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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Simple question - What purpose does this Core Stratagem have?
And No, this isn't related to the 'Next' thing.


I am still relearning, so I might be overlooking something but the order of operations seems to be 'You Fight, I fight, You Fight, I fight.' A Stratagem that allows you to select an Eligible Unit to fight with, after your opponent has already attacked, seems to mimic the default order of events anyway... all for the price of two Command Points. While I can envision a handful of niche situations where two sequential attacks might be possible, most Rules seem to avoid that with the good old 'attack now, attack again at end of phase' trick or simply allowing the unit to be picked a second time during the default I-you-I process.

A few examples might help me understand just what this Stratagem does.

8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
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Chicago, IL

What purpose does this Core Stratagem have?

It can interrupt units that have charged and or have fight first abilities.

So if your opponent has two or more units with fight first or that have charged, you can use Counter-Offensive to attack right before your opponent selects his second unit to fight with. Normally that unit would fight before you got to select a unit.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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Germany

But only if you have eligible units. There are rules which make your units uneligible.
   
Made in ca
Enginseer with a Wrench






Lets say that two of your enemy units have completed a charge and are now in engagement range of two of your units. Normally both of your enemies units would be able to fight before either of yours but if you use this stratagem after one of the two enemy units fights you can select the unit that hasn't been attack yet and fight with it first.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





In a lot of games you will find that combat does not last longer than a single turn, either because no units survive or because one of the sides wants to fall back. This means that it is common to be in a situation where most combats involve units that have charged. The active player is therefore likely to do a lot of damage by fighting with their units first, but their opponent can attempt to mitigate this by using the counter-offensive stratagem to cripple or kill some enemies before they can do anything.

Just by existing, this stratagem forces the active player to think carefully about what order to activate units, and it can even make them second-guess themselves when deciding how many units they want to charge with in the first place. It therefore has a significant impact on the entire game, even if you never use it.

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Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
But only if you have eligible units. There are rules which make your units uneligible.
It goes without saying that the unit that uses Counter-Offensive has to be an eligible unit, It literally says as much in the Strat.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Rulebook wrote: This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.
- Charging Units Fight First


How does Counter-Offensive overcome this Restriction?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 07:05:19


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 JinxDragon wrote:
Rulebook wrote: This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.
- Charging Units Fight First


How does Counter-Offensive overcome this Restriction?


By telling you that after one of those has fought you can pick a unit to fight next. It’s an interrupt mechanic. Adds a little tactical spice.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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Vanished Completely

If you are forbidden from selecting a unit which did not make a charge move, or possesses Fight First I must ask:
How are you selecting such a Unit, due to Counter-Offensive?

Just because a Rule gives you permission to make a selection, you still have that Restriction on what you can select!


Do note:
This is simply Rule as Written exercise, at no point would I ignore the clear intention simply because a Rule is poorly written.
It could have simply allowed you to give one of your Units 'Fight First,' which then allows it to be selected normally....

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 07:18:31


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in ca
Enginseer with a Wrench






 JinxDragon wrote:
Rulebook wrote: This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.
- Charging Units Fight First


How does Counter-Offensive overcome this Restriction?


The strat says that you select one or own eligible units to fight first. To be eligible a unit only needs be in engagement range, though a unit can only fight once baring special rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JinxDragon wrote:
If you are forbidden from selecting a unit which did not make a charge move, or possesses Fight First I must ask:
How are you selecting such a Unit, due to Counter-Offensive?

Just because a Rule gives you permission to make a selection, you still have that Restriction on what you can select!


Do note:
This is simply Rule as Written exercise, at no point would I ignore the clear intention simply because a Rule is poorly written.


Specific overrides general. The specific exception of the strat overrides the general fighting order rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 07:17:12


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Unless it references the Restriction, the 'General Rule,' how is it a specific over-write?

This reminds me of too many past debates when Games Workshop gave vague 'exceptions' and people could wriggle if X or Y was 'specific enough' to count... often to some hilarious broken situations. As for Counter-Offensive - I don't really see any situation where this would matter, the intention is very clear here given how they worded 'eligible' in a previous section, but this is some very poor terminology! As one of my first glimpses through the 9th edition Rulebook, all I can do is smile because Games Workshop is still Games Workshop... the game is secondary to the sale of Models, and it shows.

Thank you all for the examples, and a reminder that I need not a fine-tooth comb for these rules... for madness lies that way!

Although, a follow up question, just for madness sake:
If Counter-Offensive's 'Eligible Unit' is all it takes to trump the 'General Restriction' within Charge....
How does that interact with the Restriction of 'one fight per phase,' which is as 'general' as they come?

