Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Came back to 40k, first game last night in a year/18months, i thought GW were clearing up rules? I don't even think i played as Marines once in 9th yet except last night.

Marine codex:

Shock Assault:
Each time this unit fights, if it made a charge move, was charged, or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn, then until that fight is resolved, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit.

Red Thrist:
Each time a model with this tactic makes a melee attack, if that model's unit made a charge move, was charged or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn, add 1 to that attack's wound roll.

So is the bolded bit, an addition to the Shock Assault rule, and has deliberately not been added to Red Thirst? Black Rage is the same wording (except no being charged) as Shock Assault.

I have no idea what state the game is in, so i don't know what's OP etc so am presuming that Shock Assault will last until the fight is revolved, and not just the current fight phase?

Thanks in advance.

“That fight” is resolved during the Fight Phase of that turn. You don’t keep the benefit in following turns unless you have again charged, been charged or Heroically Interneved.

If you charge during your charge phase then you get the benefits until the end of your turn. If the combat continues into the opponent's turn then you will no longer get those benefits (unless the opponent charges another unit into them). If all of the enemy combatants end up dead then you can potentially charge something the next turn and get the benefit again.

It is actually somewhat rare for combats to go on for multiple turns. Either one side will wipe the other out or one of the parties will clearly be at a disadvantage and they will fall back.

 eskimo wrote:
Came back to 40k, first game last night in a year/18months, i thought GW were clearing up rules? I don't even think i played as Marines once in 9th yet except last night.

Marine codex:

Shock Assault:
Each time this unit fights, if it made a charge move, was charged, or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn, then until that fight is resolved, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit.

Red Thrist:
Each time a model with this tactic makes a melee attack, if that model's unit made a charge move, was charged or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn, add 1 to that attack's wound roll.

So is the bolded bit, an addition to the Shock Assault rule, and has deliberately not been added to Red Thirst? Black Rage is the same wording (except no being charged) as Shock Assault.

And that absence is functionally irrelevant. The only difference is when the check is made. Shock Assault is checked each time the unit fights and last for the fight. Red Thirst is checked each time the model makes a melee attack and last for that attack. Neither of these effects last past the turn.

So if a Blood Angels unit charges, is charged, or performs an heroic invention, each time it fights for the rest of that turn all models in the unit add 1 tot their Attack characteristics. Additionally, each time a model in that unit makes an attack for the rest of the turn it adds 1 to that attack's wound roll.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
“That fight” is resolved during the Fight Phase of that turn. You don’t keep the benefit in following turns unless you have again charged, been charged or Heroically Interneved.

Citation please. I don't see anything in the rules that says that a fight is resolved In the same fight phase where it started. Attacks are resolved.

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
“That fight” is resolved during the Fight Phase of that turn. You don’t keep the benefit in following turns unless you have again charged, been charged or Heroically Interneved.

Citation please. I don't see anything in the rules that says that a fight is resolved In the same fight phase where it started. Attacks are resolved.

How about you provide a citation for once instead of another “citation please” that adds nothing?

But since you asked here is your cast-iron definition of what a Fight is and what steps you take to resolve it…

FIGHT
When you select a unit to fight, it first piles in, then the models in the unit must make close combat attacks, and then the unit consolidates.

From the Core Rules. Similar definition in the Glossary. This tells you exactly how to resolve a fight. Fight is a defined rules term, not a descriptor for melee combat over several turns/battle rounds as you seem to be misinterpreting it as.

You said that the fight is resolved in the fight phase, you have to provide a citation. Your citation says nothing that supports what you said. It says how to fight, but it doesn't say that the fight is actually resolved.

Why don't you provide us your rule definition and the citation for it? Then we can move on.

 p5freak wrote:
You said that the fight is resolved in the fight phase, you have to provide a citation. Your citation says nothing that supports what you said. It says how to fight, but it doesn't say that the fight is actually resolved.

Actually it does. It states how a fight, singular, starts and ends.

You have provided nothing that supports your position.

A citation for what ? I didn't claim anything. I want to see a citation when a fight is resolved.

You don't get to go "No, that isn't the right answer. Try again". Since you rejected the citation that was given you must have an alternate definition of when a fight ends. As such you should give us that definition and its citation and then we can all consider the discussion closed.

p5freak, let’s see something from you. I’ve given a solid citation. Let’s see one from you, or maybe let’s not play the contrarian… the other guy seems to not be posting and it’s not a void that needs filling.

 p5freak wrote:
A citation for what ? I didn't claim anything. I want to see a citation when a fight is resolved.

The act of "fighting" is only defined in the Fight Phase, with the quotation previously given.

The term "resolved" is not defined in the rules, so we can only use the normal English definition (dealt with, cleared up).

Shock Assault kicks in when the unit is selected to fight, and stops when that fight is resolved. Therefore, Shock Assault concludes once that unit has finished its sequence of piling in, attacking and consolidating. If the unit is called upon to fight again in the same turn, Shock Assault triggers again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 eskimo wrote:
So is the bolded bit, an addition to the Shock Assault rule, and has deliberately not been added to Red Thirst? Black Rage is the same wording (except no being charged) as Shock Assault.

Shock Assault modifies a characteristic, whereas Red Thirst modifies a specific roll of the dice. Because of this, Shock Assault needs a defined timeframe; without the wording "until that fight is resolved", players could argue that you add the attack when the unit is selected to fight, but stays with the unit after it has fought.

Red Thirst doesn't need this, because you add to the dice roll when you roll it during that same turn, so it lacks the same wording.

 Cheex wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A citation for what ? I didn't claim anything. I want to see a citation when a fight is resolved.

