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Made in gb
Grovelin' Grot






Hey, i recently got back into playing Warhammer with some friends and I seems to be struggling with dealing with a single unit and i need some advice, I seem to be unable to deal with the pure amount of firepower that they can pump out and it essentially means that I struggle to enter the centre of the battle field without sacrificing 1-2 units of boys at a rough 50-300p loss to my side before i can get to deal with them, the unit setup is typically 20 devourers and 10 flesh borers for shielding. I have been thinking about it and if they decide to take more than 1 unit of them I do not see a way of dealing with them before my army gets massacred (this is compounded by the 2cp shoot-twice stratagem which leads to a almost grantee deal 30m ork boyz unit whilst under a KFF and PB.

Here are some WiP ideas:
Screen with gretchin - This can save me a single turn of fire against my orks but if he is able to clear them e.g. though dakka-rant or other ranged units it will not serve me much protection for 50p

Hold back and Deepstrike a unit of deffdreads forwards as statistically per round of shooting (assuming I'm taking the -1 to hit upgrade) they deal 8 wounds which means 1 dead dread and this only becomes an issue if there are 2 units and they use the strat (this is assuming i fail a charge)

Da-jump a full unit of shoota-boyz to deal an average of 15 wounds to a single unit as a sacrifice and hope I make the charge (if i shoot though he can remove the front units and make the charge less likely to succeed)

All of these seem to be a risk and all are wildly points ineffective if I lose the unit, any ideas?

Note: I dont really want to fully tailor my army around theirs but a small shift around is fine, i tend to run a full horde army with supports such as Ghaz/PB and KFF.
   
Made in us
Roarin' Runtherd




Devilgants are very much a hard counter to large light infantry units, with single mind annihilations on the table, they can pour 180 shots at a target if he maxes them out for it. The best advice I can give regarding is basically steal the bad touch tactic from Tyranid Genestealers and use it on them first. Gants bleed bodies easily, and even grot shooting is somewhat of a threat to them. Point blast weapons at them and cut loose. Also Nobz/Mega Nobz with Kombi-Scorchas or Deff Dreads with Scorchas could do it. Should you Teleport the Deff Dreads they will arrive close enough where tying them down with some cheap melee Deff Dreads is a decent approach. If Grotzookas were 2d6 shots then I'd recommend them.

But outside of an "ambush" with boyz where you can get close due to terrain and surprise them with a charge then there isn't much you can do. Look at the other tools in our codex for deal with them, and funnily enough Nobz with dual choppas in sufficient mass could blender them rather effectively. Ghazzy and Goffs helps here, as he bring those Nobz to 6 attacks each, (Weirdboy works just as well with Warpath) and with Goffs trait in effect, each Nob drops 7 attacks on average, a group of 10 for 170 (245 with Weirdboy) will cut apart those Gants in droves, it'll drop 70 attacks on the charge (60 with an additional 10 on average from Goff Klan trait) and that should hit and wound about 30 times, it'll drop to 25 after their save but that isn't bad
   
Made in gb
Grovelin' Grot






What blast weapons typically would work well? I has a look around the codex and I couldn't really find any effective blasts for the points? I'll have another theory craft session and come back, tyvm for the help


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about a mega dread with 2 saws? Deepstrike, 2 flamers then 3d6 discard the lowest with "Ere we go"? Seems like a real threat to distract them?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 04:43:53


 
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




Try a fw grot mega tank with 7 Grotzookas. It is 90 points for 42 shots against horde that hit on 4, wound on 2... it s a real nice chaff clearer in my opinion... threat range is somewhat limited but 25-30" are usually enough to shoot sth. In the middle of the board.
   
Made in us
Roarin' Runtherd




 sabastionz wrote:
What blast weapons typically would work well? I has a look around the codex and I couldn't really find any effective blasts for the points? I'll have another theory craft session and come back, tyvm for the help


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about a mega dread with 2 saws? Deepstrike, 2 flamers then 3d6 discard the lowest with "Ere we go"? Seems like a real threat to distract them?


