (because Roboute, if nothing else) are clearly still de facto Legions, even if they don't admit it and carry a riot of different color schemes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 00:52:06


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




UK

Thanks for all the answers so far. I really need to check out War of The Beast next I think.

 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

It seems to be one of those areas that has been retconned a fair bit, so not sure what the latest on it would be.

None of these are founding chapters, but you did previously have a fair few examples of chapters being wiped out, or really damaged to the point where they cease to be functioning.
Both the Scythes of the Emperor and Lamenters were wiped out by Tyranids at one point. Can't remember which of these featured in the really old Ian Watson Space Marine book - one of the two. Graham McNeil referenced in a short story years later, on a Chaos world the protagonist encounters a renegade Scythes of the Emperor marine - or one that used to be in that chapter before they were wiped out.
I had thought that the Lamenters were a chapter that had been destroyed similarly although again not sure if that has been retconned. That seems to have happened a lot over the years, if you think originally the Crimson Fists were meant to have been destroyed (the seminal artwork on the cover of Rogue Trader showing their last stand, as the final missiles come in). But again this has been lessened in impact over the years, to the point where the novel written about them almost managed to turn it into a Dunkirk-style victory by the end of the story.




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Well, I'm sure Cawl would pop out and Mcguffin some crazy Mcguffin Geneseed out of his Mcguffin pockets, and mcguffin a whole new 1st founding legion in a few months.
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






Spoiler:
Voss wrote:
 Gert wrote:

Devastation of Baal is a real bad example, because the multiple chapters lost and massive casuality rates were hand-waved away with a snap of the primaris fingers.
The loss of chapters came across as trivial.
Its also fairly impossible to truly lose a major chapter, because of the geneseed banks elsewhere, potential donors (though that was a problem for Woofs and Sallies, but not anymore with primaris founding descendants), and the sheer production capacity of a Forgeworld compared to the needs of a SM chapter. Arming a thousand men even with the best equipment isn't really an issue for planet-wide industries, no matter how much they like to pretend otherwise.

The 'training issue' was something that vanished fairly quickly. At worst they're somewhat tactically inflexible, but so are most SM in general.


What DoB should illustrate is the worrying tendency of the First Founding chapters to still acting as a rally point for their successors. At this point Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists (War of the Beast) and even Ultramarines (because Roboute, if nothing else) are clearly still de facto Legions, even if they don't admit it and carry a riot of different color schemes.


Overall the introduction of Primaris was as badly done as the launch of AoS but even so,
Spoiler:
8 chapters were wiped out at Baal, 6 lost almost all of their number and the remaining chapters were down to at least half strength. The Sanguinary Guard, the best Blood Angels, were left with one member post-Devastation. Expanding upon what's seen in DoB in multiple other sources, the Primaris reinforcements are untested and by the time of the events seen at the "beginning" of 9th, it's been about 20-30 years give or take, and even then many Primaris are still considered lesser compared to many Firstborn, at least in terms of service. Losing the trained and tested core of a chapter and replacing it with essentially initiates with new armour and fancy guns isn't going to have the same combat effectiveness.

Also, the Ultima founding chapters weren't made from nothing. Cawl had 10k years to build up enough Primaris to give most chapters a boost and found some new ones. The recruitment and training process is still the same as well, an initiate isn't immediately inducted from trainee to Space Marine, they still have to pass the chapter trials and then be a Scout first.
As for the bit about many first foundings being de-facto Legions. The first founding chapters are the purest source of gene-seed outside of the Primarchs themselves, the vaults on Terra can only hold so much and when it's gone it's gone. If the call goes out to protect the source of your warriors and your spiritual homeland then you're probably going to help. The BA has only united as a "Legion" once and that was at the DoB, they called conclaves but that was to maintain the brotherhood they shared and in one case to prevent the death of the Blood Angels after some shenanigans involving Fabius Bile. The Dark Angels are only a "Legion" within the Inner Circle (which is limited to Chapter Masters, Company Masters, Librarians, Chaplains and the 1st and 2nd companies) and only unite to hunt the Fallen. The Fists ended the Last Wall protocol after the War of the Beast and only come together to compete in the Feast of Blades, which again is to promote brotherhood and co-operation. The Ultramarines have the most successors of any other gene-line and are the creators of the entire Codex system that the majority of chapters are built upon. Ultramar is run by the Ultramarines and their successors as it has been since the days of the Great Crusade so they would naturally have good relations with most of their descendants. No successor can be ordered by their founding chapter to do anything, which by default makes them not a Legion. Space Marines assist most other forces due to debts, pacts, favours and requests for aid but if the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines requests help to defend Ultramar then you are hardly going to deny him.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 13:07:07


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




You should really Spoiler that post. The OP stated he is currently reading the book.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






On a grand scale: basically nothing. 1000 marines is about as militarily effective as, let's be super generous here and say 500,000 guardsmen. Which is probably the imperial tithe from one single hive world for one year.

