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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Inspired by this thread: Are there any old rules that you remember fondly?, I thought we'd do a similar discussion. Going back to earlier editions of the game, what are some rules that you found distasteful, frustrating, unappealing, etc?

I'll share a few to get the ball rolling:

Formations & allies - call be a purist, but in standard games I like the notion of just having one basic detachment pulled from one codex. No allies to leverage weird wombo-combos, no formations to provide power creep escalations. Just a nice simple detachment will do.

Random charge distances - introduced in 6th edition (and here since). I much prefer fixed charge distances.

Casualty / wound allocation in most editions - I don't think GW did this very well back then. It seems a little better now, but in complex situations the ruleset is really murky with how you are supposed to do it, short of rolling one dice at a time, which is annoying.

Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Oh yes wound allocation:

Wound allocation in 5th i think with nob bikers especially.
That was NONSENSE.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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Not Online!!! wrote:
Oh yes wound allocation:

Wound allocation in 5th i think with nob bikers especially.
That was NONSENSE.

That's what I was going to say too.

Also the lack of "obscuring"-like terrain from 5th through 8th.

Many of the 7th ed Psychic powers.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Insectum7 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Oh yes wound allocation:

Wound allocation in 5th i think with nob bikers especially.
That was NONSENSE.

That's what I was going to say too.

Also the lack of "obscuring"-like terrain from 5th through 8th.

Many of the 7th ed Psychic powers.


Honorary mention for formations?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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Dakka Veteran




Random..
- Charge distance
- Warlord traits
- Psychic powers
- Unit abilities (e.g. Possessed)

- Lords of War in regular games
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

I'll second (third?) formations. Just a way to sell specific models. I'll add:

-Champion of Chaos
-Challenges
-The Chaos Boon Table
-LoWs only being allowed in Apocalypse
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





Monsterous Creatures were just so dumb and broken. They didn't feel balanced at all and were just better vehicles.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






+1 for not liking challenges in 6th/7th - too fiddly IMHO.

I'll also add that I don't really like the Hammer of Wrath special rule, especially because nearly every bloody unit got it (jump packs, bikes, jet bikes, cavalry, monstrous creatures, etc.).

In ProHammer we made it so that HoW lets you substitute ONE of your normal attacks for being at Initiative 10.

Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Most of the stuff from 5th onwards.

- Formations
- New MC treatment that made MCs just Vehicles +1
- Changes to vehicle damage chart and addition of hull points
- TLOS rather than more abstracted terrain rules.
- Rules based more in existing factions rather than Your Dudes (e.g. in 3.5 IG, Your Dudes could exist wholly differently than any other dudes. In 5th IG, Your Dudes didn't exist and neither did anyone else. In 6th-7th IG, if any rules for regiments came out at all they were for pre-existing regiments (e.g. cadian formation in 7th). In 8th and 9th, Your Dudes can kind of sort of exist like 3.5 but miss out on relics, WLTs, special orders, and special characters).

And most importantly:
- Losing track of abstractions. If "this guy fights betterer after a charge" is Furious Charge, then Hammer of Wrath (this guy slaps better after charging) doesn't need to exist. They're abstracting the same phenomenon generally (i.e. "charging = good for this unit") Like Ogryns having Hammer of Wrath instead of Furious Charge - what really changed there, abstraction wise?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/27 16:08:58


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





When individual units had about 10 universal special rules on their datasheet
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Cynista wrote:
When individual units had about 10 universal special rules on their datasheet


Boy you must hate 9th edition.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
- Rules based more in existing factions rather than Your Dudes (e.g. in 3.5 IG, Your Dudes could exist wholly differently than any other dudes. In 5th IG, Your Dudes didn't exist and neither did anyone else. In 6th-7th IG, if any rules for regiments came out at all they were for pre-existing regiments (e.g. cadian formation in 7th). In 8th and 9th, Your Dudes can kind of sort of exist like 3.5 but miss out on relics, WLTs, special orders, and special characters).


I don't understand what you mean above.

By "your dudes" do you mean having special faction rules that let you customize units in flexible ways so that your army might have a unique combination of special rules associated it? Is that right? And is this something you DO like or DON'T like?

Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 Mezmorki wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
- Rules based more in existing factions rather than Your Dudes (e.g. in 3.5 IG, Your Dudes could exist wholly differently than any other dudes. In 5th IG, Your Dudes didn't exist and neither did anyone else. In 6th-7th IG, if any rules for regiments came out at all they were for pre-existing regiments (e.g. cadian formation in 7th). In 8th and 9th, Your Dudes can kind of sort of exist like 3.5 but miss out on relics, WLTs, special orders, and special characters).


