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Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






I have to say i'm against t5 orks as i think they just kind of break the setting, especially in relations to space marines.

marines were made to fight things the imperial guard had problems with. The IG likely, especially early on, fought rebellious humans, so a S3 weapon against targets that are mostly T3 was ok. orks were T4 making them tough for IG to bring down, but Marines had S4 weapons that were effective vs orks.

Now making orks t5 makes a standard bolter relatively ineffective against them. I assume the bolter was designed to be effective against some of the targets marines would be firing on mostly, and orks are definitely on that list. But if orks go t5 it means the bolter was relatively ineffective against them from the get go, which makes the bolter less of an impressive weapon. I'd assume a marines primary weapon would be made to have at least half a chance of wounding an ork, one of their main opponents.

it just doesn't seem right to make a marines main weapon relatively ineffective against one of their main opponents. Linda breaks immersion a bit.

Plus orks will have to be expensive in points now, and orks have traditionally been a green tide army that often wins thru sheer numbers. Boosting their costs to a fair level will really cut down on the size of ork armies. I'd prefer to howling green tide ork army, seems more orky to me.

lastly it makes orks tougher than marines. I really just don't like it, not as a marine player and certainly not as a closet matt ward. Orks should be tougher than a human, yes, tougher, bigger, etc, But a marine is meant to be a human that's been genetically, biologically and surgically modified to be tougher than human too. Putting them on par with orks showed how hard it was to make a human tough as an ork. A human has 19 implants, years of surgery, a carapace, fused ribs, larraman cells, etc to be t4, an ork just pops out of the ground and is t5 now?

i just think it kinda of ruins immersion. IG mostly fight heretics, rebels, etc, and being on par with them is ok. Marines fighter tougher stuff, they should be on par or better than what they fight because they were designed by the freakin' emperor to be at least on par with them.

T5 orks just seem to break the setting. But hey, as a necron i can at least be on par with them since my troops can now take S5 weapons routinely...



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/15 17:58:54


"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






You are right ofc.

Typical anti space marine rhetoric will follow though...bolter porn...ect. They should have just given orks a FNP if they wanted to make them tougher.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 18:05:30


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






I wouldn't say it breaks the setting at all, because while bolters are definitely more effective than lasguns against Orks, there's been stories of Orks surviving bolter rounds before (that's actually how Ghazghkull's story starts since he goes in to see Mad Dok Grotsnik since part of his skull got blown off) and frankly the game does not equal the fluff. You have to abstract a lot of stuff when you're making a game and what can actually be translated over from the fluff into what works into it. You could easily just as much argue how a grot in CC can cause a wound on a Baneblade. Realistically, SM would be more outnumbered than they are now in a lot of fights in game. Guys like the Silent King would never take to the field in some small skirmish, etc.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





What do you feel toughness represents as an individual quality.

It’s something to do with the ability to absorb damage. Orks can recover from wounds that astartes can not, like having your head cut off.

If SM are getting more wounds then Orks should have more wounds or toughness, I don’t think this breaks the fluff at all
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






mrFickle wrote:
What do you feel toughness represents as an individual quality.

It’s something to do with the ability to absorb damage. Orks can recover from wounds that astartes can not, like having your head cut off.

If SM are getting more wounds then Orks should have more wounds or toughness, I don’t think this breaks the fluff at all

Whatever T represents. There is no question that a bolter is more powerful than a lasgun and they do a lot more damage. Lasgun and bolter are now equal vs an ork. Ultimately Their points is going to have to be at least 10 now that I have put real thought into it.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






No because the game stats have little to no bearing on the lore. Lore will do whatever it wants with anything it wants. SM need to be massacred to make an enemy seem like a credible threat? It'll happen. A platoon of Guardsmen hold off an entire Ork Waaaagh? It'll happen.
Orks have been able to shrug off or die to whatever a writer wants and that has always been the case.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 18:33:24


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
What do you feel toughness represents as an individual quality.

It’s something to do with the ability to absorb damage. Orks can recover from wounds that astartes can not, like having your head cut off.

If SM are getting more wounds then Orks should have more wounds or toughness, I don’t think this breaks the fluff at all

Whatever T represents. There is no question that a bolter is more powerful than a lasgun and they do a lot more damage. Lasgun and bolter are now equal vs an ork. Ultimately Their points is going to have to be at least 10 now that I have put real thought into it.


