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Made in gb
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The lore for these guys can be found here and here.

Thallaxii Ironsides (Elites, Power Rating 4)
2-8 Thallaxii Ironside: M 8"; WS 3+; BS 3+; S 4; T 4; W 3; A 2; Ld 7; Sv 3+
1 Thallaxii Princeps: M 8"; WS 3+; BS 3+; S 4; T 4; W 3; A 3; Ld 8; Sv 3+
If this unit contains between 4 and 6 models, it has Power Rating 8. If this unit contains 7 or more models, it has Power Rating 12. Every model is equipped with: lightning gun; heavy chainblade.

Wargear
Spoiler:
  • Lightning gun: Range 18”; Type Assault 2; Strength 5; AP -2; Damage 1; Abilities: Each time an attack is made with this weapon, an unmodified wound roll of 6 scores 2 additional wounds.
  • Multi-melta: Range 24”; Type Heavy 2; Strength 8; AP -4; Damage D6; Abilities: Each time an attack made with this weapon targets a unit within half range, that attack has a Damage characteristic of D6+2.
  • Phased Plasma-Fusil: Range 18”; Type Rapid Fire 2; Strength 7; AP -3; Damage 2; Abilities: -.
  • Photon Thruster: Range 48”; Type Heavy 2; Strength 6; AP -4; Damage 2D3; Abilities: Each time an attack is made with this weapon, an unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts D3 mortal wounds on the target in addition to any normal damage, and an unmodified wound roll of 1 inflicts D3 mortal wounds on the bearer’s unit after shooting is resolved.
  • Rad cleanser: Range 12”; Type Assault D6; Strength 2; AP 0; Damage 3; Abilities: Each time an attack is made with this weapon, that attack automatically hits the target. Each time an attack is made with this weapon against a unit (excluding VEHICLE or TITANIC units), an unmodified wound roll of 2+ is always successful.

  • Heavy chainblade: Range Melee; Type Melee; Strength +1; AP -1; Damage 1; Abilities: -.

  • Wargear Options
  • For every 3 models in this unit, one model’s lightning gun and heavy chainblade can be replaced with one of the following: 1 multi melta; 1 phased plasma-fusil; 1 photon thruster; 1 rad cleanser.

  • Abilities
  • Doctrina Imperatives: See Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus, pg 85.
  • Djinn-Sight: Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack, the target does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack.
  • Enhanced Bionics: Models in this unit have a 5+ invulnerable save.
  • Electroceptive Interceptor: Each time you use the Infoslave Skull Stratagem, if you select this unit, reduce the Command point cost of that Stratagem by 1.

  • Keywords
  • Faction: IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS MECHANICUS, SKITARII, <FORGE WORLD>
  • Keywords: INFANTRY, JUMP PACK, FLY, CORE, LORICA THALLAX, THALLAXII IRONSIDES

  • Points Costs
    Spoiler:
  • Thallaxii: 28 points
  • Thallaxii Princeps: 28 points

  • Multi-melta: 20 points
  • Phased plasma-fusil: 15 points
  • Photon thruster: 20 points
  • Rad cleanser: 10 points


  • Ursaraxii Ironclaws (Elites, Power Rating 4)
    2-8 Ursaraxii Ironclaw: M 8”; WS 3+; BS 3+; S 4; T 4; W 3; A 2; Ld 7; Sv 3+
    1 Ursaraxii Princeps: M 8"; WS 3+; BS 3+; S 4; T 4; W 3; A 3; Ld 8; Sv 3+

    If this unit contains between 4 and 6 models, it has Power Rating 8. If this unit contains 7 or more models, it has Power Rating 12. Every model is equipped with: volkite incinerator; 2 arktos claws.

    Wargear
    Spoiler:
  • Volkite incinerator: Range 10”; Type Pistol 1; Strength 5; AP 0; Damage 2; Abilities: Each time an attack is made with this weapon, an unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 2 mortal wounds on the target in addition to any normal damage.

  • Arktos claw: Range Melee; Type Melee; Strength -; AP -3; Damage 1; Abilities: Each time the bearer fights, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon.
  • Power fist: Range Melee; Type Melee; Strength x2; AP-3; Damage 2; Abilities: Each time an attack is made with this weapon, subtract 1 from that attack’s hit roll.

  • Wargear Options
  • Any number of models can each have their arktos claws replaced with 2 power fists.

  • Abilities
  • Doctrina Imperatives: See Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus, pg 85.
  • Djinn-Sight: Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack, the target does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack.
  • Enhanced Bionics: Models in this unit have a 5+ invulnerable save.
  • Incinerator Grip: In your Shooting phase, each time a model in this unit scores a hit against a unit within Engagement Range with a Wounds characteristic of 3 or less, it can hold its victim in place. If it does, the target suffers 1 mortal wound in addition to any normal damage, but that model cannot fight in the Fight phase of this turn.