I don't understand what you mean above.

By "your dudes" do you mean having special faction rules that let you customize units in flexible ways so that your army might have a unique combination of special rules associated it? Is that right? And is this something you DO like or DON'T like?


It's something I do like.

I mean like the I.G. Doctrines system in 3.5-4th, where Your Regiment could be utterly different from any other regiment or could be drawn from a more generic Imperial Guard list which didn't have Doctrine boons but also didn't have Doctrine maluses.

In 5th edition and throughout 6th, doctrines disappeared (except for a weird entry on vets) so the 28th Karelian Air Defense Regiment finally found itself utterly indistinguishable from the 4th Chortaxi Foot Hordes (or regular Cadians and Tallarn for that matter).

In 7th, Doctrines still disappeared but you got a Cadian-only formation (so you'd better play Cadians folks).

In 8th and 9th, Doctrines are back (ish, in a worse way than they were implemented earlier) but you still lose out on several fronts for having Your Dudes instead of a preestablished GW faction.
   
Made in us
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Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Cynista wrote:
When individual units had about 10 universal special rules on their datasheet


Boy you must hate 9th edition.

6th and 7th were much worse than now
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'll second (third?) formations. Just a way to sell specific models. I'll add:

-Champion of Chaos
-Challenges
-The Chaos Boon Table


Oh man these hit me right in the jewels.

Challenges were fun as a kid, but such a huge pain in the ass later on. Chaos just made it so much more painful.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






-Instant death. I hate all the random 'break points' that existed in old 40k. I also hated the old AP system as well. A space marine commander could take like 40 shots to the face from an autocannon, but hit him with a krak missile and BLAMMO, instantly obliterated.

-Strength D, stomp, etc. All the classic idiocy at the top end of the 5th-7th unit size scale.

-All the ways your close combat units over the editions would sit around doing nothing like dinguses. After deep striking, oh we can shoot but we can't charge. After getting out of a transport, shooting A-OK but no chargesies that wouldn't be fair! After an opponent falls back in 7th onward, we just fething stand there...

-"Eyeing the Terrain" - still makes me chuckle years later after 5th.

-Weapon Skill and Initiative being often totally worthless fluff stats while every point of Ballistic Skill and ranged weapon strength was always useful no matter what, just due to how to-hit charts and initiatives worked.

-All the editions where you basically never left transports except for 5 seconds just before the unit got utterly obliterated, leading to games being 'the models I lovingly painted sit on the side of the table, and the models you lovingly painted sit on the side of the table, and we just play with the Trukks and Rhinos we were required to purchase for every squad because otherwise you stand no chance.' I'm kind of sick and tired of transports sucking ass in 8th/9th but the 'transports are mandatory' editions sucked way harder. I'm just a miniature toy soldier painter at heart, I dont have nearly the same passion for vehicles.

-Dangerous terrain tests. On a 2-5 youre fine! on a 1 youre INSTANTLY fething KILLED BY THAT BUSH (or immobilized for the entire game)

-totally random Vehicle Damage tables with 'functionally nothing' on one and and 'fething instantly killed' on the other. IMO a semi-random VDT system can be fine and dandy, but I would want a lot more of a sliding scale than what we had in previous editions. I'd be fine with small arms only really being able to mildly inconvenience a tank/monster on a really good roll and needing to have a dedicated AT gun to actually bring 'em down, but I wouldn't have it be a flat D6 roll.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






The Fallback rule: Ruined an allready unbalanced 8th edition, and stops 9th from being GREAT it should have been a rule were players roll against each other in one way or the other. Instead they made the most garbage stratagem and maximum wounds taken per phase rules for some of the centerpiece models... what a joke.

Ramming rule in 7th No one really knew how it worked.


6000 World Eaters/Khorne  
   
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 Brutallica wrote:
The Fallback rule: Ruined an allready unbalanced 8th edition, and stops 9th from being GREAT it should have been a rule were players roll against each other in one way or the other. Instead they made the most garbage stratagem and maximum wounds taken per phase rules for some of the centerpiece models... what a joke.

Ramming rule in 7th No one really knew how it worked.



Ahhh yes, ramming. That rule and soulfire were the peak of old ed rules comedy.