But are they equal vs other opponents? This is game dynamics we’re talking about, now. To achieve a true gradient of weapon damage that could represent such a diverse universe we would need to work on a scale of 1-100 for strength and toughness.
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






mrFickle wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
What do you feel toughness represents as an individual quality.

It’s something to do with the ability to absorb damage. Orks can recover from wounds that astartes can not, like having your head cut off.

If SM are getting more wounds then Orks should have more wounds or toughness, I don’t think this breaks the fluff at all

Whatever T represents. There is no question that a bolter is more powerful than a lasgun and they do a lot more damage. Lasgun and bolter are now equal vs an ork. Ultimately Their points is going to have to be at least 10 now that I have put real thought into it.


But are they equal vs other opponents? This is game dynamics we’re talking about, now. To achieve a true gradient of weapon damage that could represent such a diverse universe we would need to work on a scale of 1-100 for strength and toughness.


Yeah, with the D6 system, and GW's unwillingness to go past the T8 cap they've set for themselves, there's really not enough granularity to show the nuances between the different levels of strength and physical toughness of each race.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






mrFickle wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
What do you feel toughness represents as an individual quality.

It’s something to do with the ability to absorb damage. Orks can recover from wounds that astartes can not, like having your head cut off.

If SM are getting more wounds then Orks should have more wounds or toughness, I don’t think this breaks the fluff at all

Whatever T represents. There is no question that a bolter is more powerful than a lasgun and they do a lot more damage. Lasgun and bolter are now equal vs an ork. Ultimately Their points is going to have to be at least 10 now that I have put real thought into it.


But are they equal vs other opponents? This is game dynamics we’re talking about, now. To achieve a true gradient of weapon damage that could represent such a diverse universe we would need to work on a scale of 1-100 for strength and toughness.

FNP 6+ would have been more than adequate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
What do you feel toughness represents as an individual quality.

It’s something to do with the ability to absorb damage. Orks can recover from wounds that astartes can not, like having your head cut off.

If SM are getting more wounds then Orks should have more wounds or toughness, I don’t think this breaks the fluff at all

Whatever T represents. There is no question that a bolter is more powerful than a lasgun and they do a lot more damage. Lasgun and bolter are now equal vs an ork. Ultimately Their points is going to have to be at least 10 now that I have put real thought into it.


But are they equal vs other opponents? This is game dynamics we’re talking about, now. To achieve a true gradient of weapon damage that could represent such a diverse universe we would need to work on a scale of 1-100 for strength and toughness.


Yeah, with the D6 system, and GW's unwillingness to go past the T8 cap they've set for themselves, there's really not enough granularity to show the nuances between the different levels of strength and physical toughness of each race.

That is a good point. The T8 cap does have a lot to do with this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 18:42:47


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






T5 Ork Boyz... It doesn't feel right.

This is the direct result of the overuse of weapon AP. The Ork Boyz 6+ save is worthless and so to compensate their toughness is being boosted.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Love to see game mechanic discussion in the background forum.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 oni wrote:
T5 Ork Boyz... It doesn't feel right.

This is the direct result of the overuse of weapon AP. The Ork Boyz 6+ save is worthless and so to compensate their toughness is being boosted.


Orks are a horde army on the table, the green horde is what GW want to represent but then they need to be easy to kill. I’m not sure how it will work out but maybe GW are happy to have less of a horde on the table for Orks.

But fluff wise Orks a hard and very resilient to damage. So fluff wise I think it’s fine.

I’ve previously thought it would be fun to have a gang of Orks or gretchin in necromunda where they are super dangerous and very hard to kill as a juxtaposition to their 40K role.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Remember, a model removed as a casualty doesn’t represent an actual kill.

It can be a warrior too badly injured to carry on, or simply knocked out.

T5 represents that for Orks, they may not be hard to inflict physical injury on, but bloody difficult to cripple. Clip most other beings with a Bolt round, and you’re doing enough damage to send them into shock. Orks, not so much.

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Made in us
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva





I play both Space Marines and Orks. The needed something to keep them on the table. Multiple wounds no that's a marine thing. Special armor save no most orks wear t-shirts. Toughness that's it! It will allow Orks to not get blasted off the table turn one. Don't worry Marine players you'll get another fancy unit or tank next month. Don't begrudge your classic opponents a boast. It will only make the game more interesting. Now if only GW upgrades the Eldar. That will create some extra fun.

 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran




Sweden

They might at most break the game at a stretch, but not the setting.