  • Keywords
  • Faction: IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS MECHANICUS, SKITARII, <FORGE WORLD>
  • Keywords: INFANTRY, JUMP PACK, FLY, CORE, LORICA THALLAX, URSARAXII IRONCLAWS

  • Points Costs
    Spoiler:
  • Ursaraxii: 28 points
  • Ursaraxii Princeps: 28 points


  • New Stratagem: Outlive The Flesh (1 CP)
    Adeptus Mechanicus - Battle Tactic Stratagem
    When salvaged Skitarii are woven into the living shell of the Lorica Thallax, only those with an incredible will to survive can overcome the bombardment of data and pain to reclaim what passes for their sanity.
    Use this Stratagem in any phase, when a <FORGE WORLD> LORICA THALLAX unit from your army is chosen as the target for an attack or suffers a mortal wound. Until the end of that phase, when a model in that unit would lose a wound, roll one D6; on a 5+ that wound is not lost. You can only use this Stratagem once per turn.

    This message was edited 18 times. Last update was at 2021/06/12 00:56:27


     
       
    Made in gb
    Lord of the Fleet






    London

    I think the Plasma Fusil may be a bit undercosted for 15pts.

    I like it, really hoping we do get 40k rules for the FW Admech stuff. I think the strat is a bit "meh" however, a 6+ FNP for 1CP, I would imagine that would be built-in given it's based around the Lorica Thallax.

       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




     Valkyrie wrote:
    I think the Plasma Fusil may be a bit undercosted for 15pts.
    You might be right - honestly, I'd have nerfed it in the first draft if it didn't already have official stats on a Knight (same deal with the Rad Cleanser). So I did some more maths (and rolled it out, just for funsies) instead of going mostly gutfeel. What I found is that the Plasma-Fusil is really strong; within 12", it's basically the scariest infantry-available gun in the AdMech arsenal.
  • It's twice as good as an Arc Rifle at the same range, or just as good against VEHICLES.
  • It's a bit worse than a Rad Cleanser against light infantry, (T4 5+ or worse, or T3 6+ or worse), but can still be fired an extra 12" away at lower power, and massively outmuscles it against (non-Plague) Marines and all vehicles.
  • It sits in an odd place relative to the Plasma Culverin; identical against W1 units, but with no Assault type and -6" range... then jumps up to twice as good within 12". Except for against T4, T8 and/or W2+ units, where the Culverin can supercharge to be more like 2/3 as good.[list]The first significant gun to really beat it is the Multi-Melta, which totally overpowers it against anything with W3+ regardless of their relative ranges. It's much worse against W1/2 infantry within 12", however.
  • The other is the Heavy Grav Cannon, which is only very slightly worse against light infantry like Orks or Guard, matches it pound-for-pound against anything with a 3+ save, and works at full power all the way out to 30".

  • Notably, the Heavy Grav Cannon is 40 points on a Kataphron Destroyer, which is the same cost as a Thallaxii with a Phased Plasma-Fusil. The Destroyer is a bit slower, but a bit tougher, but lacks Djinn-Sight or Electroception, but has an extra gun, etc... I think it's probably about on point. Then looking at relative costs, Rad Cleanser matches or beats it against non-VEHICLES within 12", but can't fire beyond that (but has Assault), so -5 points is probably fine; I'd say it was too expensive, but it beats the hell out of the base Lightning Gun, so I'll leave it. Multi-Melta beasts on tougher targets out to max range, so it's probably fine at +5 or even +10 points, Photon Thruster is mostly level with a Multi-Melta, but falls down a bit against W5+ targets and has a mortal wounds drawback... but has twice the range, so call it even.

    I think I'm going to leave points costs where they are, for now. One change I am tempted to make is renaming the rad cleanser to radium cleanser (so it benefits from radium rules, namely the Rad-Saturated Forge World boost), but I don't especially think it needs to get +6" range from the Tech-Priest Manipulus, so I'm going to leave it for now.

     Valkyrie wrote:
    I like it, really hoping we do get 40k rules for the FW Admech stuff.
    We were going to, back in... I think 2016? Unfortunately, the late, great Alan Bligh passed away, putting a spanner in the works for Fires of Cyraxus, and at this point I doubt it'll ever happen. We were lucky to even get Secutarii rules; half the AdMech 30k models are either OOP or on their way there. That seems insane, considering how much Forge World have just totally ignored a growing market for some of its more niche sci-fi models, but I don't make the business decisions over there.

     Valkyrie wrote:
    I think the strat is a bit "meh" however, a 6+ FNP for 1CP, I would imagine that would be built-in given it's based around the Lorica Thallax.
    You could be right. Iron Hands get it as a 5+ for 1CP, but they have FNP 6+ built in, so I thought it might be a bit much to jump to 5+... but these guys are pretty expensive. I didn't want to build it directly into the statline, though (even if Ursaraxii have it in 30k), for fear of pumping their cost even higher; I kind of like them as a midway between Sicarians and Kataphrons in terms of expensive Elites, and they're already pretty durable; they're more vulnerable to small arms fire (i.e. AP-1 or worse), but against anything you'd normally shoot at Terminators, they're tougher than Terminators.

