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Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






How do?

General lore question.

Since 2nd Ed landed, it’s been established that Dreadnoughts are difficult to build, and tricky to maintain. This of course is handwavium for why Astartes don’t have loads and loads and loads of them, as in everyone in the Chapter de-limbed and implanted.

Recently of course (well, recently as I count such things) the Redemptor has become a thing. So clearly there’s some capacity for building new ones, as it’s a new pattern and produced in clearly greater numbers than its predecessor. Otherwise how have the various existing chapters been issued with them?

But what I’m not clear on is whether or not the sarcophagus portion (where the quadraspazzed Marine is interred) is unique to the chassis? Can anyone shine a light on that?

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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




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IIRC they can take the older sarcophagus, but they burn out the pilots quicker.
   
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Lit By the Flames of Prospero






The guns/legs bit of a box dread is basically interchangeable depending on what loadout the dread is required for IIRC. The sarcophagus slots in and out to be put into stasis. Obviously, Contemptors don't have this feature. The neural connectors used in a Redemptor are superior to a Castraferrum pattern but basically burns out the "pilot" until they're just blackened organs and bones.
   
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In the Avenging son book, it describes cawl as having 10k years to build them and his ship is "Full of new dreadnaughts of an unknown design", but they are not "True Veterans" according to the head Ultramarine in charge of training them. They are hypnotrained, or some such word. So my question is then, what did Cawl do to his Primaris creations to warrant interring some of them in the upgunned version of the dreadnaught? With his style of being, he would have just discarded any failures in training. Why keep some around as basically untrained, green dreadnaughts?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/29 14:03:24


 
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
With his style of being, he would have just discarded any failures in training. Why keep some around as basically untrained, green dreadnaughts?

I'm not sure he would have thrown them away - doesn't Felix say something like he kept being taken out of stasis and tinkered with by Cawl? They also wouldn't be untrained or green - their training was programmed into them, and Cawl had Primaris (and prototypes like Alpha Primus) running missions before Guilliman's return (and they could also have been injured enough on those missions to end up in a dread).
   
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Don't waste the meat of a broken body basically. The Mechanicus does that kind of thing often, in the Word Bearers series they straight up ask the Elysian General if they can use his dead soldiers as Servitor food.
   
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I can't remember the name of the character, but Gman literally commands him to teach the Primaris how to fight as a unit, because they have zero combat training. I can't recall, but I think he literally uses the term "green" in describing them. If Gman says they are green, they are green. That means any dreadnaught with a primaris body is essentially a completely pointless machine. The reason Dreads only go to the best of the marine ancients, is because they are supposed to be too valuable to waste, the pilot, not the armor. So they hook them into a dread.

I get that Primaris plot magic yada yada yada, but still, they were taken as children over 10k years ago, and just recenently re-awoken. They would be worthless pilots?
   
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Armored Iron Breaker





I agree with Fezzik here. Simulations can only do so much to prepare you for the real thing. And when the real thing is combat, you've got to get real experience under your belt.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/29 22:26:24


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It was one of the big things about the Primaris. They're tougher and stronger than Firstborn but they lacked any real combat experience and would routinely get massacred when met by an actual threat like CSM or large groups of enemies like Orks or Nids.
Regarding Primaris being worthless dread pilots, you don't need to be good you just need to be sane and have strong willpower. When you have a giant fist and gatling cannon/plasma cannon with loads of armour killing tends to be easy. Plus with an abundance of failed test subjects and ruined Marines from Primaris massacres, if you've got the shells just use them as shock troops.
   
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 Gert wrote:
It was one of the big things about the Primaris. They're tougher and stronger than Firstborn but they lacked any real combat experience and would routinely get massacred when met by an actual threat like CSM or large groups of enemies like Orks or Nids.
Regarding Primaris being worthless dread pilots, you don't need to be good you just need to be sane and have strong willpower. When you have a giant fist and gatling cannon/plasma cannon with loads of armour killing tends to be easy. Plus with an abundance of failed test subjects and ruined Marines from Primaris massacres, if you've got the shells just use them as shock troops.


