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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






The fundamental problem with Tau for a long time has been that Tau are not allowed to participate in the game outside of movement and shooting, the original conception of the faction as a 'Covenant' style multi-race alien empire has long since been abandoned and Kroot have been completely, utterly outscaled by the the sheer variety of wild and crazy close combat units that exist now.

So now that Tau's longrange shooting have been well and truly outclassed by space marines, I think rather than simply lumping on a ton more shooting power to put them back on top, it'd be healthier for the army as a whole to add in a way to perform a maneuver that is fundamental to 9th edition - namely, charging into a unit standing on an objective, wiping them out, and seizing that objective to hopefully score it at the beginning of your next turn.

I present a new common special rule similar in style to the Poisoned Weapon special rule that Drukhari have on many of their weapons: Crisis.

Crisis weapons are specially designed for use at danger-close ranges to counteract the many deadly melee combat units employed by other races. Units trained to employ Crisis weapons employ a Fire Caste martial art that allows them to fire at extreme close ranges.

If a model equipped with at least one weapon of this type is selected to fight in the fight phase, it may forgo its normal close combat attacks to fire as if it were the shooting phase with all Crisis weapons that did not shoot in the preceding Shooting or Charge phases of the current turn.

^note that the above rule means that Tau units could NOT shoot a unit, charge that unit, and shoot them a second time, nor could they fire overwatch, then select to fight, and fire the same weapon they just overwatched with again. Army-wide overwatch would probably be removed as well to avoid them getting to have their cake and eat it too.

Examples of weapons that would have the Crisis special rule: Pulse Blaster, Pulse Carbine, Burst Cannon, Fusion Gun (and associated heavy forms), Flamer, Cyclic Ion Blaster/Raker, Heavy Burst Cannon. Breachers, Stealth Suits, Ghostkeels, Riptides, and most weapons equippable by Commanders/Crisis Suits would feature the rule.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in de
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I'm no game designer, but it sounds fair from a rough, layman look at it. And it would at least reduce the problems T'au have with the general game design currently.

~5750 build and painted 
   
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Dakka Veteran




I like the core idea a lot. I did something similar for a custom Sept in Kill Team; charges come after shooting, there, so I let them shoot Assault weapons into combat on the turn they charged, and also let them shoot Grenades into combat (for photon combat benefits).

I think I'd suggest keeping Overwatch (albeit with a rework to make it more interesting; perhaps you can only Overwatch for other units, not yourself?) and adding some kind of charge factor to make it more dynamic and force aggressive movement.
   
Made in us
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RevlidRas wrote:
I like the core idea a lot. I did something similar for a custom Sept in Kill Team; charges come after shooting, there, so I let them shoot Assault weapons into combat on the turn they charged, and also let them shoot Grenades into combat (for photon combat benefits).

I think I'd suggest keeping Overwatch (albeit with a rework to make it more interesting; perhaps you can only Overwatch for other units, not yourself?) and adding some kind of charge factor to make it more dynamic and force aggressive movement.


I mean, I was envisioning that For the Greater Good would remain, possibly with "the overwatch stratagem costs 0cp for Tau" as an added bonus. I'm just assuming stuff like New Montka and Armywide Overwatch are kind of super-sloppy band-aid fixes intended to tide the Tau over to a proper rule that would allow them to participate properly in 9th.

This is intended as a rule that would allow them to do that without being dependent on a whole new category of model release, i.e. "just release melee battlesuits" or "just release more kroot" which seems to be the most common responses.

Kroot aren't terrible, as melee units go, but they're utterly, totally outscaled by where 40k is at, at this point. The biggest kroot unit is basically the equivalent of...like a spawn of chaos? in a game where you've got stuff up to 400pt knights, that's nowhere near big enough to claim that tau can rightly have 'melee options.' They have no unit that could even ever come close to pushing even a basic MEQ squad off of an objective using melee.

So basically, the intention here is just to allow Tau to expose themselves to additional risk, without increasing their firepower, in order to claim objectives.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





Would there be a problem in letting them shoot Crisis weapons and then fight with them?