    My other option for a Stratagem was a Hammer-of-Wrath style mortal wounds on the charge, but that already exists for Crushing Weight, so it felt a bit weird to add another, weaker but otherwise nearly identical one.
       
    Made in us
    Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






    Right behind you.

    Just so's you know, Fires of Cyraxus was not going to be including anywhere near all of the 30k stuff.

    This is a bit of a lore teaser that had been circulating at the time:
    Not every Mechanicum related item survived the post-Horus Heresy transition from Mechanicum to Mechanicus. Things like the Thallax, Vorax, and Ursurax--and Thanatar were basically all thrown away since they were more closely associated with the Traitor Legions and the Machine Spirits for them seemed to be crazy aggressive. It's the same justification for the ditching of Dreadclaws for the 'new' Drop Pods.

    Only things known to have been in the book were the Thanatar(which was having its rules done sadly when Bligh passed), the Secutarii, the Ordinatus variants, and I want to say the Termite.

    There were also the Knights.
       
    Made in us
    Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







    Translating from T5/3W in 7th into T4/3W in 9th is going to make them awfully squishy.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/06 01:00:17


    Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
    Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
    Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
       
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    Daemonic Dreadnought




    The dark hollows of Kentucky

     Kanluwen wrote:
    Just so's you know, Fires of Cyraxus was not going to be including anywhere near all of the 30k stuff.

    This is a bit of a lore teaser that had been circulating at the time:
    Not every Mechanicum related item survived the post-Horus Heresy transition from Mechanicum to Mechanicus. Things like the Thallax, Vorax, and Ursurax--and Thanatar were basically all thrown away since they were more closely associated with the Traitor Legions and the Machine Spirits for them seemed to be crazy aggressive. It's the same justification for the ditching of Dreadclaws for the 'new' Drop Pods.

    Only things known to have been in the book were the Thanatar(which was having its rules done sadly when Bligh passed), the Secutarii, the Ordinatus variants, and I want to say the Termite.

    There were also the Knights.

    Ohhhh.....so I guess all of those things need to go to the Dark Mechanicus then.
       
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     AnomanderRake wrote:
    Translating from T5/3W in 7th into T4/3W in 9th is going to make them awfully squishy.
    Well, T4/3W with a 5++. They're 1/3 squishier against most small arms (S4-S5 and AP-1 and lower) but almost twice as tough against plasma or other, heavier guns (S3, S6+ and AP-2 and higher). Mainly I wanted to clearly distinguish their statline from the Kataphrons, both to distinguish them in terms of role and bring them more in line with the Skitarii "progression" to Sicarians, since they're part of that line. From T3/W1/4+/6++ to T3/W2/4+/5++ to T4/W3/4+/5++.

     Kanluwen wrote:
    Just so's you know, Fires of Cyraxus was not going to be including anywhere near all of the 30k stuff.
    My understanding was that Fires Of Cyraxus centred around a conflict between the T'au and a Forge World "vault" that stored a bunch of mothballed Heresy-era automata etc, a set-up designed to force the resident Tech-Priests to release the forbidden/forgotten tech in order to fight off the alien invaders? If that's not the case, then I stand corrected and it's just another bizarre decision in how GW's handled these models.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/06 03:09:04


     
       
    Made in us
    Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







    RevlidRas wrote:
     AnomanderRake wrote:
    Translating from T5/3W in 7th into T4/3W in 9th is going to make them awfully squishy.
    Well, T4/3W with a 5++. They're 1/3 squishier against most small arms (S4-S5 and AP-1 and lower) but almost twice as tough against plasma or other, heavier guns (S3, S6+ and AP-2 and higher). Mainly I wanted to clearly distinguish their statline from the Kataphrons, both to distinguish them in terms of role and bring them more in line with the Skitarii "progression" to Sicarians, since they're part of that line. From T3/W1/4+/6++ to T3/W2/4+/5++ to T4/W3/4+/5++...


    Not by my math. You're going from nine boltgun shots to do a wound in 7th down to 4.5 (you've made them easier to wound, and they're often only getting a 5+ save because small arms often have AP now), or 3 factoring in Captain/Lieutenant, plus the threat range on two boltgun shots is now 30" (up from 12"). Keep in mind also that plasma does two damage now, so upgrading from the 6++ off the Lorica Thallax to a 5++ coupled with your other nerfs and it takes slightly less plasma to kill one under these rules (5.4 shots on average) than it did in 7th (6.5). They're squishier against everything you could point at them.

    I appreciate your desire to differentiate the Thallax from the Kataphron chassis, but if you go back to 7th the Kataphron was T5/2W/3+ (Breachers) or T5/2W/4+ (Destroyers) and the Thallax was T5/3W/4+. The Thallax ought to be tougher than the Kataphron, not wimpier, and a 4+ save in 7th doesn't necessarily translate to a 4+ save in 8th just because the new AP system has devalued armour so badly.