Also the second edition Regulation Standard Elephant.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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In My Lab

Soulfire, yeah! That rule never did a damn thing, but took up a lot of time.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Cynista wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Cynista wrote:
When individual units had about 10 universal special rules on their datasheet


Boy you must hate 9th edition.

6th and 7th were much worse than now


Really? My Keeper of Secrets has:
Daemonic
Shining Aegis
Ritual Knife
Sinistrous Hand
Daemonic Ritual
Delicate Precision
Greater Daemon
Mesmerizing Aura
Quicksilver Swiftness
Psyker
Locus of Swiftness

which is exactly 11 "abilities" on the datasheet - now granted, some of them are granted by wargear options which are mutually exclusive, but if we include loadout then we're dropping two rules to remember but adding three more:
Living Whip
Witstealer Sword
Snapping Claws

for a total of 12 rules to remember on a regularly-kitted Keeper of Secrets. Add in the Exalted keyword (from the stratagem) and you get two more that aren't even on the datasheet (from the list of Realm Racer, Quicksilver Reflexes, Blessing of the Dark Prince, Lightning Flayer, Battle Rapture and Fearseeker).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/27 16:43:39


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Insectum7 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Oh yes wound allocation:

Wound allocation in 5th i think with nob bikers especially.
That was NONSENSE.

That's what I was going to say too.

Also the lack of "obscuring"-like terrain from 5th through 8th.

Many of the 7th ed Psychic powers.


True. If there haven't been units like nobs who exploited those rules it would have been fine. Major mistake on the rules team which created those units.
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Cynista wrote:
When individual units had about 10 universal special rules on their datasheet


Boy you must hate 9th edition.


Ill agree with the OP on this, I hated just seeing a list of special rules, especially if they were stupid ones that didn't apply to the model itself. Plus you had to go look them up. Plus they may have worked in a very unintended way that granted some sort of super ability (IE monstrous creature) that the unit did not warrant. I remember some really wacky rule breaking stuff because of the universal special rules and how easily it was abused, especially when it came to independent characters supercharging the unit they join because one of their USRs were poorly worded. Whilst the wall of rules can occasionally become overwhelming in 8-9th edition at least those rules can be tailor made for the model itself and not just trying to shove a square peg into a round hole of rule making.

17,000 points (Valhallan, Cadian, and Vostroyan)
10,000 points
4,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 4 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 5 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"

-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer 
   
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In My Lab

 generalchaos34 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Cynista wrote:
When individual units had about 10 universal special rules on their datasheet


Boy you must hate 9th edition.


Ill agree with the OP on this, I hated just seeing a list of special rules, especially if they were stupid ones that didn't apply to the model itself. Plus you had to go look them up. Plus they may have worked in a very unintended way that granted some sort of super ability (IE monstrous creature) that the unit did not warrant. I remember some really wacky rule breaking stuff because of the universal special rules and how easily it was abused, especially when it came to independent characters supercharging the unit they join because one of their USRs were poorly worded. Whilst the wall of rules can occasionally become overwhelming in 8-9th edition at least those rules can be tailor made for the model itself and not just trying to shove a square peg into a round hole of rule making.
That'd be great, if GW actually DID that. As-is, we still have USRs, they're just called different things.

I do agree that it's a good move to print rules text on the datasheets, but even that's gone by the wayside on modern Dexes.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 generalchaos34 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Cynista wrote:
When individual units had about 10 universal special rules on their datasheet


Boy you must hate 9th edition.


Ill agree with the OP on this, I hated just seeing a list of special rules, especially if they were stupid ones that didn't apply to the model itself. Plus you had to go look them up. Plus they may have worked in a very unintended way that granted some sort of super ability (IE monstrous creature) that the unit did not warrant. I remember some really wacky rule breaking stuff because of the universal special rules and how easily it was abused, especially when it came to independent characters supercharging the unit they join because one of their USRs were poorly worded. Whilst the wall of rules can occasionally become overwhelming in 8-9th edition at least those rules can be tailor made for the model itself and not just trying to shove a square peg into a round hole of rule making.


Using the Keeper of Secrets datasheet from before, here are ones that I still have to go look up in 9th edition:
Daemonic
Daemonic Ritual
Locus of Swiftness
Quicksilver Swiftness
Any from the Exalted keyword (listed above).
(not to mention the datasheet itself which isn't even in the codex).
Any psychic powers I have.

