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Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





United Kingdom

Hi all,

What’s the position post-core rules FAQ regarding the use of fire and fade with transports?

I understand that, due to the new wording, you can now use fire and fade to enter a transport - great stuff.

But does this mean I can use it to disembark from a wave serpent and then embark back in in the same turn?

The core rules don’t specify you can’t disembark and re-embark in the same turn, like they used to - rather, they say you can’t do both in the same phase. So at first glance it seems like they can, because you use fire and fade in the shooting phase.

However, the amended rules state that, when moving out of phase as if it were the movement phase, all normal rules that would apply in the movement phase apply. So does that mean they are treated as if they are moving in the movement phase, therefore they can’t re-embark?

I’m reluctantly thinking no, but then I read this article which seems to think this is an amazing upgrade for dark reapers and fire dragons, which it wouldn’t be if you had to start them on the table and then fire-and-fade in https://craftworldeldar.com/2021/02/13/shall-we-dance-mon-keigh-post-faq-movement-shenanigans-and-why-fire-dragons-are-back/

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/22 08:56:58


 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

EMBARK
If a unit makes a Normal Move, an Advance or it Falls Back, and every model in that unit ends that move within 3" of a friendly TRANSPORT model they can embark within it. A unit cannot embark within a TRANSPORT model that is within Engagement Range of enemy models, and it cannot embark if it has already disembarked from a TRANSPORT model in the same phase. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked within the model.

OUT OF PHASE RULES AND EMBARKING ON TRANSPORTS
We wish to add an example to explain how the Out of Phase rules apply to units. When a unit uses a rule to make a move as if it were the Movement phase, all the normal rules that would apply in the Movement phase apply when making that move. For example, models in that unit cannot finish that move within Engagement Range of any enemy models, and if every model in that unit finishes that move wholly within 3" of a friendly TRANSPORT model, they can embark within that TRANSPORT model following the normal Movement phase rules regarding embarkation.


All rules of the movement phase still apply when you make a move as if it were the movement phase. And those rules say that you cannot disembark and embark in the same phase. So you cannot embark in the shooting phase with fire and fade.
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





United Kingdom

Thanks for response.

Devil’s advocate: is there a distinction between being subject to the restrictions of the movement phase and actually being in the movement phase? It is still a different phase of the turn. So you couldn’t move within 1” of the enemy (for example) but you are still moving *at a different time.*

These guys seem to think you can re-embark:

https://youtu.be/qaCZo2Ra9f0
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

 p5freak wrote:
EMBARK
If a unit makes a Normal Move, an Advance or it Falls Back, and every model in that unit ends that move within 3" of a friendly TRANSPORT model they can embark within it. A unit cannot embark within a TRANSPORT model that is within Engagement Range of enemy models, and it cannot embark if it has already disembarked from a TRANSPORT model in the same phase. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked within the model.

OUT OF PHASE RULES AND EMBARKING ON TRANSPORTS
We wish to add an example to explain how the Out of Phase rules apply to units. When a unit uses a rule to make a move as if it were the Movement phase, all the normal rules that would apply in the Movement phase apply when making that move. For example, models in that unit cannot finish that move within Engagement Range of any enemy models, and if every model in that unit finishes that move wholly within 3" of a friendly TRANSPORT model, they can embark within that TRANSPORT model following the normal Movement phase rules regarding embarkation.
What? That is a complete misreading of the rules you quoted. If the unit disembarked in the Movement phase and then uses Fire and Fade in the Shooting phase, it would not be embarking the same phase it disembarked. The Shooting phase is not the last Movement phase, even if the unit is acting as if it was the Movement phase. So totally legal to embark at the end of the Fire and Fade movement, even if they disembarked the prior Movement phase.

All rules of the movement phase still apply when you make a move as if it were the movement phase. And those rules say that you cannot disembark and embark in the same phase. So you cannot embark in the shooting phase with fire and fade.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/21 14:04:38


 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 alextroy wrote:
What? That is a complete misreading of the rules you quoted. If the unit disembarked in the Movement phase and then uses Fire and Fade in the Shooting phase, it would not be embarking the same phase it disembarked. The Shooting phase is not the last Movement phase, even if the unit is acting as if it was the Movement phase. So totally legal to embark at the end of the Fire and Fade movement, even if they disembarked the prior Movement phase.