    I also don't follow your "progression" logic, for a long litany of reasons:
    1) The Thallax aren't a "member of the Skitarii line", they're the Ordo Reductor's line troops, which means they're from a completely different part of the Mechanicum. They're as much Skitarii as a Kastelan is, or a Knight.
    2) "From the same line" doesn't mean "can only differ in stats by one point".
    3) The Sicarans are unplayably squishy for their cost and role, so using them as a yardstick to measure your unit by is only going to produce something unplayably squishy for their cost and role.

    If you did want to maintain a numerical progression I'd suggest it should go Skitarii-Sicarans-Kataphron-Thallax, and the Sicarans ought to at bare minimum be bumped to T4/3+ to fit better into the gap between Skitarii infantry and Kataphrons.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/06 06:51:47


    Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
    Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
    Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
       
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    Dakka Veteran




     AnomanderRake wrote:
    Not by my math. You're going from nine boltgun shots to do a wound in 7th down to 4.5 (you've made them easier to wound, and they're often only getting a 5+ save because small arms often have AP now), or 3 factoring in Captain/Lieutenant, plus the threat range on two boltgun shots is now 30" (up from 12"). Keep in mind also that plasma does two damage now, so upgrading from the 6++ off the Lorica Thallax to a 5++ coupled with your other nerfs and it takes slightly less plasma to kill one under these rules (5.4 shots on average) than it did in 7th (6.5). They're squishier against everything you could point at them.
    Sure, but I'm not comparing cross-edition, I'm looking within editions. T5/W3/4+, in 9e, is killed by 18 lasgun hits, 18 boltgun hits, 6 heavy bolter hits, 4.5 plasma hits, 3 supercharged plasma hits, or 1.5 melta hits. T4/W3/4+/5++, in 9e, is killed by 18 lasgun hits, 12 boltgun hits, 4.5 heavy bolter hits, 6.75 plasma hits, 3.6 supercharged plasma hits, or 1.8 melta hits. My initial math was way off, you're absolutely right, but this statline is stronger against AP-2 or more, even if it's weaker against S4-5 and S8-9.

    I'll admit that these Thallaxii aren't the tankiest things around, but for their cost they look fine? They're notably tougher than an Intercessor (same durability vs small arms fire, 3x as many plasma shots to kill) and significantly shootier, with +2M, FLY, and Djinn-Sight/Electroception, for +5 points. A Heavy Intercessor is tougher against small arms fire and just as tough against plasma, but is even slower and still less shooty, for +3 points. They're more than three times as tough as a Skitarii for the same cost as 3 Skitarii, and come with a better gun and more abilities.

    I think I'd rather bump Thallaxii/Ursaraxii to Sv 3+ than T5, if they really need it, but that'd come with a points bump, at which point they're really creeping up on Kataphrons at 35-40 points. I'd also rather keep Thallaxii squishier than Kataphrons, because... well, look at them. Kataphrons are taller, broader, and heavier-looking. It makes more sense for them to be big slow tanks and Thallaxii to be tough but not as tough.

     AnomanderRake wrote:
    I also don't follow your "progression" logic, for a long litany of reasons:
    1) The Thallax aren't a "member of the Skitarii line", they're the Ordo Reductor's line troops, which means they're from a completely different part of the Mechanicum. They're as much Skitarii as a Kastelan is, or a Knight.
    My understanding is that Thallaxii can be read as the next step on the Skitarii "progression" of losing your meat parts and sanity, as they go from Skitarii (basically normal, indoctrinated cultists with extensive bionics hooked up to the noosphere, who may go on to become Marshalls or even Tech-Priests), then lose enough body parts that they get Robocopped into Sicarians (irreversibly inhuman cyborgs, specialized to the point of madness). Thallaxii are those who have been reduced - albeit usually as a deliberate procedure rather than post-battle surgery, given how elaborate the process is - to little more than a nervous system and a brain, woven into a cybernetic iron maiden and loaded up with enough sensory technology to drive them insane from data saturation.

    I guess they're listed as distinct from "Martian Skitarii forces", but I don't think they fit as CULT MECHANICUS, and I'll be damned if I add ORDO REDUCTOR as a third axis for AdMech. Mechanically it's neater to make them SKITARII (with a Princeps, Doctrina, etc), and their entry in Book One: Betrayal does read:
    Given the resources required, the difficulty of creating a Thallax and the fact that an individual's will to live was a factor in whether a usable measure of sanity was retained in the subject, Thallax conversion was often reserved for suitable Forge Guard (forge city security forces) and Skitarii fallen in battle and subjects obtained from more mysterious sources by the unfathomable and baleful Ordo Reductor.