Edit: I'd say give it the old Adeptus Titanicus treatment and make the Fight phase shooting use WS instead of BS. That would give it a sufficient "nerf" without relying on -1s to hit that could be gamed (oh, oops, I charged your unit with an inherent -1 to hit in melee. >) or keeping track of which units fired which weapons in the previous phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 14:05:58


 
   
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In My Lab

Rihgu wrote:
Would there be a problem in letting them shoot Crisis weapons and then fight with them?

Edit: I'd say give it the old Adeptus Titanicus treatment and make the Fight phase shooting use WS instead of BS. That would give it a sufficient "nerf" without relying on -1s to hit that could be gamed (oh, oops, I charged your unit with an inherent -1 to hit in melee. >) or keeping track of which units fired which weapons in the previous phase.
That sounds like a good plan to me.

And to the OP, sounds good as well!

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Rihgu wrote:
Would there be a problem in letting them shoot Crisis weapons and then fight with them?

Edit: I'd say give it the old Adeptus Titanicus treatment and make the Fight phase shooting use WS instead of BS. That would give it a sufficient "nerf" without relying on -1s to hit that could be gamed (oh, oops, I charged your unit with an inherent -1 to hit in melee. >) or keeping track of which units fired which weapons in the previous phase.


I think that would potentially make Flamers on crisis suits a little bit super-powered compared to other Crisis weaponry, and it would make actually utilizing crisis weaponry little more reliable than charging in and attempting to take the last wound or two off of a unit now.

Shooting and then getting to shoot again in melee I would predict would draw a lot of ire and complaints, and make it really REALLY difficult for non-crisis weapon options like presumably missile pods, maybe CIBs to compete with crisis options like fusion.

Doubling the firepower on a unit that charges in I feel would be extremely tough to balance in general.


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





I'm not SUPER familiar with Tau units but aren't they for the most part WS 5+? So if you made their close-combat shooting key off of WS instead of BS it would be a second round of Worse-than-Ork (no dakka dakka dakka) shooting, in which they have also made themselves vulnerable to counterattack, so the cost to do so does seem fairly high.

I think you're right about flamers, though. That would just be a second phase of shooting, and on a unit of 3 Crisis Suits with 9 flamers between them that could be rough...


edit: I guess my main point is I don't think there's anything wrong with letting Tau shoot in 2 phases and the effort of going into close combat on its own is enough of a detriment that it seems like the only time you'd use this ability is if you were sure you were going to finish a unit off (at which point you probably did not use your shooting phase anyways because you wanted to get movement to the objective) or if you wanted to get an ObSec unit on an objective to steal it, so it doesn't seem like a super powerful "I'm going to send a bowling ball of hellfire around the table" move.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 16:43:54


 
   
Made in us
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Right behind you.

Honestly, I'd give Carbines the ability to be fired as a CC attack. I feel like that might be a good start to see where further to go.

Give them a 6 inch "melee" ability, ala the new Lumineth Hurakan Windchargers getting to fire their bows as their combat attack.
   
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Rihgu wrote:
I'm not SUPER familiar with Tau units but aren't they for the most part WS 5+? So if you made their close-combat shooting key off of WS instead of BS it would be a second round of Worse-than-Ork (no dakka dakka dakka) shooting, in which they have also made themselves vulnerable to counterattack, so the cost to do so does seem fairly high.

I think you're right about flamers, though. That would just be a second phase of shooting, and on a unit of 3 Crisis Suits with 9 flamers between them that could be rough...


edit: I guess my main point is I don't think there's anything wrong with letting Tau shoot in 2 phases and the effort of going into close combat on its own is enough of a detriment that it seems like the only time you'd use this ability is if you were sure you were going to finish a unit off (at which point you probably did not use your shooting phase anyways because you wanted to get movement to the objective) or if you wanted to get an ObSec unit on an objective to steal it, so it doesn't seem like a super powerful "I'm going to send a bowling ball of hellfire around the table" move.


Yes, they are ws5+, which is why I think making the bonus shooting attack that unreliable would be a bad way to go. Rather than having charging in being a bonus to damage in addition to the damage you've already one in shooting, the bonus is the fact that you get to move your durable unit onto the objective. That's the problem in the Tau's gameplay right now, not that they dont do enough damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Honestly, I'd give Carbines the ability to be fired as a CC attack. I feel like that might be a good start to see where further to go.