I was honestly recommending things like Grotzookas on the Grot Mega tank or a group of grot tanks if they suited you fancy, Grot Mega Tanks are rather easy to scratch build and one loaded up with Grotzookas has a staggering anti horde output, at least if you can't get close to those Devilgants with Boyz, who are honestly my primary anti horde weapons. Perhaps bringing in a weird boy and da jumping the Boyz forward, particularly Evil Sunz Boyz who would only need to roll 8 on the charge to succeed.

But a Grot Mega Tank loaded with Grotzookas, groups of Killa Kanz with the same, who can double duty and fight in melee if needed against larger tyranid gun beasts, or against mid sized bugs.
   
Made in gb
Grovelin' Grot






Hmm, didnt think about grot tanks, I'll look into them thanks
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






There is little info on how to help you. What does your list look like, how many points are you playing? What models do you have available?

Generally speaking, grot tanks aren't great units, and grotzookas aren't great weapons. There are much better things for destroying infantry, for example burna bommers, dakkajets or kustom boosta-blastas.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




Not grot tank - grot mega tank. 90 points for 7 grotzookas... against hordes, with dakkadakka ang grot detachment reroll, thats close to 30 hits wounding t3 at 2 - didn't do the maths but i think the kbb can't compete with that
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






You really should do the math before talking about numbers.

Grot mega tank with 7 grotzookas and a shoota does 15.139 gaunts if 11+ and shuts down to almost nothing when charged or charging and has no culture. 10.278 if the number of models targeted is 10 or less.

KBB with burnin' highway kills 11.041 gaunts and plus another two when charging, plus whatever bonuses it gets from its culture. In combat it can kill another and it can fire everything but the stikkbomb in combat for 10.208 dead gaunts. The KBB also has this output independently from the number of models in the enemy unit.

So it can definitely compete, and it's not completely useless against anything that's not a horde with next to no armor.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/10 10:08:57


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




I really can't reproduce your numbers.

Grot Mega Tank against Horde 42 shots, hitting on 4 --> 21 hits, statistically 7 6es rolled, which means another 3,5 hits with Dakkadakka --> 24,5 hits in total (~28,6 if grot culture), wounding on 2 for 20,4 (or ~24 wounds), killing 17 (or ~20) with the Zookas + another 0,6 for the shoota - that's almost the output the KBB has over the two turns you showed, didn't need a cp and can deal that damage at 18". Against non-Horde, output goes down by 1/3, still killing a full 10 unit (even against 5+ save if grot kulture...). Against SM, you still deal between 3 and 4 wounds, which is not great, but enough to gun down a gravis guy/ bladeguard - imho far from "completely useless", although the KBB deals approx. double the damage against marines. The KBB is faster and slightly more versatile, the Grot tank doesn't need a stratagem, has better output at 11-18"; and has better durability. Oh, and the KBB only has a 22" (+d6 if boosting which reduces the output to 9 dead in shooting, unless you have Bikeboss close which enables charge after advancing) threat range against hordes, whereas the GMT has 25-30", depending on your d6 roll. I think it comes down to playstyle/ rest of the list/ enemy what you prefer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 12:52:55


 
   
Made in us
Grovelin' Grot



Austin


The math clearly shows that grot mega tanks are superior against lightly armored horde. Obviously KBBs are a more well-rounded unit, but that wasn't the question the OP was asking.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 14:59:12


 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






zoltan88 wrote:

The math clearly shows that grot mega tanks are superior against lightly armored horde. Obviously KBBs are a more well-rounded unit, but that wasn't the question the OP was asking.


Also, the reason why he brings up KBB is that it's not like the OP is only facing against a list of purely Devourer gants, so they're going to be better all rounders in handling this particular unit AND anything else he might be happening to bring the Nid list. To discount that shows a lack of tactical forethought in ensuring his list has redundancies to deal with multiple threats. Especially since the OP already said he didn't want to explicitly list tailor.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/10 14:59:41


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






I didn't even prove him wrong. He asked about our opinion on using Thrakka in a deff skulls army and I told him my experience with that was not too hot and asked him why he thought that it was a good idea and wanted to find out what problems he was trying to solve. He then went full ballistic because I dared disagree with him and I put him on ignore. End of story.

This is the reason he is pissed at me, by the way: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3780/790345.page#11087198


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bossdoc wrote:
I really can't reproduce your numbers.

