Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Since GW is impossibly lazy when it comes to these guys, I figure i'd throw together some basic, functional rules for them that people might use as house-rules.

TLDR, Fallen go to W2, become troops, go up to 20pts and gain the standard space marine Infiltrator rule, the Fallen Angels rule becomes the Fallen Legion Trait rather than just a rule that Fallen get, and fallen detachments can be constructed as recent renegades, warp-tainted warbands, or leftovers from the Heresy.

The Fallen are a mysterious, varied group of marines, ranging loosely in organization from the original followers of Luther, to warbands fully corrupted by the daemonic forces of the warp, to more recent renegades of the Dark Angels chapter who change their allegiance to align with their former quarry. The Fallen use any and all resources at their disposal in their struggle against their former loyalist brethren.

When creating a detachment of Fallen, the player must choose whether the detachment is RENEGADE, WARP-TAINTED, or HERETICAL.

All Fallen detachments can contain the following units:

-Cypher
-Fallen

RENEGADE detachments add the FALLEN and CHAOS keyword to the following units:



RENEGADE fallen detachments may use Stratagems, Relics and Warlord Traits from Codex: Space Marines, but no chapter-specific options.

WARP-TAINTED detachments add the FALLEN keyword to the following units:



HERETICAL detachments add the IMPERIUM and FALLEN keyword to the following units, and ignore the Martial Legacy rule:



HERETICAL and WARP-TAINTED detachments may use Stratagems and Warlord Traits from Codex: Chaos Space Marines. HERETICAL detachments may use Relics from Codex: Space Marines, WARP-TAINTED detachments may use Relics and Daemon Weapons from Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Detachment Special Rules:

A detachment that contains only units with the FALLEN keyword gains the Fallen Angels special rule: You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for any FALLEN unit when shooting (including when firing Overwatch) as long as the unit did not move in its last Movement phase. In addition, FALLEN units can never lose more than one model as the result of any single failed Morale test; any additional casualties beyond the first are ignored.

Fallen New Datasheet - Troops
M WS BS S T W A LD Sv
4-9 Fallen 6" 3+ 3+ 4 4 2 2 8 3+
1 Fallen Champion 6" 3+ 3+ 4 4 2 3 9 3+

Point Cost: 100pts
The unit contains 4 Fallen and 1 Fallen Champion. It can include up to 5 additional fallen (20pts/model). Each model is armed with a Boltgun, a Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades and Krak Grenades

-Any model may replace their Boltgun with a Chainsword
-Any model may replace their Bolt Pistol with a Plasma Pistol
Up to four fallen may choose one of the following options:
-Replace Boltgun with one item from the Combi-Weapons or Special Weapons list
-Replace Boltgun and Bolt Pistol with two lightning Claws
-Take one item from the Melee Weapons list
One additional Fallen may replace his boltgun with one item from the Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons list
The Fallen Champion may replace his Boltgun and/Or Bolt Pistol with one item from the Champion Weapons list

Bolter Discipline, Hateful Assault

Hidden Infiltrators: When deploying a unit of Fallen, models may be deployed anywhere on the battlefield outside of 9" from enemy units

Not sure I like the idea of Primaris Fallen. They are cast offs from a Legion before Primaris existed. Fallen Intercessors would be weird, it just gets too far away from the Lore.

Also... not sure I like the idea of Fallen as a mechanized force. Dreadnoughts and Land Speeders don't make as much sense, these are a band of rebels who survived the loss of their planet. They're not a full legion with a homeworld, armory, etc. Having all that would probably expose them, they should be operating in secret.

WRT the stats, these are basically Chosen. Happy with that. I'd like to see Fallen units have a Plasma Cannon option, per what comes in the box.

WRT the special rules, good enough for a homebrew legion.

I like this, other than having the same problem with allowing primaris units as Techsoldaten. Also, be careful suggesting that HERETICS should get to ignore Martial Legacy. I've found it makes some people...cranky.

Primaris fallen make indeed not sense.
But it's more effort than GW put into it Scotsman which makes your ruleset superior to GW's.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Primaris fallen make indeed not sense.
But it's more effort than GW put into it Scotsman which makes your ruleset superior to GW's.

Agreed. GW could learn from your determined approach to filling gaps.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Primaris fallen make indeed not sense.
But it's more effort than GW put into it Scotsman which makes your ruleset superior to GW's.

Agreed. GW could learn from your determined approach to filling gaps.