Game rules and background are only loosely connected. Chaos Space Marines remained T3 for a while after Imperial Space Marines got T4 in early 40k. Likewise CSM were shoddier than their loyalist counterparts for most editions. So much for selling your soul away for worldly powers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/15 19:43:50


   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




 Gert wrote:
No because the game stats have little to no bearing on the lore. Lore will do whatever it wants with anything it wants. SM need to be massacred to make an enemy seem like a credible threat? It'll happen. A platoon of Guardsmen hold off an entire Ork Waaaagh? It'll happen.
Orks have been able to shrug off or die to whatever a writer wants and that has always been the case.


This.
Fluff didn't change when SM got a second wound and it won't change because of T5 Orks. It didn't even change when vehicles lost firing arcs for that matter
I also think it feels fluffy for Orks and for a horde army it is a much better choice than 6+++, which would mean endless rolling.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Pointer5 wrote:
I play both Space Marines and Orks. The needed something to keep them on the table. Multiple wounds no that's a marine thing. Special armor save no most orks wear t-shirts. Toughness that's it! It will allow Orks to not get blasted off the table turn one. Don't worry Marine players you'll get another fancy unit or tank next month. Don't begrudge your classic opponents a boast. It will only make the game more interesting. Now if only GW upgrades the Eldar. That will create some extra fun.
It will probably be okay...but...da jump has gotta go...Unfortuantely...GW is likely gonna let the spell double cast for 1 CP and there goes the ball game.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Orks, the sentient fungus capable of losing limbs and head but still fighting, getting harder to wound but still much easier to kill than a Marine? That won’t break the setting.

Now, CSM being entirely weaker than loyalist Marines in many ways, THAT feels wrong. But Orks being tough? Feels good

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva





Orks that can move. Da jump won't be a problem most armies have a way of quickly closing with the enemy. At least now overwatch exists. T5 Orks just a new wrinkle in the game. Now everyone will be able to work on new ways to take advantage of it and find new ways to beat it.

 
   
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Nashville, TN

 Xenomancers wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
What do you feel toughness represents as an individual quality.

It’s something to do with the ability to absorb damage. Orks can recover from wounds that astartes can not, like having your head cut off.

If SM are getting more wounds then Orks should have more wounds or toughness, I don’t think this breaks the fluff at all

Whatever T represents. There is no question that a bolter is more powerful than a lasgun and they do a lot more damage. Lasgun and bolter are now equal vs an ork. Ultimately Their points is going to have to be at least 10 now that I have put real thought into it.


This is more a result of using s D6 instead of say a D10. Less granularity for the stats to have.

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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





It's just the first step towards squashing the older models that survived the culling of the eighth.

-T5 orks mandate S5 weapons to be taken in greater quantities during the first few months of ork codex release.
-more and more armies follow suit, now every army has S5 as base.
-marine players cry for buffs. primaris is only one that gets upgraded into T5.
-people refuse to use T4 firstborns, firstborns eventually get phased out.
-execute order 66.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 20:53:13


 
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






 Matt Swain wrote:

Now making orks t5 makes a standard bolter relatively ineffective against them. I assume the bolter was designed to be effective against some of the targets marines would be firing on mostly, and orks are definitely on that list. But if orks go t5 it means the bolter was relatively ineffective against them from the get go, which makes the bolter less of an impressive weapon. I'd assume a marines primary weapon would be made to have at least half a chance of wounding an ork, one of their main opponents.


I had the same thought when I saw Orks were going up to T5. When I first read about Orks when I was getting into 40k, these hulking creatures that didn't feel pain and found ultra-violence to be funny well I thought for sure they'd be hard to take down. Either a high toughness, high wounds, or Feel No Pain. Personally I was in the FnP camp since it seems to match their biology the most, and a Painboy improving that to 5+ sounds great.

I'm not opposed to Orks being T5 as a different solution, and that's not just because I'm an Ork Player That said the bolter, the holy weapon the Emperor designed and was wildly successful during the Great Crusade, well, it should be pretty effective against the enemies of the Emperor. Especially those Orks that were causing quite a ruckus until they were soundly beaten and control was transferred over to that swell guy Horus on Ullanor.

From a lore perspective T5 Orks isn't unreasonable, but if we stick with the idea that Marines are meant to be as Tough as Orks and their bolters lethal to them then it follows that Marines should also be T5 and have S5 bolters. Where does that rabbit hole lead. Well if you have S5 bolters how many other S4 weapons should be S5? If Marines are T5 which other infantry should get +1 T? Now we've got a whole game to rebalance

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a test run, if it works out and Orks don't bungle up the game balance we may see T5 super-infantry and S5 infantry weapons commonplace in 10th edition.
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





From a gameplay point, no it probably won't have a massive effect. A bolter wounds slightly less often, but will still penetrate saves and can come out in massive numbers. A lot of other armies just won't care much. Guard, Dark elder and Nids won't even feel the difference outside of some edge cases.