Grot Mega Tank against Horde 42 shots, hitting on 4 --> 21 hits, statistically 7 6es rolled, which means another 3,5 hits with Dakkadakka --> 24,5 hits in total (~28,6 if grot culture), wounding on 2 for 20,4 (or ~24 wounds), killing 17 (or ~20) with the Zookas + another 0,6 for the shoota - that's almost the output the KBB has over the two turns you showed, didn't need a cp and can deal that damage at 18". Against non-Horde, output goes down by 1/3, still killing a full 10 unit (even against 5+ save if grot kulture...). Against SM, you still deal between 3 and 4 wounds, which is not great, but enough to gun down a gravis guy/ bladeguard - imho far from "completely useless", although the KBB deals approx. double the damage against marines. The KBB is faster and slightly more versatile, the Grot tank doesn't need a stratagem, has better output at 11-18"; and has better durability. Oh, and the KBB only has a 22" (+d6 if boosting which reduces the output to 9 dead in shooting, unless you have Bikeboss close which enables charge after advancing) threat range against hordes, whereas the GMT has 25-30", depending on your d6 roll. I think it comes down to playstyle/ rest of the list/ enemy what you prefer.


I generally don't factor in dakka³ because it's the same increase for every model no matter what. When you compare orks to orks, you can just skip it. I realize this is not entirely true because the KBB is using flamers, but they still end up in roughly the same ballpark. The main difference between the two models is that the grot mega tank is slighly more powerful and durable while the KBB is faster and more flexible.

Honestly I just threw their stats into https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/web/, outside of d3 damage weapons their results have been sound, and they do the same math you did in the background.

Doing it by hand the 42 shots are 21 hits, are 17.5 wounds and 14.58 dead gaunts after saves, plus shoota, ending up with the same numbers as I posted earlier.
Against marines I come up with 2.4 dead marines, not stellar either.

In general my point wasn't that the grot mega tank is the worst unit ever, but that it's not out of competition, especially since it's a very one-sided unit with short range.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/10 15:04:25


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






For me,the grot mega tank, equipped with 5 grotzookas, especially if taken in a Grot Mob – Cheeky Zoggerz detachment, is a legit contender for devilgaunt clearing than any other option we have. 5*6 shots make 30 shots, with reroll 1s to hit and DDD we get more or less 20 hits (if no -1 to hit), 16-17 wounds, so like half the gaunt brood is dead.

Legit but not great, because the threat range is 18, and kraken gaunts can movre 6 + 6*2 (with opportunistic advance) and shot with no penalty is onslaught is cast on them. Actually i think i prefer the big shoota version, which can shot safely from 36 away, and sure it won't hit hard, but 21 strengh 5 shots, in a Cheeky Zoggerz detachment, can clear some stuff if you take a few of them.

I think I might convert my looted wagons into grot tanks and try both versions (perhaps big shoota version doesn't have enough power, and grotzooka version not enough range, but lets try it out anyway)

Edit: Jidmah editied his post and his came out before mine. We both see half a dead gaunt unit with grot zooka grot mega tanks, so that is 7*14=98 points of dead devilgaunts. The trade is gooood but you need to get in range, and as I said kraken devilgaunts can stay behind and pounce on them poor boyz.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/10 15:20:48


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






But to give the tank cheeky zoggerz, either his boyz will loose their culture, or he would require another HQ and 2 CP to put them in a second detachment

@addnid: I didn't edit any math, I just fixed spelling errors (I'm somewhat dyslexic) and added the link.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/10 15:23:53


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






 Jidmah wrote:
But to give the tank cheeky zoggerz, either his boyz will loose their culture, or he would require another HQ and 2 CP to put them in a second detachment

@addnid: I didn't edit any math, I just fixed spelling errors (I'm somewhat dyslexic) and added the link.


Yeah I would go for a grot patrol with a weirboy as HQ, then 2 GMTanks and a few smasha gunz, aint really worth it otherwise. Which means playing less boyz. I dunno if 90 or 120 boyz is the sweet spot ATM. Make the got patrol count, so no ore than 90 boyz I think if you go for GMtanks.
They are 10 powerpoints so no outflanking them, and tellyporting them seems too expensive in terms of CP, but perhaps it can be worth it in the right circumstances

BTW I played 2 games saturday against sistas with mass goff boyz (120) and ghaz, lost the first one 07 to 13 (we use the WTC score conversion for team events, the game score was 42 to 60 or something), I think a bit because my rolls were really bad, but what really did me in was 2 major mistakes i made.