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 07:50:08


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

You’re now reaching off into other stuff. You asked for an explanation and now have one. The rule specifically allows you to interrupt. It makes no mention of being able to fight more than once, so does not override this restriction.

FWIW GW rules do not stand up to laser-beam lawyer scrutiny, but this one is reasonably clear as to what it does, and now it’s been explained I hope you can square it away.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 08:03:25


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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Vanished Completely

Nor does it mention the Fight First restriction when it says select an Eligible Unit.
We do agree that it has to interrupt Fight First situations, or otherwise be entirely pointless.

8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in gb
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Cardiff

 JinxDragon wrote:
Nor does it mention the Fight First restriction when it says select an Eligible Unit.
We do agree that it has to interrupt Fight First situations, or otherwise be entirely pointless.


It doesn’t mention it as Counter Offensive grants “Fight next, instead of where you normally would”, and that can happen at any point. Just needs to be eligible to Fight.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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Vanished Completely

Can you use Counter-Offensive to Select a Unit within Engagement Range that has another Rule stating 'Can not be Selected to Fight?'

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 09:13:15


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in de
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Germany

You can only pick an eligible unit. If, for whatever reason, the unit is not eligible, it cannot be selected with the counter offensive stratagem.
   
Made in gb
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Cardiff

 JinxDragon wrote:
Can you use Counter-Offensive to Select a Unit within Engagement Range that has another Rule stating 'Can not be Selected to Fight?'


No. Counter Offensive can’t do that. Rulebook FAQ page 3 covers this.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 JinxDragon wrote:
Can you use Counter-Offensive to Select a Unit within Engagement Range that has another Rule stating 'Can not be Selected to Fight?'


Yes, because a unit that can not be selected to fight may still be Eligible to fight.

Example: A unit is eligible to fight if it is within engagement range of an enemy unit or has made a charge move.
A unit cannot be selected to fight until after charger's have fought.
A unit that has not made a charge move and is within engagement range of an enemy unit, where an enemy unit has charged, is therefore Eligible but Cannot be Selected. They are valid targets for Counter-Offensive.

Edit: likewise, if a unit is within engagement range, has not made a charge move *and* is affected by the Space Marine Judiciar's Tempormortis ability, they are *not* eligible and cannot be selected for Counter-Offensive. A unit that has been hit by a Whirlwind's "Suppression Fire" cannot be selected but Eligibility is unaffected, and therefore can use Counter-Offensive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 13:45:37


 
   
Made in gb
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Cardiff

If a unit cannot be selected it is not eligible, ergo no go.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 JohnnyHell wrote:
If a unit cannot be selected it is not eligible, ergo no go.


This is incorrect, unless you can show me the rule I missed. If that were true, then Counter-Offensive literally can do nothing, except in corner cases where you charged outside of your own turn.

Edit: to clarify my point:
Page 74 of GT2020 book
This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that make a charge move have fought

if we take the bolded part to mean are not eligible to fight
Then Counter-Offensive, which states,
Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next

would not be able to target units that have not charged.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 14:17:58


 
   
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Rihgu wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
If a unit cannot be selected it is not eligible, ergo no go.


This is incorrect, unless you can show me the rule I missed. If that were true, then Counter-Offensive literally can do nothing, except in corner cases where you charged outside of your own turn.


From the Main Rulebook FAQ (page 3)(mentioned by JohnnyHell in a previous post):

*Pages 361-362 – Rare Rules, Always Fight First/Last
Add the following paragraph to the end of this Rare Rules entry:
‘Note that the Counter-offensive Stratagem requires you to select
a unit that is eligible to fight. This means that if a unit is under
the effects of a rule that says that it is not eligible to fight until
after all other eligible units have done so, you will not be able to
select that unit to use the Counter-offensive Stratagem.’
   
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Rihgu wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
If a unit cannot be selected it is not eligible, ergo no go.


This is incorrect, unless you can show me the rule I missed. If that were true, then Counter-Offensive literally can do nothing, except in corner cases where you charged outside of your own turn.

Edit: to clarify my point:
Page 74 of GT2020 book
This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that make a charge move have fought

if we take the bolded part to mean are not eligible to fight
Then Counter-Offensive, which states,
Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next

would not be able to target units that have not charged.
Charging merely grants you additional ability to fight before other units (that have not charged, etc) can be activated, in addition to being eligible to fight.

Being unable to be selected to fight at a certain instance =! ineligible to fight.

Eligibility to fight follows a different criteria (which is within engagement range and/or have charged).