     AnomanderRake wrote:
    3) The Sicarans are unplayably squishy for their cost and role, so using them as a yardstick to measure your unit by is only going to produce something unplayably squishy for their cost and role.
    Damn, really? I've yet to use them in the new codex, but I thought the points drop to 17 and addition of a 5+ invulnerable save would have fixed that somewhat. That's disappointing.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/06 16:34:41


     
       
    Made in us
    Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







    RevlidRas wrote:
     AnomanderRake wrote:
    3) The Sicarans are unplayably squishy for their cost and role, so using them as a yardstick to measure your unit by is only going to produce something unplayably squishy for their cost and role.
    Damn, really? I've yet to use them in the new codex, but I thought the points drop to 17 and addition of a 5+ invulnerable save would have fixed that somewhat. That's disappointing.


    This may be a design decision that you and I disagree on, but GW seems to be intent on turning the Mechanicum into a race-to-the-bottom faction where they've nailed themselves to bad stats and "correct" themselves by slashing prices, and pushing them into a horde-army mold that doesn't fit the fluff to me. You're taking a unit here that cost 3.5-4x as much as a Space Marine in 7th and making it cost 1.25x a Space Marine; I know you're not trying to do cross-faction comparisons, but it feels very wrong to me to dramatically recast the Thallax into "slightly bigger Space Marines", not to mention not fitting their model size, squad size, or game role.

    Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
    Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
    Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
       
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     AnomanderRake wrote:
    This may be a design decision that you and I disagree on, but GW seems to be intent on turning the Mechanicum into a race-to-the-bottom faction where they've nailed themselves to bad stats and "correct" themselves by slashing prices, and pushing them into a horde-army mold that doesn't fit the fluff to me. You're taking a unit here that cost 3.5-4x as much as a Space Marine in 7th and making it cost 1.25x a Space Marine; I know you're not trying to do cross-faction comparisons, but it feels very wrong to me to dramatically recast the Thallax into "slightly bigger Space Marines", not to mention not fitting their model size, squad size, or game role.
    I understand what you're saying a bit better now, I think. For my part, I actually really like the proliferation of different defensive profiles that I'm seeing; once upon a time the game was basically T3/5+, T3/4+, T4/6+, and T4/3+, and if there was anything in between it was niche at best. I like the addition of more units with varied Toughness/Wounds/Save profiles; a lot of factions now have more distinct values that respond to different attacks in different ways, whether it's W1/T3/4+/5++ on Drukhari or W2/T4/3+ on Astartes or W1/T5/6+ on Orks. It's neat, and I really do want to see where it's going.

    So for me, Sicarians being W2/T3/4+/5++ is interesting because it's different. They're still very tough, for infantry; they soak up over twice as much firepower as a the toughest infantry available to Guard, and are half-again as tough as a Battle Sister on her best day. Compared to the new and improved Space Marines, they're much squishier against small arms fire, but actually a bit tougher against plasma. That's interesting to me! It's not an accurate translation of the old days when the Sicarian's 2W + FnP made a joke out of Space Marine durability, but... well, I imagine that was kind of the point of Space Marines getting such a boost to their individual stats in the first place.

    On the other hand, yeah, it makes them a bit more horde-y than they used to be (still Incubi-expensive, but those aren't exactly priced at a premium, either), and that's something a lot of people won't like. If anything, though, I'd actually rather see Sicarians get a defensive boost like -1 to hit at long range, or while Advancing. That's a durability boost that emphasizes their characteristic behaviour, but also keeps them very different in defensive capabilities from Marines, compared to a 3+ save or T4.

    Now, if I was going to buff these guys in durability, it'd probably be with a 3+ Save (boost vs small arms fire, now literally just tougher Marines) or baking in a 6+ FnP (broad durability boost, less useful against D4+ guns). At that point, though, they're getting expensive enough that I'd also want to buff their combat stats for effectiveness, at which point... I dunno. I'll definitely think about it. They're already not much cheaper than Ogryn (who are, admittedly, crap, but these are faster, tougher, and about as hitty, with more utility features), so I don't think they're necessarily a "horde" unit.

    (also, not to split hairs, but in some ways the Thallaxii literally are slightly bigger Space Marines; the models aren't much bigger than a Primaris, last I checked, and I believe the Lorica Thallax is specifically called out as an ancestor or cousin to the Astartes power armour)
       