I won the second game (I was paired against the same player, my team and the opposing team were practicing for team tournaments, so we played two paired rounds in one day, was awesome !) 14 to 06, just enough to achieve a team draw !! I was very lucky on this game and I exploited well a mistake my opponent made (I placed my mek gunz so as he hid his exorcist tanks exaclty where i wanted to da jump them (he left an opening in hi screening). I was lucky to go first, then lucky to make the charge out of da jumping.
I did feel a bit rusty as I hadn't played a mass boy build in over 3 months, and only played them twice before in all of 9th ed... But I had an absolute blast ! I didn't remember how fast it played despite the numbers, thanks to my movement trays. Each tray carries 5 boyz in a sort of triangle, see below:
-OO
OOO

Who else tried playing that sort of way lately ? What results did you get ? Both in terms of speed and game score results ?

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/05/10 15:50:22


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




But to give the tank cheeky zoggerz, either his boyz will loose their culture, or he would require another HQ and 2 CP to put them in a second detachment


I think if you bring Mek guns (and who doesn't...), the 2 CP for a grot detachment are well spent - rerolling 1s on your smashas + the 6++ is well worth 2 cp over the course of the game. As HQ, I either take Badrukk (rule of cool, and he's decent), a weirdboy (doesn't lose much if I do not intend to take Seizures) or a KFF Mek (also not very dependent on clan traits. so, my grot detachment typically consists of Badrukk, 10 Grots, Grot mega tank and 6 Smashas for slightly less than 500 points.
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






Bossdoc wrote:
But to give the tank cheeky zoggerz, either his boyz will loose their culture, or he would require another HQ and 2 CP to put them in a second detachment


I think if you bring Mek guns (and who doesn't...), the 2 CP for a grot detachment are well spent - rerolling 1s on your smashas + the 6++ is well worth 2 cp over the course of the game. As HQ, I either take Badrukk (rule of cool, and he's decent), a weirdboy (doesn't lose much if I do not intend to take Seizures) or a KFF Mek (also not very dependent on clan traits. so, my grot detachment typically consists of Badrukk, 10 Grots, Grot mega tank and 6 Smashas for slightly less than 500 points.


For a boyz heavy list you want a weirdboy for da jump over badrukk no ? For a buggy list badrukk indeed fits fine in the grot detachment. And he is very cool !

Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in gb
Grovelin' Grot






Hey, quick update in hope of clearing up some question, but first of all, thanks for all the feedback, its greatly appreciated.

Points will be typically 1.5k maybe it will move to 2k but not for a while

I think currently he is playing around with two units of 20 dev 10 FB and a tervigon, and then GS/BL/Trigon for deepstrike.

He normally plays Jormungandr for the tunnel strat.

I preferably don't want to tailor too hard as it seems a bit over the top but tailoring a little bit is fine haha

List of models available: 120 Ork boyz, 5 MANs, 2 Trukks, Ghaz, 10 gretchin, 1 burna-bommer, 5 Nobs, 1 "Grot Mega-Tank" (scratch built so no worry on not using it haha), Warboss. 2 Mek guns

Finally for smaller things while we get money etc.etc. we are fine with proxing a few models to test them out or until we can get hold of them as its a friend group. any other questions feel free to ask, sorry about the slow updates

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/11 03:11:40


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 addnid wrote:
Bossdoc wrote:
But to give the tank cheeky zoggerz, either his boyz will loose their culture, or he would require another HQ and 2 CP to put them in a second detachment


I think if you bring Mek guns (and who doesn't...), the 2 CP for a grot detachment are well spent - rerolling 1s on your smashas + the 6++ is well worth 2 cp over the course of the game. As HQ, I either take Badrukk (rule of cool, and he's decent), a weirdboy (doesn't lose much if I do not intend to take Seizures) or a KFF Mek (also not very dependent on clan traits. so, my grot detachment typically consists of Badrukk, 10 Grots, Grot mega tank and 6 Smashas for slightly less than 500 points.