Marines only matter because GW laser-focuses on them. From a practical perspective, the main purpose of Space Marines would just be the propaganda that the imperium can generate from their existence.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





Isn't there some massive geneseed bank on Terra or Mars, which contains a sample of every known chapter's geneseed? I remember reading that every chapter gives some geneseed as a tithe from time to time, so that it can be stored (and checked for chaosy mutations). In theory any chapter could be recreated that way, although the knowledge and traditions would be lost. But for a 2nd founding chapter, I'm sure their descendants would pitch in and at least try to get it back in its original shape.

Here's a funny scenario to think about: a chapter gets completely wiped except for one random brother who was with the deathwatch at the time. Now he's the chapter master by default and has to rebuild with a bunch of guys freshly implanted with whatever geneseed was left in the fridge.
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

 Tiennos wrote:
Isn't there some massive geneseed bank on Terra or Mars, which contains a sample of every known chapter's geneseed? I remember reading that every chapter gives some geneseed as a tithe from time to time, so that it can be stored (and checked for chaosy mutations). In theory any chapter could be recreated that way, although the knowledge and traditions would be lost. But for a 2nd founding chapter, I'm sure their descendants would pitch in and at least try to get it back in its original shape.


There are meant to be several, but a lot of them have been lost -
Spoiler:
the novel "Storm of Iron" deals with an Iron Warriors raid on one
.

Geneseed is only part of it - if their homeworld is lost they have no recruits, and for some Chapters (Salamanders & Space Wolves) they can't recruit from anywhere else.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, I'm sure Cawl would pop out and Mcguffin some crazy Mcguffin Geneseed out of his Mcguffin pockets, and mcguffin a whole new 1st founding legion in a few months.


Yes. I keep forgetting that this has been done to the background now...


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I mean, it's essentially the GW equivalent of Marvel's It was the Skrulls all along!, or We invented time travel, but a weird complex time travel that lets us completely re-write that pesky cannon.

Spoiler:

It's just GW saying ok, we are completely re-writing the cannon and going to be lazy about it. It's literally the entire last chapter of Dev of Baal. Everything is screwed, the grandpappy of all Blood Thirsters is about to split the world in two, and Hey Presto, Gman shows up with an entire NEW legion and saves the day.
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






"Saved at the last moment" is not a new concept to 40k, I assume it's just because it's Primaris and Guilliman that people rag on it all the time now.

In DoB it's brought up that the loss of one of the successor chapter ships meant that a Librarium of knowledge gathered over thousands of years is lost forever. That's an important side effect of the death of a chapter. Each Marine is more than just a warrior, they are artists, poets, blacksmiths, statesmen, etc. Each chapter wiped out is another lost culture that will likely never be revived.
After the events of DoB, everything is worse, not better. The Red Scar (i.e. where the Blood Angels and some of their successors live) is now barren and useless due to Leviathan and the Blood Angel's attempts to prevent Leviathan from consuming the worlds within the Scar. The Blood Angels and their successors aren't dead but they've still taken massive losses fighting the Nid's. Leviathan isn't gone and has seeded itself in the Scar. The PA book Blood of Baal tells what happens post-DoB and I'll not spoil it but the general point is, despite the Primaris giving a quick boost of forces, the chapters of the Blood are still in a fight to the death with Leviathan in Imperium Nihilus.
   
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I have to go back and re-read it, but I thought the psychic shock of Cadia and the whole Eye of Chaos going to 11 caused the Hive Mind of Leviathan to literally die. Which is what caused all the nids on Baal to go insane?
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






I think you're vastly underestimating the size of a Hive Fleet. Leviathan is the largest fleet to invade the Milky Way so far and launched tendrils from beneath the Galactic Plane, striking in hundreds of locations at the same time. Leviathan tendrils attacked worlds across the galaxy, with one tendril heading straight for Terra itself, and it took immense measure to even slow their advance. Inquisitor Kryptman sentenced thousands of worlds to Exterminatus to prevent their consumption and even manufactured the entire Octarius War between the Ork empire of Octarius and Leviathan, acts for which he was excommunicated and branded a traitor. Leviathan was one of the big "End Times" factions pre-Great Rift and only the Rift tearing the galaxy in two provided a brief reprieve from its assaults. Only one tendril attacked Baal and there are hundreds more left in the Galaxy.
Spoiler:
It is even assumed Leviathan attacked Baal specifically to take revenge on the Blood Angels for defeats in the past.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 19:22:23


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Sweden

It would be recreated from existing geneseed stock, perhaps by pulling successor chapter members into it in order to quickly replenish ranks and save face. First founding chapters have enormous prestige and mythological connotations with the very founding of the Imperium.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 19:58:46


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nobody would even know, the Imperial Censors would cover it up until they could rebuild it, or just purge it from the historical records entirely and pretend it had never existed to begin with.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
Nobody would even know, the Imperial Censors would cover it up until they could rebuild it, or just purge it from the historical records entirely and pretend it had never existed to begin with.



I agree, the loss would not be mourned, the failure would be concealed


Automatically Appended Next Post:
People are only made into martyrs if there is something to gain from it for someone in the imperium.

The loss of a first founding chapter could be so demoralising to a populace that it could de stabilise a whole system and cause an uprising.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 20:44:54


 
   
 
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