Do note, that a unit can start the fight phase within engagement range with a unit but may not be able to fight in that phase - in other words, units' ability to be 'selected to fight' can be 'stolen' away from them via clever wound allocation:

Example: 20 Boyz (on 25mm base, lined up in two rows of 10 each, all spread out @ max coherency) are caught in a pincer assault, charged by Unit A and Unit B from two opposite ends. Unit A & B are now within engagement range of the Boyz, and vice versa. The three units now have the "eligibility to fight" at the bottom of charge phase.

Going into Fight phase, Unit A, having charged, is selected to fight first and Boyz suffer 4 unsaved wounds. Boyz are now removed from the battlefield as casualties. The controlling player removes their Boyz, starting from model closest to Unit B. Removing 4 models have left the Boyz formation into two rows of 8 model long lines. By removing the models in such fashion, it has now left Unit B ~6+ inches away from the unit of Boyz, which is a distance that cannot be made up via 3" pile in. Unit B is no longer eligible to fight, despite having charged and was granted 'fight first' capabilities, because it is no longer able to fulfill the requirements of the steps that comprise "Fight" (core ruls pg 21)
FIGHT
When you select a unit to fight, it first piles in, then the models in the unit must make close combat attacks, and then the unit consolidates

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 17:38:30


 
   
Made in us
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Unit B is no longer eligible to fight, despite having charged and was granted 'fight first' capabilities

This is incorrect. Unit B would still be eligible to fight, as they had made a charge move that turn.

They can also be selected to fight, wherein they would pile-in 3", find nothing in range to attack, and then consolidate 3".

From the Main Rulebook FAQ (page 3)(mentioned by JohnnyHell in a previous post):

*Pages 361-362 – Rare Rules, Always Fight First/Last
Add the following paragraph to the end of this Rare Rules entry:
‘Note that the Counter-offensive Stratagem requires you to select
a unit that is eligible to fight. This means that if a unit is under
the effects of a rule that says that it is not eligible to fight until
after all other eligible units have done so, you will not be able to
select that unit to use the Counter-offensive Stratagem.’

This is talking about eligibility. If it was talking about rules that make a unit unable to be selected to fight, under which circumstances would you be able to use Counter-offensive then?
   
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[Cannot be selected to fight until all other units eligible to fight first has fought] =! [not eligible to fight until after all other eligible units have done so]

Eligibility to fight and ability to be selected to fight are two different things.

You need [eligibility to fight] in order to be [selected to fight] with; if you are [selected to fight] with, then you must've had the [eligibility to fight].

The common wording for fight last temporarily removes this [eligibility to fight]. Because you temporarily do not have the [eligibility to fight], you cannot be [selected to fight] with until the [eligibility to fight] has been reinstated (i.e. "after all eligible units have fought").

Also, if you cannot make legal melee attacks, then you cannot fight. If we were to stretch your interpretation, that's like saying "if I apply a rule that gives a unit the ability fight first to a unit, despite not having charged or be within engagement range, then I can pile in with this unit, elect not to fight (because I can't due to not having any eligible targets), then consolidate." You just got a free 6" move.

IIRC, the rare rules FAQ clarifies that if two units with polar abilities (always fight first vs always fight last), they cancel each other out as if neither rules were in effect, whereas counter-offensive stratagem cannot do the same.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 16:57:11


 
   
Made in us
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 skchsan wrote:
[Cannot be selected to fight until all other units eligible to fight first has fought] =! [not eligible to fight until after all other eligible units have done so]

Eligibility to fight and ability to be selected to fight are two different things.

Also, if you cannot make legal melee attacks, then you cannot fight. If we were to stretch your interpretation, that's like saying "if I apply a rule that gives a unit the ability fight first to a unit, despite not having charged or be within engagement range, then I can pile in with this unit, elect not to fight (because I can't due to not having any eligible targets), then consolidate." You just got a free 6" move.

IIRC, the rare rules FAQ clarifies that if two units with polar abilities (always fight first vs always fight last), they cancel each other out as if neither rules were in effect, whereas counter-offensive stratagem cannot do the same.


This has been the case since 8th.

The "Which Models Fight" heading on the same page indicates that "only the models in that unit that are either within Engagement Range of an enemy unit, or that are within 1/2" of another model from their own unit that is itself within 1/2" of an enemy unit, can fight"

Which means that even in a single unit there are models which can make melee attacks and which cannot make melee attacks. In order to "first pile in, then the models in the unit must make close combat attacks, and then the unit consolidates", then... every single model would have to be in Engagement Range of an enemy unit or within 1/2" of another model within 1/2", otherwise not every model can follow the directive "must make close combat attacks".