Yes, the shooting phase is not the movement phase, but all rules of the movement phase still apply when you move as if its the movement phase. And the movement phase rules say you cannot disembark and embark in the same phase. You treat the move in the shooting phase just like moving in the movement phase.


OUT OF PHASE RULES AND EMBARKING ON TRANSPORTS
We wish to add an example to explain how the Out of Phase rules apply to units. When a unit uses a rule to make a move as if it were the Movement phase, all the normal rules that would apply in the Movement phase apply when making that move. For example, models in that unit cannot finish that move within Engagement Range of any enemy models, and if every model in that unit finishes that move wholly within 3" of a friendly TRANSPORT model, they can embark within that TRANSPORT model following the normal Movement phase rules regarding embarkation.


When a unit finishes that move wholly within 3" of a friendly TRANSPORT model, they can embark within that TRANSPORT model following the normal Movement phase rules regarding embarkation. And those normal movement phase rule say you cannot disembark and embark in the same phase.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

And the Shooting Phase is not the Movement phase the unit disembarked in. So no issue with embarking.
   
Made in ca
Foolproof Falcon Pilot




Ontario, Canada

It seems like the core of the problem here is determining whether or not "as if it were the movement phase" equates to "as if it were the previous movement phase". The restriction on embarking applies specifically during the previous movement phase since that's when the unit disembarked.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 alextroy wrote:
And the Shooting Phase is not the Movement phase the unit disembarked in. So no issue with embarking.
This is correct.

The rules say A unit "cannot embark if it has already disembarked from a TRANSPORT model in the same phase"

If the unit disembarks in the movement phase, it can not embark in that same movement phase.

Once you move on to the psychic or shooting phase, that restriction is gone because it is no longer the movement phase. Any other movement phases after that (Even virtual ones like with the F&F strat) allow embarkation.

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Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:

Once you move on to the psychic or shooting phase, that restriction is gone because it is no longer the movement phase. Any other movement phases after that (Even virtual ones like with the F&F strat) allow embarkation.


Yes, its no longer the movement phase, but the restriction is still in play, because all movement phase rules still apply when you use out of phase rules. The rule that you cannot disembark and embark in the same phase is a movement phase rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/21 16:03:18


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!






Sweet deal!
***goes away to work on mechanized ratling division***

Seriously though, it's gonna be fun moving guard infantry squads out of chimeras then ordering them back in without even shooting, just to troll the opponent.

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

Once you move on to the psychic or shooting phase, that restriction is gone because it is no longer the movement phase. Any other movement phases after that (Even virtual ones like with the F&F strat) allow embarkation.


Yes, its no longer the movement phase, but the restriction is still in play, because all movement phase rules still apply when you use out of phase rules. The rule that you cannot disembark and embark in the same phase is a movement phase rule.

Except, as repeated, it is not the same phase. Categorically. It is A movement phase, for some purposes, but it is not THE movement phase the unit disembarked in

Your argument fails spectacularly, as as presented it would prevent any embarkation on any shooting phase of any turn following a disembark turn one.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

Heck. His argument as presented prevents embarking ever after a unit disembarks.
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Kansas, United States

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

Once you move on to the psychic or shooting phase, that restriction is gone because it is no longer the movement phase. Any other movement phases after that (Even virtual ones like with the F&F strat) allow embarkation.


Yes, its no longer the movement phase, but the restriction is still in play, because all movement phase rules still apply when you use out of phase rules. The rule that you cannot disembark and embark in the same phase is a movement phase rule.


It counts as A movement phase, it does not count as the SAME movement phase. Therefore, the restriction does not seem to apply.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/21 16:38:02


Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch 
   
Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

 p5freak wrote:
Yes, its no longer the movement phase, but the restriction is still in play, because all movement phase rules still apply when you use out of phase rules. The rule that you cannot disembark and embark in the same phase is a movement phase rule.

This is the guy who purports you can't make attacks against models in base contact. Take everything he says with a large grain of salt.

Yes, you can Fire and Fade back into a transport as it is categorically not the same phase in which they disembarked.

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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

The Shooting Phase is not the Movement Phase. Taking an out-of-phase action does not make it that Phase.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





United Kingdom

Thanks for your help guys (including p5freak). I used this interpretation this evening. Carnage ensued!
   
 
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