And if you think that there are no unexpected, unintuitive, or unintended interactions in the current rulesset I have an ATV Attack Bike to sell you - brought back to life by an Apothecary.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/27 16:44:13


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Stacking minus to hit modifires and gigantic flyer bases blocking you out of being able to reach objective. Made me think that flyers shouldn't be actual units in w40k, but something more kin to a orbital barrage stratagem or something similar.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 generalchaos34 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Cynista wrote:
When individual units had about 10 universal special rules on their datasheet


Boy you must hate 9th edition.


Ill agree with the OP on this, I hated just seeing a list of special rules, especially if they were stupid ones that didn't apply to the model itself. Plus you had to go look them up. Plus they may have worked in a very unintended way that granted some sort of super ability (IE monstrous creature) that the unit did not warrant. I remember some really wacky rule breaking stuff because of the universal special rules and how easily it was abused, especially when it came to independent characters supercharging the unit they join because one of their USRs were poorly worded. Whilst the wall of rules can occasionally become overwhelming in 8-9th edition at least those rules can be tailor made for the model itself and not just trying to shove a square peg into a round hole of rule making.


Using the Keeper of Secrets datasheet from before, here are ones that I still have to go look up in 9th edition:
Daemonic
Daemonic Ritual
Locus of Swiftness
Quicksilver Swiftness
Any from the Exalted keyword (listed above).
(not to mention the datasheet itself which isn't even in the codex).
Any psychic powers I have.

And if you think that there are no unexpected, unintuitive, or unintended interactions in the current rulesset I have an ATV Attack Bike to sell you - brought back to life by an Apothecary.


The attack bike is a pretty stupid one but at least its a certain kind of stupid thats not easy to pull off. I get some universal stuff being the same across an army (ie Demonic, Bolter Drill, etc) because its not going to change and theres no reason to reprint it. Those rules are part of what makes the army unique at least. Really Daemonic is not much different than Shield of Faith for sisters but its 5++ vs 6++ since thats what each army needs to define its function. I did not know about the other ones but I can see why spells are not on the sheets since they are there to add flavor.

17,000 points (Valhallan, Cadian, and Vostroyan)
10,000 points
4,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 4 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 5 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"

-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer 
   
Made in us
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Central California

All of the above plus:

A single great CC unit mowing down half of a 6 foot tables worth of army in a single assault phase. You think fight (or shoot twice) strats are bad now? (they are, and need to be eliminated, but...)

Watching an opponent use a specially cut tool to place his entire army, model by model, 1.9999999999" apart to avoid extra damage from templates. Love the idea of a template, it just does not work if people do not want it to.

massive units of 2+ invulnerable save models with rerolls. (Oh wait, this is creeping back in...)

Entire armies starting off the board. (oh wait, that is almost back in a certain specific way...)

Lack of objective style games that allowed your army to line up on a board edge and roll the shooting phase. (ok this is a play style that was encouraged by the rules, but not really a rule...)

PS: I enjoy these threads, as much for the old rule ridiculousness, as the people who like to argue with someone else's opinion.

Keeping the hobby side alive!

I never forget the Dakka unit scale is binary: Units are either OP or Garbage. 
   
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VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander





Mississippi

Many things, but the initial rules for Flyers were quite frustrating.

It never ends well 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Cynista wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Cynista wrote:
When individual units had about 10 universal special rules on their datasheet


Boy you must hate 9th edition.

6th and 7th were much worse than now


Really? My Keeper of Secrets has:
Daemonic
Shining Aegis
Ritual Knife
Sinistrous Hand
Daemonic Ritual
Delicate Precision
Greater Daemon
Mesmerizing Aura
Quicksilver Swiftness
Psyker
Locus of Swiftness

which is exactly 11 "abilities" on the datasheet - now granted, some of them are granted by wargear options which are mutually exclusive, but if we include loadout then we're dropping two rules to remember but adding three more:
Living Whip
Witstealer Sword
Snapping Claws

for a total of 12 rules to remember on a regularly-kitted Keeper of Secrets. Add in the Exalted keyword (from the stratagem) and you get two more that aren't even on the datasheet (from the list of Realm Racer, Quicksilver Reflexes, Blessing of the Dark Prince, Lightning Flayer, Battle Rapture and Fearseeker).

But those aren't USR's. You can read exactly what they do there in your codex, unlike the USR era, which was the whole point. And the KoS is an outlier, there are a few like that in 9th but not as many as previous editions - yet.

Keywords are kind of like USR's though, just better implemented
   
 
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