You select a unit that is eligible to fight, it piles in, there are no enemy units to direct attacks to, so you follow the rules for Which Models Fight, and then you consolidate.

edit: this also appears to be off-topic to the Counter-Offensive discussion, as it doesn't relate to unit eligibility or selection. Maybe we should open a new thread to discuss?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 17:01:22


 
   
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Rihgu wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
[Cannot be selected to fight until all other units eligible to fight first has fought] =! [not eligible to fight until after all other eligible units have done so]

Eligibility to fight and ability to be selected to fight are two different things.

Also, if you cannot make legal melee attacks, then you cannot fight. If we were to stretch your interpretation, that's like saying "if I apply a rule that gives a unit the ability fight first to a unit, despite not having charged or be within engagement range, then I can pile in with this unit, elect not to fight (because I can't due to not having any eligible targets), then consolidate." You just got a free 6" move.

IIRC, the rare rules FAQ clarifies that if two units with polar abilities (always fight first vs always fight last), they cancel each other out as if neither rules were in effect, whereas counter-offensive stratagem cannot do the same.


This has been the case since 8th.

The "Which Models Fight" heading on the same page indicates that "only the models in that unit that are either within Engagement Range of an enemy unit, or that are within 1/2" of another model from their own unit that is itself within 1/2" of an enemy unit, can fight"

Which means that even in a single unit there are models which can make melee attacks and which cannot make melee attacks. In order to "first pile in, then the models in the unit must make close combat attacks, and then the unit consolidates", then... every single unit would have to be in Engagement Range of an enemy unit or within 1/2" of another mdoel within 1/2", otherwise not every model can follow the directive "must make close combat attacks".

You select a unit that is eligible to fight, it piles in, there are no enemy units to direct attacks to, so you follow the rules for Which Models Fight, and then you consolidate.
If less than [all models in the unit] (i.e.[some models in the unit]) were legally able to make attacks, then the statement 'models in the unit must make close combat attacks' has been fulfilled. Note how the rules do not state "all models in the unit must make CC attack."

If no models in a unit were legally able to make attacks, then you cannot fulfill the said condition.

This example was only brought up to highlight the fact that [eligibility to fight] and [selected to fight] are related, but distinct mechanics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rihgu wrote:
This is talking about eligibility. If it was talking about rules that make a unit unable to be selected to fight, under which circumstances would you be able to use Counter-offensive then?
Counter-offensive can be used to interrupt normal order in which units eligible to fight (those that charged first, then those that are within engagement range). So, it's essentially 'fight first in the fight phase as if you've charged' stratagem. The stratagem cannot be used to cancel out abilities that remove this eligibility to fight, because the stratagem can only be used on units that have the eligibility to fight.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 17:20:14


 
   
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Question:
... a rule that says that it is not eligible to fight until after all other eligible units have done so... - FAQ


Can someone provide an example of a Rule which specifically removes Eligibility?
As opposed to the more common wording I have found, which is simply 'Cannot be selected to fight....'

Cause, from where I am sitting, that Frequently Asked Question just made things a lot worse for the 'interrupt Charge' concept....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 17:28:29


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
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 JinxDragon wrote:
Question:
a rule that says that it is not eligible to fight until
after all other eligible units have done so...


Can someone provide an example of a Rule which specifically removes Eligibility?
As opposed to the more common wording I have found wish is simply 'Cannot be selected to fight....'


Space Marine Judiciar - Tempormortis
Foul blightspawn - Putrefying Stink
Drazhar - Tormentor.

Counter-offensive can be used to interrupt normal order in which units eligible to fight (those that charged first, then those that are within engagement range). So, it's essentially 'fight first in the fight phase as if you've charged' stratagem. The stratagem cannot be used to cancel out abilities that remove this eligibility to fight, because the stratagem can only be used on units that have the eligibility to fight.

Right. This is what I am saying. Well, not quite but that's pedantic nuance I think. I think we have an understanding (you and I) on how it is applied, but others who say Eligibility and "able to be selected to fight" are the same thing would need to explain where Counter-offensive can be used.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 17:29:25


 
   
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Examples of the Rules please, I do not have access to all of the books.
I am looking for the wording itself....

8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
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 JinxDragon wrote:
Examples of the Rules please, I do not have access to all of the books.
I am looking for the wording itself....


Tempormortis: At the start of the Fight phase, you can select one enemy unit within 3" of this model. That unit is not eligible to fight this phase until after all eligible units from your army have done so.
   
 
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