I guess this directly conflicts with Cawl's assertions then, that Primaris are better in EVERY way to the standard marine? I am not saying Cawl was correct when he said that, but I think this is one of the key ways GW shifted the lore on these guys. We no longer need "Veteran space marines" or "ancients" because Primaris come out of the tube basically at peak levels already. Hence, a dreadnaught doesn't need to be a 1k year old Ancient in a walking coffin with guns, it can be a 5 year old Primaris who lost both legs in a bad encounter or what not, right? By doing away with Ancients/Veterans, you are essentially saying Company Commanders/LTs, and Captains, are ready to be that on day 1. We no longer need to sell "Ancients" as units. These guys are essentially ancients out of the box?

Also I think GW is killing off the older style art forms of Astartes. The boxynaught is never coming back, all the Dreads now might as well be Gundams.
   
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I don’t think GW are phasing out the concept of SM veterans - they literally added a squad of Primaris vets in a fairly high profile way this edition and there’s been a big focus on experienced firstborn crossing the rubicon.

Take it perhaps as just a consequence of the way Primaris were initially implemented

   
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Lord Zarkov wrote:
I don’t think GW are phasing out the concept of SM veterans - they literally added a squad of Primaris vets in a fairly high profile way this edition and there’s been a big focus on experienced firstborn crossing the rubicon.

Take it perhaps as just a consequence of the way Primaris were initially implemented



I don't feel like they are phasing out the models, just the lore. They are doing away with walking sarcophagi and making them all piloted by a living pilot. AKA Dreadknights. Or whatever the Sisters battle armor is.
   
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Lit By the Flames of Prospero






All dreadnought pilots are "alive" and always have been, its just usually the body inside the dread is ruined and very old and basically dead anyway. Dreadnoughts aren't always ancient heroes of the chapter anyway. The 4th Company Techmarine from the Uriel Ventris series was eventually interred in a dreadnought and he wasn't particularly old.
The whole "Primaris are flawless" idea was moved away from pretty quickly because obviously it was really dumb. Giving them flaws made them more likeable.
   
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 Gert wrote:
All dreadnought pilots are "alive" and always have been, its just usually the body inside the dread is ruined and very old and basically dead anyway. Dreadnoughts aren't always ancient heroes of the chapter anyway. The 4th Company Techmarine from the Uriel Ventris series was eventually interred in a dreadnought and he wasn't particularly old.
The whole "Primaris are flawless" idea was moved away from pretty quickly because obviously it was really dumb. Giving them flaws made them more likeable.


Thank you for clearing me up on that. I had always thought the armor was something extremely rare since the HH, and it wasn't like everyone could have one, so they only gave them to the elite warriors they couldn't afford to lose. Sort of like the guy in the BA basement who's watching over that immortal/unkillable alien thing. And ofcourse there is whats his name from the SWs.
   
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Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Dreadnought chassis are hard to build but not impossible. Contemptor Dreadnoughts, especially patterns such as the Deredeo and Leviathan, are very rare relics of the Heresy but since rules =/= background, we saw loads being used in 40k in tournaments *cough*Iron Hands*cough*.
   
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Legendary Master of the Chapter





you guys are forgetting an important reason why Cawl might hook people up to redemptors...

SO HE CAN TEST THEM.


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Lord Zarkov wrote:
I don’t think GW are phasing out the concept of SM veterans - they literally added a squad of Primaris vets in a fairly high profile way this edition and there’s been a big focus on experienced firstborn crossing the rubicon.

Take it perhaps as just a consequence of the way Primaris were initially implemented



I don't feel like they are phasing out the models, just the lore. They are doing away with walking sarcophagi and making them all piloted by a living pilot. AKA Dreadknights. Or whatever the Sisters battle armor is.


not so much getting rid of them, but giving them to factions that, for whatever reason, dont have an equivalent walker platform, purely for Rule of Cool.


Thank you for clearing me up on that. I had always thought the armor was something extremely rare since the HH, and it wasn't like everyone could have one, so they only gave them to the elite warriors they couldn't afford to lose.


i dont think its impossible to make new ones, after all, the existing ones must get extensively mauled in combat over the centuries, so they must be able to do extensive repairs on them, to a "ship of theseus" degree (ie every part has been changed, at some point, so that no parts of the original are left)

I think one of the major criterion for internment in a sarcophagus is the level of wounding, as it needs to be in a fairly narrow band that inflicts near-fatal damage to the Marine without actaully killing him. Given the extreme resilience they normally display, thiers not that many things that actually give them these mortal but not fatal wounds that would lead to them being interred. Often the wounded marine either makes a full recovery (sometimes with the aid of bionics) or is just plain dead form massive damage. so the potential pool for dreadnought pilots is quite small to begin with.

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