For a boyz heavy list you want a weirdboy for da jump over badrukk no ? For a buggy list badrukk indeed fits fine in the grot detachment. And he is very cool !


I have found myself skipping da jump regularly. It's great for throwing MANz where you need them, but I prefer walking boyz up the board over coin-flip charge successes.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






My second game against sistas saturday was won thanks to a sucessful da jump, and if it had failed, then the boyz would still have been in a better position than they were prior to jumping. It helps a lot I think to be able to reposition large mobs who move only 5 + advance. But I guess it depends on the type of list your run. You simply cannot play 120 boyz without da jump though, unless you want to pay 2 cp to put one unit in the tellyporta. Even then you don't get the tactical flexibility da jump gives you, ie deepstriking any turn you want. First game it was useless though, so yes I can see how one would want to to ditch it

Also opponents don't deploy the same way when they know that you can't turn 1 charge them. As orks we don't have the raw power some codex have, so we need to make opponents doubtful about how to take us on. You can no use da jump a single time and your weirdboy still makes his points back because he made your opponent put some stuff further backfield.

The burna bommer though can really be... Not great against an opponent who has experience against it, and just accepts to take the MWs up to more or less 120 points worth of value. That is 155 points and 1 cp i have left. Not taking it next time, I want to try more mek gunz with them 120 boyz. I mean the burna bommer can be great I guess ?
Will try it again most def (I have tried it at least ten times now and I am still undecided really)

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/11 12:53:29


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 sabastionz wrote:
Hey, quick update in hope of clearing up some question, but first of all, thanks for all the feedback, its greatly appreciated.

Points will be typically 1.5k maybe it will move to 2k but not for a while

I think currently he is playing around with two units of 20 dev 10 FB and a tervigon, and then GS/BL/Trigon for deepstrike.

He normally plays Jormungandr for the tunnel strat.

I preferably don't want to tailor too hard as it seems a bit over the top but tailoring a little bit is fine haha

List of models available: 120 Ork boyz, 5 MANs, 2 Trukks, Ghaz, 10 gretchin, 1 burna-bommer, 5 Nobs, 1 "Grot Mega-Tank" (scratch built so no worry on not using it haha), Warboss. 2 Mek guns

Finally for smaller things while we get money etc.etc. we are fine with proxing a few models to test them out or until we can get hold of them as its a friend group. any other questions feel free to ask, sorry about the slow updates


To me this sounds like you are well equipped to handle them. The bommer should be able to kill quite a few gaunts by bombing and shooting them and if you already have a grot mega tank, there is no harm in using it as described earlier. For the boyz mobs, you can try adding 10-15 shootas to the back of each mob and remove them first when taking casualties. This will make next to no difference when fighting, but you can pick off some gaunts and genestealers from a distance. If you don't need to advance, remember that Thrakka also has some decent shooting.

Outside of that, MANz are fairly durable against devilgaunts, so you can try tellyporting them in close to where one of the gaunt blobs is and try to tie them down. As you only have two mek guns, it might also be worth running them as kustom mega kannons - they aren't as cost efficient as smashas, but they have more firepower.

The only real dud unit you have is nobz, use them as squad leader or wait for the new codex. If you have MANz boxes, you also should have KFF bits flying around. Magnetize them and give them to a nob as backpack - instant KFF mek. The 5++ from the KFF might also help with approaching the gaunts.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Grovelin' Grot






Ty for all the advice, i think I'll try the shoota boyz in the back, from the few games ice played already i tend to overkill with skarboyz anyway, and sadly they're the og MANz so no spare parts q.q, I always tend to keep the regular nobs out the army as I built then years ago as big choppas as they look amazing, just painting practice I guess haha. I've been taking a KFF as a proxy and it seems to really help in all situations that aren't gaunt + shoot twice strat so I'll be keeping it for sure until I convert one.
Also I think I'll play test a game of full 120boyz with da jump WB instead of a 3 squad army, might just have to go with the "you cant kill more than one unit garuntee a turn so I'll just green tide the other back" strat

Thanks again for the tips
   
 
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