Give them a 6 inch "melee" ability, ala the new Lumineth Hurakan Windchargers getting to fire their bows as their combat attack.


Yep, i included both Carbines and Blasters as Crisis class weapons for that reason.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 17:07:02


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Fair enough. I think a new weapon classification is unnecessary, personally, but rather just giving some of these weapons the ability to be CCWs would work too.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I think Crisis Suits being able to fire their weapons based on their WS value would be a fantastic idea. Helps give slight bite in the opponent's Assault Phase without just making them really good at melee. Also helps with the Farsight Enclave Sept rules (though to be fair they need to be reworked a bit anyway)

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Yeah... I think I would love to see that on the other side of the table! And this is someone suffering from flashbacks from fighting 7th edition tau with chaos space marines XD
I most certainly would have no problem playtesting these proposed rules. do Tau have any sort of fall back and shoot capabilities? I honestly believe the war suits should be due a bit of that maneuverability they had in previous editions. Just not the same as what they had... maybe for once the xenos can rip something off from the marines for once and do it better

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
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A few thoughts:
*On the whole, I like it.
* Despite not letting them basically "double shoot" by charging in on your own turn, a protracted melee engagement would functionally let them shoot on both your own turn and your opponent's (after the first round).
* Making flamers the "good in melee" gun seems like a feature rather than a bug.
* It feels "healthier" if they "shoot" with their WS instead of BS when using this ability. Your opponent is still rewarded for getting into melee with you rather than making tau BS unavoidable.

*While I do like this proposal, I also feel there are other viable ways of helping out Tau. Kroot don't have to go toe-to-toe with wyches and bladeguard to be a viable melee unit. Consider bullgryn who are pretty useful as a melee threat for IG but don't turn IG into a melee army. A modest boost to their Attacks characteristic would go a long way with Kroot.

*You could also do all sorts of mobility shenanigans including simply reintroducing JSJ.

*I very much like that this seems to give carbines a purpose.
   
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So something like...

Crisis
T'au warfare emphasises the flow of combat, using rapid redeployment and combined arms formations to render each squad a crashing wave... or the rock against which it breaks.
Some T'au weapons have the Crisis ability. When a unit is selected to fight in the Fight phase, models in that unit equipped with any Crisis weapons can shoot with those Crisis weapons as if it were the Shooting phase, instead of making any close combat attacks.
  • When a model shoots a Crisis weapon in the Fight phase, it can do so while within Engagement Range of enemy units, and can target enemy units that are within Engagement Range of other friendly units. However, it must target an enemy unit that is within Engagement Range of its own unit.
  • When a model shoots a Crisis weapon in the Fight phase, it uses its Weapon Skill characteristic instead of its Ballistic Skill characteristic. Note that this is still considered a ranged attack for all rules purposes.
  • A model cannot shoot a Crisis weapon in the Fight phase if it made a ranged attack with that weapon in a previous phase that turn.


  • And then strats like...
    Counter and Strike (0 CP)
    T'au - Battle Tactic Stratagem
    When escape is impossible or unwise, the forces of the T'au fall like a tidal wave to eliminate a pinned foe.
    Use this Stratagem in the Charge phase, when an T'AU INFANTRY or BATTLESUIT unit from your army finishes a charge move or a Heroic Intervention. Select one enemy unit within Engagement Range of that INFANTRY or BATTLESUIT unit. Until the end of that turn, friendly T'AU INFANTRY units that are within Engagement Range of the selected unit gain the following abilities:
  • All Assault, Grenade, and Rapid Fire weapons that models in this unit are equipped with gain the Crisis ability.
  • Models in this unit can shoot Crisis weapons in the Fight phase even if they made a ranged attack with that weapon in a previous phase that turn. However, when they do so, they must target the selected enemy unit.

  • Pech'vesa Support (1 CP)
    T'au - Battle Tactic Stratagem
    The Kroot are prized among T'au commanders as a martial race, capable of holding the line with ferocious skill while the Fire Caste focus their fire or redeploy.
    Use this Stratagem in the Fight phase, when a KROOT unit from your army is chosen to fight. Until the end of the phase, that unit gains either the Combined Strike ability or the Covered Retreat ability, shown below:
  • Combined Strike (Aura): While a friendly T'AU INFANTRY unit is within 3" of this unit, each time a model in that unit shoots a Crisis weapon, it can use its Ballistic Skill characteristic instead of its Weapon Skill characteristic.
  • Covered Retreat (Aura): While a friendly T'AU INFANTRY unit is within 3" of this unit, each time a model in that unit makes a consolidation move, it can move up to 6" instead of 3", and does not have to end this move closer to the nearest enemy model.