Or actually committing to fallen as a subfaction of CSM which get's some special chosen instead and maybee a slightly diffrent psy and combat style.

Primaris Fallen doesn't seem to make much sense?

Drawing a distinction between RENEGADE and HERETICAL Chaos Space Marine Detachments is a very neat idea, even if I don't understand the distinction between HERETICAL and WARP-TAINTED, but Fallen are a very specific thing.

RevlidRas wrote:
Primaris Fallen doesn't seem to make much sense?

Drawing a distinction between RENEGADE and HERETICAL Chaos Space Marine Detachments is a very neat idea, even if I don't understand the distinction between HERETICAL and WARP-TAINTED, but Fallen are a very specific thing.

Fallen are not necessarily warp tainted. Hence why there is a distinction from scotsman.

And fallen are those that rebelled against the lion so they are basically long war veterans only and not primaris which are something showing up later in the timeline, much later.

Edited to remove primaris options - my understanding of Fallen fluff appears to have been flawed, I thought some of them were more recent renegades but it appears they are all principally operating based on the schism 10k years ago.

So, we have three types of Fallen detachments represented:

1) Fallen sucked into the current era from the Heresy due to the time shenanigans caused by the archaeotech device (HERETICAL)

2) Renegades who fight either for or against the imperium but have not succumbed to chaos corruption (RENEGADES)

3) warp-tainted Fallen who have embraced the chaos gods (WARP-TAINTED)

Actually, now that I've really studied it, Scotsman's distinction between what a HERETICAL and WARP TAINTED Fallen army can have pretty much matches mine for the difference between a CSM force that has embraced the Chaos Gods and one that hasn't. In fact, besides not including Warp Talons, the HERETICAL list exactly matches what I either use or would use in my Night Lords. Bravo Scotsman!

Have you been looking at my army?

According at least to Lexicanum, there may be just as many Fallen operating in present day as there are Dark Angels and their successors. Them having access to basic SM equipment like tanks, bikers, support units and the like makes perfect sense to me at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Actually, now that I've really studied it, Scotsman's distinction between what a HERETICAL and WARP TAINTED Fallen army can have pretty much matches mine for the difference between a CSM force that has embraced the Chaos Gods and one that hasn't. In fact, besides not including Warp Talons, the HERETICAL list exactly matches what I either use or would use in my Night Lords. Bravo Scotsman!

Have you been looking at my army?

I did not include Warp Talons because they have the Daemon keyword. That's all really. I included Raptors because they would have Assault Marines with Jump Packs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, added some quick notes/guidelines about which parts of Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Chaos Space Marines to use for Relics, stratagems, traits and the like.

Obviously these would not represent the exact relics that loyalist Space marine chapters use (and apparently....Pass back and forth between eachother?) but some other relic book, relic chainsword, relic power sword, etc.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Actually, now that I've really studied it, Scotsman's distinction between what a HERETICAL and WARP TAINTED Fallen army can have pretty much matches mine for the difference between a CSM force that has embraced the Chaos Gods and one that hasn't. In fact, besides not including Warp Talons, the HERETICAL list exactly matches what I either use or would use in my Night Lords. Bravo Scotsman!

Have you been looking at my army?

I did not include Warp Talons because they have the Daemon keyword. That's all really. I included Raptors because they would have Assault Marines with Jump Packs.

It was a joke. But I think you can understand why I absolutely HATE Martial Legacy now?

But that's beside the point. Love what you've done here.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Fallen are not necessarily warp tainted. Hence why there is a distinction from scotsman.

Sure, I get that, but to my mind you can divide "Heretic Astartes" into two broad categories:

Renegades are those Chapters who've ditched/been ditched by the Imperium, and are operating without broader infrastructural support, but haven't actually drunk the Chaos kool-aid; they might have newer gear than the Traitor Legions due to raids or defecting quite recently, they might tolerate mutations and heretek, and they might employ human combat troops to bolster their numbers, but they're not going to be summoning daemons or fielding Chaos Spawn en-masse. They might have a few Cult Marines or equivalents, a forbidden relic or two, or a Librarian who performs sorcery, but that's about it. This category covers Relictors, Astral Claws, Ashen Claws, Venom Thorns, and so on.