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     AnomanderRake wrote:
    This may be a design decision that you and I disagree on, but GW seems to be intent on turning the Mechanicum into a race-to-the-bottom faction where they've nailed themselves to bad stats and "correct" themselves by slashing prices, and pushing them into a horde-army mold that doesn't fit the fluff to me. You're taking a unit here that cost 3.5-4x as much as a Space Marine in 7th and making it cost 1.25x a Space Marine; I know you're not trying to do cross-faction comparisons, but it feels very wrong to me to dramatically recast the Thallax into "slightly bigger Space Marines", not to mention not fitting their model size, squad size, or game role.
    I took another step back and looked at bumping these guys to Sv3+, in part because I'm getting around to doing Myrmidons and boy are they not a distinct profile by default... this brought me to comparing Thallaxii to Hellblasters with Assault Plasma Incinerators. If we assume Thallaxii are bumped to 3+/5++:
  • Both are CORE, non-Troop INFANTRY.
  • Hellblasters are okay. They're not blowing anyone's minds, but they're not the bottom of the barrel, either.
  • The lightning gun is about 2/3 as strong as the Assault Plasma Incinerator on standard fire mode, and 1/3 as strong as the API on supercharge against Marines, tanks, etc.
  • However, the Thallaxii have +2M and FLY, making them much more mobile.
  • They also have +1W and a 5+ Invulnerable save, making them much more durable. (x1.5 tougher at minimum, x2 at max)
  • They're also just as strong in melee, with access to special weapons to improve their damage output.
  • To give a direct comparison, 5 Hellblasters costs 165 points. Shooting into a mob of Kabalites with API, they'll score 6.94 unsaved wounds. 6 Thallaxii cost 150. Shooting a unit of Kabalites with lightning guns, they'll score 4.44 unsaved wounds. However, 20 Kabalites shooting back will kill 2 Hellblasters and only 1 Thallaxii. The durability increase only improves against higher AP.


  • So at 3+/5++, compared to Hellblasters of equal cost, they'd be 0.66-0.33x as killy, but 1.5x harder to kill, and 1.3x faster. I'm wondering if they'd even need a points bump, with that in mind, except that I'm concerned it'd make Sicarians even less attractive. Thallaxi cost 1.5x as much, but they're 3x tougher against small arms and 1.5x tougher against plasma, they can FLY, and their damage output is... about the same, actually, at least for Ursaraxii vs Ruststalkers. Hm. It really might be fine.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/08 19:10:11


     
       
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    Curious - why would thallaxi be Skitarii (Doctrina Imperatives) rather than Cult Mechanicus? I thought the Ordo Reductor was a subsect of the Cult Mechanicus, and that's primarily who used Thallax?

    "I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

    -the_scotsman"

    -ERJAK 
       
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     the_scotsman wrote:
    Curious - why would thallaxi be Skitarii (Doctrina Imperatives) rather than Cult Mechanicus? I thought the Ordo Reductor was a subsect of the Cult Mechanicus, and that's primarily who used Thallax?
    In the days of the Horus Heresy and Great Crusade, the Ordo Reductor seems like it was distinct enough from the greater Adeptus Mechanicus that it could probably be its own faction keyword, joining SKITARII and CULT MECHANICUS, with no <FORGE WORLD>. I don't know if that's true in the "modern" setting, because we know relatively little about the Ordo Reductor except that it still exists in some form or another, but I will quite firmly say no to the idea of adding a third axis to the overcomplicated pit of rule-snakes that is AdMech. Or a fourth, with LEGIO CYBERNETICA. Instead, I'm siphoning the 30k stuff off into the existing two "subfactions"; Secutarii and Thallaxii are Skitarii, Myrmidons and Krios Tanks are Cult Mechanicus, etc.

    To actually answer your question, I slotted LORICA THALLAX units under SKITARII rather than CULT MECHANICUS for a few reasons:
  • In lore terms, Thallaxii are created from particularly unlucky and/or strong-willed Skitarii (or other bionic AdMech security forces), so it makes sense to fold them into SKITARII as the "next rung" on the ladder of cybernetic extremities. Skitarii, Sicarians, Thallaxii. They were primarily used by the Ordo Reductor, sure, but as a direct substitute for Skitarii, so the analogue makes sense.
  • In terms of unit design, the Thallaxii are professional cyber soldiers organized into units with a single standard firearm each and a variety of limited special guns to choose from. That fits SKITARII much better than the CULT MECHANICUS units, which are all tech-priests and their direct slaves/constructs.
  • In terms of mechanics, it helps keep them more distinct from "light Kataphrons". Plus Machine Superiority fits them better than Electro-Shocked, and the Skitarii Warlord traits fit them pretty well, too; the whole SKITARII dynamic fits them better than CULT MECHANICUS.
  • Also, almost everything in 30k is, if it's not ORDO REDUCTOR/LEGIO CYBERNETICA, pretty clearly CULT MECHANICUS, with LORICA THALLAX and SECUTARII units being the only possible exceptions. Given I'm adapting all the 30k units, SKITARII have some ground to make up!
       
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    makes sense then.

    Taking a moment to compare mainly the ironsides to another unit...I'm gonna pick "bolter Inceptors" as they probably have the most similar schtick/statline...

    1) I think standard deep strike makes more sense than the 'no deep strike within 12"' rule

    2) djinn-sight seems a little too powerful to me, particularly given that this unit is a mult-melta platform. perhaps it could ignore all cover, including Dense Cover, but not all to-hit modifiers? then you may not need to make all the weapons quite as strong to offset the multi-melta's presence.

    Really looking forward to you getting to the Thanatar, given that that's the model that has the least good analogue for me to play it in 40k!