  • This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/11 12:24:52


     
       
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    An interesting rewrite, though my personal opinion is that the ability should either be:

    -The attack just works the same as a shooting attack, using Ballistic Skill, getting the advantages of Marker Lights, etc etc etc, and you CAN NOT use any Crisis weapon in melee that you've already used that player turn to shoot, overwatch, etc.

    or

    -The attack is counted as a melee attack, using Weapon Skill, and simply changes the weapon to range "melee" rather than what the range normally is, and you CAN use crisis weapons in melee that you've already used that player turn.

    One of the two seems to make the most sense to me. personally I still like the first - it achieves the thing that tau cannot currently do, clear models off of objectives and then have their unit standing on that objective, in exchange for exposing their units to the risks inherent in being in engagement range of enemy units, namely, those units get a chance to fight back. And what it DOESNT do is increase the overall firepower of the unit if they charge into melee.

    I don't think the problem with Tau is that they lack damage. Their weapons need a slight bump to help deal with the new marine wounds stat, shift some things like missile pods from D3 to 2, make rail weapons more useful/reliable like 3d3 damage rather than d6+maybe a MW, stuff like that, but I don't think the problem with Tau is that Flamers can't fight twice if the crisis suit unit charges in.

    At least, looking at current tournament Tau lists that make heavy use of Farsight Enclave flamer crisis suits, it doesnt seem to me like that's the problem tau have atm, the problem is that they can't play the missions well, securing objectives and scoring points is very very very hard.

    "I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

    -the_scotsman"

    -ERJAK 
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




     the_scotsman wrote:
    An interesting rewrite, though my personal opinion is that the ability should either be:

    -The attack just works the same as a shooting attack, using Ballistic Skill, getting the advantages of Marker Lights, etc etc etc, and you CAN NOT use any Crisis weapon in melee that you've already used that player turn to shoot, overwatch, etc.

    or

    -The attack is counted as a melee attack, using Weapon Skill, and simply changes the weapon to range "melee" rather than what the range normally is, and you CAN use crisis weapons in melee that you've already used that player turn.
    Yeah, I originally tried writing it up as the second version, but ran into... well, it takes a Fire Warrior with a pulse carbine from one attack at WS5+, S3, to... one attack at WS5+, S5. It's just barely worth mentioning as a buff. It also means you need to rewrite every single T'au mechanic that references shooting attacks, shooting, ranged weapons, or ranged attacks - which is most of them, for obvious reasons. I tried reworking it as "don't use the Attacks characteristic, use the weapon's Type" but it just got insanely awkward.

    The reason I went with the first version, but kept the Weapon Skill change, is that I'd personally like to avoid it being a flat "melee buff" for T'au, if that makes sense? It also "feels" more appropriate for T'au to being using Weapon Skill when they're struggling in melee. I'd actually prefer for it to allow shoot-then-charge-then-shoot, honestly, for that extra, fragile dynamism. Hell, I'd be down with using Ballistic Skill, but restricting Crisis weapons to working when charging/performing a HI. You could avoid hinky Crisis Suit interactions by just making them VEHICLES, like they ought to be.

    Well, either way, you can use that same wording and just drop the second bullet point (or the third, in my case).
       
    Made in au
    Regular Dakkanaut




    Why not just make battlesuits vehicles? Like that other tread is suggesting. Then they can fire heavy weapons with no penalties and shoot non-blast weapons into close combat.

    Battlesuits are piloted after all. They're basically fancy sentinels.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 06:06:09


     
       
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    Jarms48 wrote:
    Why not just make battlesuits vehicles? Like that other tread is suggesting. Then they can fire heavy weapons with no penalties and shoot non-blast weapons into close combat.