From a fluff point of view. Now that the standard of tough super species (marines) has gotten an extra wound it feels more viable. An ork can recover from or sustain worse injuries before being killed outright, but it'll take more punch to incapacitate a marine for the duration of the battle.

Remember orks have an almost Deadpool silly level of healing, limbs can be stapled back on, their skin is often described as leather tough and are a species known for ridiculous feats of endurance as long as the adrenaline is flowing, even fighting when technically dead! Marines and guard alike have cursed their durability. T4 with a 6+ felt laughably squishy, they were almost classed as light infantry. With a T5 and that same save (though hopefully we can keep the abilities to buff it we have now) I think we can respectably class them as medium infantry and that feels about right.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 skchsan wrote:
It's just the first step towards squashing the older models that survived the culling of the eighth.

-T5 orks mandate S5 weapons to be taken in greater quantities during the first few months of ork codex release.
-more and more armies follow suit, now every army has S5 as base.
-marine players cry for buffs. primaris is only one that gets upgraded into T5.
-people refuse to use T4 firstborns, firstborns eventually get phased out.
-execute order 66.



your tinfoil hat's a bit tight dude. seriously after the firstborn marines where increased to 2 wounds I woulda thought this kinda crap had ended. Marines got their second wound added on everything, that is thew answer to feelings of marines being weaker. this is basicly a case of GW giving multiple armies that should be tough but haven't felt it for ages an upgraded in differant directions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 22:53:18


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Boosting Black Templar Biker






Absolutely agreed, I don't think T5 with a t-shirt save is going to break the gameplay at all.

But when you think of classic infantry almost all of their basic weapons are S4, your Bolters, Gauss Flayers, Shuriken Catapult & Sluggas/Shootas because all the classic infantry targets have been T3/T4 with a few exceptions.

When a classic infantry like Boyz become T5 it's a bit of an upheaval to that dynamic. Thankfully it's Boyz who got the bump and not something already durable so it'll cause less of a ripple effect.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




It is very immersion breaking for me. As your typical anti-Ork weapons, IE: Bolter and more importantly Heavy Bolter are suppose to be Ork killers. Yet both will now be doing much worse against them.

I would have preferred 2 wounds. Maybe even a 5+ armour save. If a shirtless Catachan can get a 5+ save then an Ork should as well. Hell, perhaps both of those buffs at the same time.

I can only imagine that Ork bikers will be T6 now. Lasguns will wound them on 6's, and Heavy Bolters on 5's. Crazy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/15 23:10:56


 
   
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New Jersey, State of Perfection

Game != Setting. The game rules have never been an accurate reflection of the setting, I don't see why that would change now.

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In My Lab

Jarms48 wrote:
It is very immersion breaking for me. As your typical anti-Ork weapons, IE: Bolter and more importantly Heavy Bolter are suppose to be Ork killers. Yet both will now be doing much worse against them.

I would have preferred 2 wounds. Maybe even a 5+ armour save. If a shirtless Catachan can get a 5+ save then an Ork should as well. Hell, perhaps both of those buffs at the same time.

I can only imagine that Ork bikers will be T6 now. Lasguns will wound them on 6's, and Heavy Bolters on 5's. Crazy.
Just to be clear, you'd rather Ork Boys have two wounds at T4 (meaning they'd need 6 Bolt Rifle shots to put down) instead of one wound at T5 (needing 4.5 shots to put down) because that'd make them feel less tough?

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Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Just to be clear, you'd rather Ork Boys have two wounds at T4 (meaning they'd need 6 Bolt Rifle shots to put down) instead of one wound at T5 (needing 4.5 shots to put down) because that'd make them feel less tough?


Yes, because it means weapons like the stalker bolt rifle and heavy bolter will be the same as they are now. It makes them more resilient to small arms fire, not heavier weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 00:28:22


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





It doesn't break the game but it does change it in a less than satisfying way. Orks are tough but they are not T5 tough. That doesn't pass the authenticity test and it makes a lot of lore sound absurd, especially as Marines are supposed to be a hard counter to Orks. Wounding on 5's they aren't

As mentioned already the only way this feels better is if the T8 softcap is removed and more granularity is introduced
   
 
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