    "I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

    -the_scotsman"

    -ERJAK 
       
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     the_scotsman wrote:
    Taking a moment to compare mainly the ironsides to another unit...I'm gonna pick "bolter Inceptors" as they probably have the most similar schtick/statline...
    Huh, yeah, that's not a bad comparison. Not sure why I overlooked them. Bolter Inceptors cost 1.8x as much, but have:
  • Mobility: Inceptors are +1.25x faster and have Deep Strike
  • Offensive: Inceptors are about 1.5-2x stronger, depending on the target, though Thallaxii also have access to special weapons and ignore penalties to hit
  • Durability: Inceptors are about 2-3x tougher against most guns, with Thallaxii pulling even only against AP-3 and above
  • Other: Thallaxii make Deep Strike harder, Inceptors ignore Combat Attrition penalties and have broader access to buffs/Stratagems

  • With all that in mind, I'm definitely going with the 3+ Save on Thallaxii; it brings Inceptors down to being 1.5x tougher against most guns, while still drawing even against AP-3 and above. That means Inceptors cost 1.8x as much, but are 1.5-2x better in basically every area. Comparing Ursaraxii to Power Fist Storm Shield Vanguard Veterans clinches it; Vanguard Veterans cost +1.3x more, but are +1.3x tougher than Sv3+ Ursaraxii, hit +1.3-1.5x harder with Shock Assault, are +1.5x faster with Deep Strike, and have better Morale. They miss out on the Volkite Incinerator, but the other benefits handle that, I think. At most I'd need to bump both up to 26 points to be safe.

     the_scotsman wrote:
    1) I think standard deep strike makes more sense than the 'no deep strike within 12"' rule
    How do you mean? The text is copied direct from Infiltrators, the Clamavus, etc; as in, you think they just shouldn't have the ability?

    The other version of the ability I had was:
  • Electroceptor Interceptor: Each time you use the Infoslave Skull Stratagem, if you select this unit, reduce the Command point cost of that Stratagem by 2.

  • That's a free Auspex Scan Strat on these guys - which ties into their shooting focus quite neatly, but allows the opponent to choose whether they want to Deep Strike anyway and risk it, and is also limited to once per round.

     the_scotsman wrote:
    2) djinn-sight seems a little too powerful to me, particularly given that this unit is a mult-melta platform. perhaps it could ignore all cover, including Dense Cover, but not all to-hit modifiers? then you may not need to make all the weapons quite as strong to offset the multi-melta's presence.
    Djinn-Sight was copied from similar abilities on Kabalite Trueborn, Incursors, Electro-Priests, and the Hexmark Destroyer, but given only one of those has access to Assault/Heavy weapons, it's definitely something that might need looking at. If nothing else, I absolutely need to remove "no Ballistic Skill modifiers", since that negates the downside of Doctrina Imperatives.

     the_scotsman wrote:
    Really looking forward to you getting to the Thanatar, given that that's the model that has the least good analogue for me to play it in 40k!
    god, robots are being a real pain

    I actually plan to rewrite the Kastelan and Datasmith (and UR-025) to suit a broader ROBOT paradigm. I've got multiple different versions of the general, robot-wide programmed behaviour ability in the works, not yet sure which I prefer. I'll have to work it out.

    This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/06/10 06:05:52


     
       
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    Sorry, all my critiques on the power budget of the unit should be couched with....for 25pts per model.

    In general, i dislike the 'no deep strikey' ability on anything that can be spammed in the troops role. I've found that armies that use a large number of the marine troops that have that rule are just absolutely miserable to play against if you have even a couple critical units that have deep strike, and there's a wide difference between paying 65pts for that ability on a single 25mm base character in GSC that is limited to one per detachment, and paying 75pts for a unit of 3 40mm bases that you can string out in a line.

    Additionally the reason I advocate swapping it out for deep strike is that it makes very little intuitive sense to me that a unit with gigantic jet packs that has deep strike in 30k would for some reason not have it when translated to 40k. they would seem to fulfil a similar role to Inceptors, being fairly tough for their points units that you can use to either take up board space and run as bouncers in front of your shooty unit or you can deep strike and attack infantry.

    I'm confused as to where you get that Inceptors are "2x-3x tougher' though - theyve got 1pt of toughness and no invulnerable. If you set the value of combat doctrines and doctrinas as roughly equivalent (doctrinas are far better in my opinion, but just assume) you're basically looking at a roughly 1.5x offense, slightly tougher, slightly more mobile unit for 1.8x the cost with slightly less melee capabilities and the ability to take special weapons including a multimelta, and ignore all to hit penalties.