    Battlesuits are piloted after all. They're basically fancy sentinels.


    the principle problem that's currently plaguing Tau (and any army lacking particularly efficient melee choices, like Guard, Thousand Sons and Eldar to some extent) is that the missions in 9th edition require you to START your turn standing on an objective in order to score. Anyone whose main form of damage is done solely in the shooting phase has to contend with the fact that they have a much harder time flipping objectives and being on them at the start of the turn, and you can see those factions that don't have efficient means to do that are scoring extremely low and generally pulling 35-40% winrates.

    The larger tau suits are already MONSTERS, which means they can already shoot guns in melee, that doesn't actually resolve the issue at hand. The suggestion is to remove the army-wide defensive shooting buff (army-wide overwatch) in exchange for allowing the army to participate meaningfully in the Fight phase so that they have the capability to score and so that they move away from the obviously-reviled static gunline playstyle (which is a "Delete Them From The Game!!!111!" level problem for Tau but when Marines blow the enemy off the table from 30" away its fine because some model in that gunline might be holding a sword)

    "I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

    -the_scotsman"

    -ERJAK 
       
    Made in us
    Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






    Right behind you.

    Jarms48 wrote:
    Why not just make battlesuits vehicles? Like that other tread is suggesting. Then they can fire heavy weapons with no penalties and shoot non-blast weapons into close combat.

    Battlesuits are piloted after all. They're basically fancy sentinels.

    By this logic, Space Marines should be vehicles as they "pilot" their Power Armor. :-P

    There's currently two "piloted" Battlesuits: the Stormsurge and the Supremacy Armour. Both utilize actual controls and the like for the operators(and have more than one operator!) rather than the neural linkages that the Crisis, Broadside, Riptide, and Ghostkeel suits all use which broadly are equivalent to the Black Carapace->Power Armor interfacing.
       
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     Kanluwen wrote:
    Jarms48 wrote:
    Why not just make battlesuits vehicles? Like that other tread is suggesting. Then they can fire heavy weapons with no penalties and shoot non-blast weapons into close combat.

    Battlesuits are piloted after all. They're basically fancy sentinels.

    By this logic, Space Marines should be vehicles as they "pilot" their Power Armor. :-P

    There's currently two "piloted" Battlesuits: the Stormsurge and the Supremacy Armour. Both utilize actual controls and the like for the operators(and have more than one operator!) rather than the neural linkages that the Crisis, Broadside, Riptide, and Ghostkeel suits all use which broadly are equivalent to the Black Carapace->Power Armor interfacing.


    in game terms, it is a little silly tbh as the only thing that really interacts with them is they get like, immunity to Haywire and Arc weaponry (but dreadnoughts don't, for some reason) but the drukhari can poison them and want to capture them for their arenas.

    Yessss, capture that rampaging Riptide for our sinister arenas, bwa ha ha, the wyches will fight it with a knife to prove their skill in conquering such a mighty beast!

    Functionally otherwise theyre essentially the same.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 14:16:49


    "I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

    -the_scotsman"

    -ERJAK 
       
    Made in us
    Dakka Veteran




     Kanluwen wrote:
    Jarms48 wrote:
    Why not just make battlesuits vehicles? Like that other tread is suggesting. Then they can fire heavy weapons with no penalties and shoot non-blast weapons into close combat.

    Battlesuits are piloted after all. They're basically fancy sentinels.

    By this logic, Space Marines should be vehicles as they "pilot" their Power Armor. :-P
    By this logic, Sentinels should be INFANTRY, since they walk. :-P

    Now that no underlying mechanics separate the two, the line between MONSTER and "big INFANTRY", or VEHICLE and "extremely mechanized INFANTRY", or VEHICLE and "mechanical MONSTER" is one that has to be drawn relative to other mechanics. Is it better/more sensical for that unit to be affected by the things that affect VEHICLES/MONSTERS, or the things that affect INFANTRY? Personally, for example, I'd say Kataphrons should be VEHICLES; they're effectively a tank with a head, so it makes more sense for them to fear Arc Weaponry, Melta Bombs, Haywire Grenades, or Machine Curses than it does for them to be vulnerable to Poisoned Weapons or be able to squeeze their way through cover. My argument's the same for Crisis Suits, which aren't powered armour so much a piloted vehicle, much like a Sentinel.