Heretics are those Chapters who've signed up to the Chaos Gods, either through sincere worship or just living in the Eye of Terror/Maelstrom long enough that they don't care. They'll lack newer gear, and are usually fewer in number relative to Renegades of the same original size, but have full access to the powers of the Warp, ranging from daemon summoning to hellforged vehicles to sorcery to Cult Marines and Possessed and Obliterators.

The Renegade/Heretical Detachments here seem to be very similar, with Warp-Tainted filling the "Heretical" role, so I'd suggest ditching Heretical or moving it to the "Warp-Tainted" slot.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Edited to remove primaris options - my understanding of Fallen fluff appears to have been flawed, I thought some of them were more recent renegades but it appears they are all principally operating based on the schism 10k years ago.

So, we have three types of Fallen detachments represented:

1) Fallen sucked into the current era from the Heresy due to the time shenanigans caused by the archaeotech device (HERETICAL)

2) Renegades who fight either for or against the imperium but have not succumbed to chaos corruption (RENEGADES)

3) warp-tainted Fallen who have embraced the chaos gods (WARP-TAINTED)

Traditionally, Fallen have been portrayed 2 ways:

- outcasts from their destroyed planet, scattered through space and time, operating in isolation, sometimes allied with other Chaos forces

- rebels combatting the excesses of the Imperium, inspiring heroic / futile acts of resistance within Imperial populations (at least in the case of Cypher)

More recently, fluff has included some pretty vivid descriptions of a full Fallen force liberating Luther from the Rock. They have the ability to mysteriously vanish and were lead by a Daemon Prince named Marbas with some unique traits.

It's clear where you're going with the different types, but I do wonder if it really reflects the lore. One issue I see is that CSM themselves don't strictly differentiate between renegades and warp-tainted forces. Another has to do with Primaris and the Fallen - aren't they in the same situation, in some ways? They're both removed from their original time and place and still possess the original animus we associate with the Heresy. It's hard to see them playing nice under any circumstances.

Might I suggest this approach to bridging the gap (at least for the purposes of discussion?)

- Errant: traditional Fallen units for use in Chaos armies.

- Renegade: Cypher becomes available as an HQ choice for any Space Marine / Guard army. Fallen / dedicated transports can be included as troops without breaking battle forged rules.

- Ascendant: Luther and Marbas get datasheets become available as HQ choices, along with Cypher, for CSM armies. Fallen become a troops choice, Deathwing Knights become a Heavy Support choice and Ravenwing Bikers become a Fast Attack choice. Fallen as a faction gets LTs, WLTs, Stratagems and unique detachments.

RevlidRas wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Fallen are not necessarily warp tainted. Hence why there is a distinction from scotsman.

Sure, I get that, but to my mind you can divide "Heretic Astartes" into two broad categories:

Renegades are those Chapters who've ditched/been ditched by the Imperium, and are operating without broader infrastructural support, but haven't actually drunk the Chaos kool-aid; they might have newer gear than the Traitor Legions due to raids or defecting quite recently, they might tolerate mutations and heretek, and they might employ human combat troops to bolster their numbers, but they're not going to be summoning daemons or fielding Chaos Spawn en-masse. They might have a few Cult Marines or equivalents, a forbidden relic or two, or a Librarian who performs sorcery, but that's about it. This category covers Relictors, Astral Claws, Ashen Claws, Venom Thorns, and so on.

Heretics are those Chapters who've signed up to the Chaos Gods, either through sincere worship or just living in the Eye of Terror/Maelstrom long enough that they don't care. They'll lack newer gear, and are usually fewer in number relative to Renegades of the same original size, but have full access to the powers of the Warp, ranging from daemon summoning to hellforged vehicles to sorcery to Cult Marines and Possessed and Obliterators.

The Renegade/Heretical Detachments here seem to be very similar, with Warp-Tainted filling the "Heretical" role, so I'd suggest ditching Heretical or moving it to the "Warp-Tainted" slot.

The distinction I drew is that there seemed to be a specific time warp type event centering around the original home planet of the Dark Angels that was bringing some Fallen warbands directly from the Heresy to modern day, that's what HERETICS is intended to represent - those heretical dark angels that had not yet completely fallen to the taint of chaos but which were using warp energies under the command of Luther to first fight the rebels on their homeworld and then fight the loyalist dark angels. Hence why they do have Sorcerors, and use the rules from the CSM codex, but lack any of the fully daemon based CSM units, and why they retain the IMPERIUM keyword as they could be mistaken for imperial space marines or could have their own support troops that would seem much more like modern loyalist troops than chaos cults.