    The value I'd probably give their current statline base would be roughly 35pts. with deep strike swapped out for the no deep strike within 12, probably about 32ppm is where I'd use them at.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 11:41:20


    "I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

    -the_scotsman"

    -ERJAK 
       
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    Just to note some changes:
  • Thallaxii and Ursaraxii now cost 28 points each, with no changes to Power Rating.
  • Inescapable Electroception has been swapped for Electroceptive Interceptor, allowing Deep Strike but giving a 1CP discount on the Auspex Scan equivalent.
  • Phased Plasma-Fusils have a reduced range of 18".
  • Djinn-Sight only allows you to ignore cover, not Doctrina Imperatives, Heavy/Assault (which I will miss), or enemy penalties. I might return the general "ignore hit penalties" benefit, but we'll have to see.

  •  the_scotsman wrote:
    In general, i dislike the 'no deep strikey' ability on anything that can be spammed in the troops role. I've found that armies that use a large number of the marine troops that have that rule are just absolutely miserable to play against if you have even a couple critical units that have deep strike, and there's a wide difference between paying 65pts for that ability on a single 25mm base character in GSC that is limited to one per detachment, and paying 75pts for a unit of 3 40mm bases that you can string out in a line.
    That's a fair criticism, yeah; the ability does seem to have proliferated a fair amount, and Infiltrators pay out the nose for it (even if they're Troops rather than Elites). I've swapped it out for a weaker version of the Infoslave Skull discount I posted above, which feels more dynamic and interesting. Not sure if it should be increased to a 2 CP discount; that'd effectively return it to a free "you can't deep strike here" bubble of 12", but just once-per-round and allows the enemy to risk it anyway if you're feeling brave.

     the_scotsman wrote:
    Additionally the reason I advocate swapping it out for deep strike is that it makes very little intuitive sense to me that a unit with gigantic jet packs that has deep strike in 30k would for some reason not have it when translated to 40k. they would seem to fulfil a similar role to Inceptors, being fairly tough for their points units that you can use to either take up board space and run as bouncers in front of your shooty unit or you can deep strike and attack infantry.
    They actually don't have Deep Strike in 30k; you have to buy that upgrade via implanted teleportation devices, alongside options like Tank Hunters, anti-AIRCRAFT bonuses, or melee buffs. That feels a bit odd, really, but I suppose they're too heavy to just fly into battle on their own? They were JET PACK rather than JUMP PACK, after all; I've only used JUMP PACK here for consistency with Pteraxii (which is also a bit odd, because I don't think any rules in the new codex even reference JUMP PACK; it's all just PTERAXII).

    There are other FLY units that can't arrive via Deep Strike, after all; Scourges and Drukhari Vehicles, T'au battlesuits, Bloat Drones, etc.

     the_scotsman wrote:
    I'm confused as to where you get that Inceptors are "2x-3x tougher' though - theyve got 1pt of toughness and no invulnerable. If you set the value of combat doctrines and doctrinas as roughly equivalent (doctrinas are far better in my opinion, but just assume) you're basically looking at a roughly 1.5x offense, slightly tougher, slightly more mobile unit for 1.8x the cost with slightly less melee capabilities and the ability to take special weapons including a multimelta, and ignore all to hit penalties.
    Yes, sorry, that wasn't clear; I was talking about the version that had a 4+ Save. When Thallaxii had Sv4+/5++, Inceptors were 2-3x tougher against anything but AP-3/4, 1.25x faster (with Deep Strike), and hit 1.5-2x harder. In exchange, they cost 1.8x as much.

    Now that Thallaxii have Sv3+ and cost 28 points, Inceptors are 1.5x tougher (with better Morale), 1.25x faster (plus Deep Strike), and hit 1.5-2x harder. In exchange, they cost 1.6x more. Similarly, now that Ursaraxii have Sv3+ and cost 28 points, Vanguard Veterans are +1.3x tougher (with better Morale), 1.5x faster (plus Deep Strike), and hit equally hard. In exchange, they cost 1.2x more.

    EDIT: Comparing it internally...
    Spoiler:
    Thallaxii are 2-3x tougher than Pteraxii, 0.66 as fast (with no Deep Strike), and hit 1.2-2.4x harder. They also swap Arc Grenades for Infoslave, and trade fall back+shoot for ignoring cover. In exchange, they cost 1.66 times more. That seems... borderline at best. Against Sterylizors, though, they're 2-3x tougher, 0.66x as fast, and hit 0.66-1x as hard. They also lose Deep Strike and fall-back-and-charge, but cost 1.5x as much. That seems much more appropriate, so maybe I'm just looking at Skystalkers wrong, or they're a bit under-gunned/overpriced; I could see them at 16.

    For Ursaraxii... all flavours of Sicarians are just as fast, but swap FLY for Infiltration or ignoring movement penalties. The Ursaraxii is 2-3x tougher, hits 0.9-1.3x harder, and costs 1.66x times more. That seems on the low end, once again. Tricky. But a Kataphron-Thallaxii comparison looks fine; Kataphrons average 1.3x tougher, and deal 1.5-3x as much damage at 2x the range, but are 0.75x as fast with no FLY and miss out on Djinn-Sight/Interception as well as CORE. In exchange, they cost 1.4x as much. Hmmm.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/10 16:40:55


     
       
     
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