    For a clearer example, it's ridiculous that Necron constructs like Spyders are MONSTERS (or Eldar Wraithlords, for that matter) when Sentinels are VEHICLES. If anything, the Sentinels have more squishy bits! It's a relic of a time when Monsters and Vehicles acted in fundamentally different ways, so you had to model the Spyder as a Monster unless you wanted it to have an AV and facing and etc etc. Back in the day, Canoptek Wraiths were Beasts because Beasts moved and acted differently than Infantry/Jump Packs/Vehicles/Monsters. Now they're Beasts because... they look a bit beastly, I guess?

    At the moment, there's definitely an unspoken "lower limit" on what can be a VEHICLE or MONSTER; the "smallest" VEHICLES I'm aware of are still T5/W5 (Penitent Engines, Support Weapons, Reanimators, Kans), T5/W6 (Scout Sentinel, Vyper/Venom, Pirahna, Mek Guns) or T6/W4 (Thunderfire Cannon). There are three T5/W4 VEHICLES I know of, which are the Deffkopta, Grot Tanks, and the Tetra. Crisis Battlesuits and Kataphrons, at T5/W3, and so sit just below the lowest end here. Could always bump them up to T5/W4, but I wouldn't have a problem with them just being VEHICLES at their current stats.
       
    Made in au
    Regular Dakkanaut




     Kanluwen wrote:

    By this logic, Space Marines should be vehicles as they "pilot" their Power Armor. :-P


    Power armour is literally a suit of armour. Not a piloted vehicle. That's why I used a sentinel as a comparison. A firewarrior doesn't "put on" a battlesuit. They climb into the suit and pilot it like a vehicle.
       
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    Right behind you.

    Jarms48 wrote:
     Kanluwen wrote:

    By this logic, Space Marines should be vehicles as they "pilot" their Power Armor. :-P


    Power armour is literally a suit of armour. Not a piloted vehicle. That's why I used a sentinel as a comparison. A firewarrior doesn't "put on" a battlesuit. They climb into the suit and pilot it like a vehicle.

    That last bit is getting into some of the lore discrepancies for Tau, but by and large? No, they do not. They are closer to an Elemental from Battletech or an E-Frame out of ExoSquad than they are a vehicle.
       
    Made in us
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    @RevildRas:
    Agreed. Which is why it probably makes more sense to have "mechanical" and "big thing" keywords than a "vehicle" keyword.

    Mechancial basically asks whether you're more scared of the poison rule or the haywire rule. "Big thing" covers all monsters/vehicles and all the contexts in which they're mechanically distinctive from other units but identical to each other (being able to shoot in melee, etc.)

    Granted, even then things get a little weird. There's a story where a sister of battle's power pack gets damaged and she can't move. There's another story where a jumbo EMP type effects slows down a bunch of iron hands. Would those units qualify as "mechanical?" Seems like they should, but that gets messy...
       
    Made in au
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     Kanluwen wrote:

    That last bit is getting into some of the lore discrepancies for Tau, but by and large? No, they do not. They are closer to an Elemental from Battletech or an E-Frame out of ExoSquad than they are a vehicle.


    I remember from the novel Kill Team, a few of the last chancers have a chance to play with a damaged battlesuit. When they look inside they see foot pedals, joysticks, and a neural link.
       
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    Longtime Dakkanaut




    Jarms48 wrote:
     Kanluwen wrote:

    That last bit is getting into some of the lore discrepancies for Tau, but by and large? No, they do not. They are closer to an Elemental from Battletech or an E-Frame out of ExoSquad than they are a vehicle.


    I remember from the novel Kill Team, a few of the last chancers have a chance to play with a damaged battlesuit. When they look inside they see foot pedals, joysticks, and a neural link.

    The Tau novels give us a pretty good idea what the inside of a crisis suit looks like. There are joysticks, a chair, enough space to cross your legs if you're so inclined, sensors to read your independent eye movements (that's one of the big parts of operating the suits; independent eyeball movements), multiple screens/readouts, and room for a pulse pistol holster built into the chair. Pretty sure they use the term "cockpit" at various points. The suits are definitely more "piloted" than "worn".
       