WARP-TAINTED and RENEGADE fallen are those who have been in the modern time line since the schism, and of those some have rejected chaos and fight to either destroy or defend the imperium (hence why they gain both keywords) and some have embraced chaos in their fight against the imperium and presumably would have all the associated daemonic units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Edited to remove primaris options - my understanding of Fallen fluff appears to have been flawed, I thought some of them were more recent renegades but it appears they are all principally operating based on the schism 10k years ago.

So, we have three types of Fallen detachments represented:

1) Fallen sucked into the current era from the Heresy due to the time shenanigans caused by the archaeotech device (HERETICAL)

2) Renegades who fight either for or against the imperium but have not succumbed to chaos corruption (RENEGADES)

3) warp-tainted Fallen who have embraced the chaos gods (WARP-TAINTED)

Traditionally, Fallen have been portrayed 2 ways:

- outcasts from their destroyed planet, scattered through space and time, operating in isolation, sometimes allied with other Chaos forces

- rebels combatting the excesses of the Imperium, inspiring heroic / futile acts of resistance within Imperial populations (at least in the case of Cypher)

More recently, fluff has included some pretty vivid descriptions of a full Fallen force liberating Luther from the Rock. They have the ability to mysteriously vanish and were lead by a Daemon Prince named Marbas with some unique traits.

It's clear where you're going with the different types, but I do wonder if it really reflects the lore. One issue I see is that CSM themselves don't strictly differentiate between renegades and warp-tainted forces. Another has to do with Primaris and the Fallen - aren't they in the same situation, in some ways? They're both removed from their original time and place and still possess the original animus we associate with the Heresy. It's hard to see them playing nice under any circumstances.

Might I suggest this approach to bridging the gap (at least for the purposes of discussion?)

- Errant: traditional Fallen units for use in Chaos armies.

- Renegade: Cypher becomes available as an HQ choice for any Space Marine / Guard army. Fallen / dedicated transports can be included as troops without breaking battle forged rules.

- Ascendant: Luther and Marbas get datasheets become available as HQ choices, along with Cypher, for CSM armies. Fallen become a troops choice, Deathwing Knights become a Heavy Support choice and Ravenwing Bikers become a Fast Attack choice. Fallen as a faction gets LTs, WLTs, Stratagems and unique detachments.

Would the Fallen ever have Deathwing units? That's interesting, I thought those were a post-heresy development added in to specifically root out the Fallen. I was assuming Fallen would just have standard terminator units.

Modern 40k Deathwing is certainly a post-heresy development, but Deathwing did exist back in the heresy. They would most likely follow normal terminator rules, unless you wanted to find the Horus Heresy book with Deathwing companions and port some flavor rules into 9th.

Deathwing shouldn't even be a whole entry to begin with. Fallen by principle should have access to Terminators.

Why not take the 30k DA army list, update it for sense and 40k sensibilities, and say ta-da, Fallen? Leave Chaos fallen to the CSM lists painted black, and ones that have reorganised to operate in the current timeline the Marine codex.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Why not take the 30k DA army list, update it for sense and 40k sensibilities, and say ta-da, Fallen? Leave Chaos fallen to the CSM lists painted black, and ones that have reorganised to operate in the current timeline the Marine codex.

Because I set this up in like 30 minutes. I anticipate that figuring out how to translate a full 30k list into 40k would be much trickier to get correct given at this point 30k is two editions behind.

I assumed it would be just looking at the list of units and writing the classification (troop, heavy, etc) and points next to them. And removing OOP stuff.

The 30k list is entirely different stat wise, special rules wise, point philosophy wise, etc, than 9th edition 40k.

Rihgu wrote:
The 30k list is entirely different stat wise, special rules wise, point philosophy wise, etc, than 9th edition 40k.

Just use the fan 9e conversion for the HH then.

 the_scotsman wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Why not take the 30k DA army list, update it for sense and 40k sensibilities, and say ta-da, Fallen? Leave Chaos fallen to the CSM lists painted black, and ones that have reorganised to operate in the current timeline the Marine codex.

Because I set this up in like 30 minutes. I anticipate that figuring out how to translate a full 30k list into 40k would be much trickier to get correct given at this point 30k is two editions behind.

can we appreciate the irony that it still looks more interesting than what GW copy pasted.... and acually workable?
..

god i miss old GW and old WD.... and i mean old, not kirby greed nonsense era old....