    Made in au
    Regular Dakkanaut




    Wyldhunt wrote:

    The Tau novels give us a pretty good idea what the inside of a crisis suit looks like. There are joysticks, a chair, enough space to cross your legs if you're so inclined, sensors to read your independent eye movements (that's one of the big parts of operating the suits; independent eyeball movements), multiple screens/readouts, and room for a pulse pistol holster built into the chair. Pretty sure they use the term "cockpit" at various points. The suits are definitely more "piloted" than "worn".


    Exactly, basically everything bigger than a stealth suit should be a vehicle, and all those larger battlesuits that are considered monsters should be reclassified as vehicles as well. It just makes rule interactions much simpler.
       
    Made in us
    Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






    Jarms48 wrote:
    Wyldhunt wrote:

    The Tau novels give us a pretty good idea what the inside of a crisis suit looks like. There are joysticks, a chair, enough space to cross your legs if you're so inclined, sensors to read your independent eye movements (that's one of the big parts of operating the suits; independent eyeball movements), multiple screens/readouts, and room for a pulse pistol holster built into the chair. Pretty sure they use the term "cockpit" at various points. The suits are definitely more "piloted" than "worn".


    Exactly, basically everything bigger than a stealth suit should be a vehicle, and all those larger battlesuits that are considered monsters should be reclassified as vehicles as well. It just makes rule interactions much simpler.


    I kind of disagree with crisis suits being vehicles. Or monsters. Ditto for Commander suits. I do not think they need the ability to shoot in close combat given that they can be armed with 3x flamers, or in the case of commanders, are BS2+ base.

    "I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

    -the_scotsman"

    -ERJAK 
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




    Reviving this topic, as I wanted to review two possible framings:

    Crisis - V1 (Ranged Attacks in Fight Phase)
    T'au warfare emphasises the flow of combat, using rapid redeployment and combined arms formations to render each squad a potential threat at any range.
    When a unit is selected to fight in the Fight phase, models in that unit equipped with any Crisis weapons can shoot with those weapons as if it were the Shooting phase, instead of making any close combat attacks.
  • Each time a model shoots a Crisis weapon in the Fight phase, it can do so while within Engagement Range of enemy units, and can target enemy units that are within Engagement Range of other friendly units. However, it must target an enemy unit that is within Engagement Range of its own unit.
  • Each time a model shoots a Crisis weapon in the Fight phase, subtract 1 from hit rolls when resolving that weapon’s attacks.
  • A model cannot shoot a Crisis weapon in the Fight phase if it made a ranged attack with that weapon in a previous phase that turn.

  • Crisis - V2 (Ranged Weapons Used As Melee Weapons)
    T'au warfare emphasises the flow of combat, using rapid redeployment and combined arms formations to render each squad a potential threat at any range.
    Certain T'au weapons have the Crisis ability. Such a weapon will have an ability that reads ‘Crisis’ and then a value, such as (2) or (D6). Each time a model is selected to fight in the Fight phase, you can choose for it to crisis-fire any or all Crisis weapons it is equipped with. If you do so, until the end of the phase, those weapons have the Melee type instead of their normal type. In addition, do not use that model's Attacks characteristic to determine how many attacks it makes; instead, for each weapon it is crisis-firing, it makes a number of attacks equal to the value listed after the Crisis ability. A model cannot crisis-fire a weapon if it made a ranged attack with that weapon in the same turn.


    Version 1 means you can shoot Crisis weapons as if it were the Shooting phase, but in the Fight phase, at -1 to hit. Upsides are that these count as ranged attacks, so no need to rewrite ranged buffs to be broader, and these use existing rules for those weapons, so no need to introduce new ones. Downside is that the -1 to hit won't stack with other penalties, and it's out-of-phase activity, which always feels a little odd.

    Version 2 means you can attack with Crisis weapons as if they were Melee weapons in the Fight phase. Upside is that this follows all the existing rules for the Fight phase, and still imposes an effective -1 to hit that will stack with other penalties, since T'au WS is usually -1 from BS. Downside is that this means introducing a new value to ensure you can attack twice with pulse carbines, D6 times with flamers, etc. They also don't count as ranged attacks, so any ranged buffs meant for Crisis weapons would need to be broader. Technically this could just be an alternate profile, but this is simpler for, e.g. Strats that grant Crisis (X) to weapons.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 12:54:28


     
       
     
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