The act of "fighting" is only defined in the Fight Phase, with the quotation previously given.

The term "resolved" is not defined in the rules, so we can only use the normal English definition (dealt with, cleared up).

Agreed. The rules don't define when a fight is resolved, or dealt with/cleared up. It could continue in the next fight phase, as long as there are enemy models in engagement range. We don't know that. If the fight continues shock assault still applies in the next fight phase.

A fight is a clearly defined instance, it ends with the consolidation move.
That's pretty clear in the quote that JohnnyHell provided.

You're really taking the piss now Pfreak.

 p5freak wrote:

 Cheex wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A citation for what ? I didn't claim anything. I want to see a citation when a fight is resolved.

The act of "fighting" is only defined in the Fight Phase, with the quotation previously given.

The term "resolved" is not defined in the rules, so we can only use the normal English definition (dealt with, cleared up).

Agreed. The rules don't define when a fight is resolved, or dealt with/cleared up. It could continue in the next fight phase, as long as there are enemy models in engagement range. We don't know that. If the fight continues shock assault still applies in the next fight phase.

Nope, I posted a quote telling you what a fight is. Resolved is plan English in lieu of a rules term.

If you refuse to apply plain English and logic to the rules then there is no point in you debating here. The matter is settled by the core rules, whether you like it or not. You seem to simply be playing the contrarian if you cannot accept what the word resolved means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
A fight is a clearly defined instance, it ends with the consolidation move.
That's pretty clear in the quote that JohnnyHell provided.

You're really taking the piss now Pfreak.

100%

Shock assault used to say until the end of the turn, which was very clear, it only lasted for the turn. Now it has been changed to until that fight is resolved. Why was this changed ? Maybe because a fight isn't resolved until there aren't any more enemy models within engagement range ?

A fight has already been defined, you don't need to postulate.
Is there any reason you're ignoring the definition provided earlier?

Yes. He's p5freak

I have nothing to contribute to this debate. But after skimming some of these threads I am just gonne ignore p5freak so I do not have to read these things.

 p5freak wrote:

 Cheex wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A citation for what ? I didn't claim anything. I want to see a citation when a fight is resolved.

The act of "fighting" is only defined in the Fight Phase, with the quotation previously given.

The term "resolved" is not defined in the rules, so we can only use the normal English definition (dealt with, cleared up).

Agreed. The rules don't define when a fight is resolved, or dealt with/cleared up. It could continue in the next fight phase, as long as there are enemy models in engagement range. We don't know that. If the fight continues shock assault still applies in the next fight phase.

How do you get from "we don't know that" to a conclusion that "shock assault still applies in the next fight phase"? You need to provide positive evidence for why it would still apply, not just appeal to a supposed lack of evidence that it does not. Also, your exhausting habit of derailing threads and demanding citations while rarely providing the same yourself is not conducive to useful discussion.

For the benefit of the OP, Shock Assault does not continue after the first Fight phase, unless the unit is subsequently charged by something else while it's still engaged in the original combat.

Let's put this baby to rest. The rules for the Fight phase begin with "Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place, the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it (see right)." So before either player can start fighting with a unit, the prior selected unit much finish fighting, aka their fight is resolved.

Shock assault applies until the fight is resolved. We don't know when a fight is resolved. A fight may last multiple fight phases, as long as there are enemy models in engagement range. As long as a unit fights the fight isn't resolved. I am not saying that this is actually true, all I'm saying is that it's not clear. The OP asks the same question, does shock assault last for the current fight phase, or until the fight is resolved ?Why was shock assault changed from the end of the turn to until fight is resolved ?

 p5freak wrote:
Shock assault applies until the fight is resolved. We don't know when a fight is resolved. A fight may last multiple fight phases, as long as there are enemy models in engagement range. As long as a unit fights the fight isn't resolved. I am not saying that this is actually true, all I'm saying is that it's not clear. The OP asks the same question, does shock assault last for the current fight phase, or until the fight is resolved ?Why was shock assault changed from the end of the turn to until fight is resolved ?

Can you provide a citation for this:

A fight may last multiple fight phases, as long as there are enemy models in engagement range

As long as a unit fights the fight isn't resolved.

A unit isn’t fighting in the charge phase or the morale phase before and after the fight phase, it might be resolving its shooting or it’s morale but it isn’t fighting.

You seem to be equating “being in engagement range” with “fighting” when there are no rules to support this position.

To answer the OP, as others have said, shock assault lasts for the phase it is triggered, and can be triggered again in subsequent phases. It does not carry over.

There is no citation. Just like there isn't one when a fight is resolved. We use common sense when there is no definition. A boxing match isn't over when the first round ends. The fight goes on as long as both boxers fight.

A boxing match isn’t turn based. And real world comparisons don’t really come into it for a rules discussion.

 p5freak wrote:
There is no citation. Just like there isn't one when a fight is resolved. We use common sense when there is no definition. A boxing match isn't over when the first round ends. The fight goes on as long as both boxers fight.

This is incorrect. The rules clearly state that when a unit fights it piles in, makes attacks, and then consolidates. They also clearly state that during the Fight phase that players alternate picking eligible units to fight. Claiming that a unit hasn’t finished fighting when you reach the step to pick another unit to fight is simply illogical.

 p5freak wrote:
A citation for what ? I didn't claim anything. I want to see a citation when a fight is resolved.

The Shock Assault rules are referencing the Fight phase.

The Fight phase P 228 highlighted box, second bullet point states "When a unit fights, it piles in, then it makes close combat attacks, then it consolidates."

When the unit fights it does exactly 3 things, then that fight is resolved. There is your citation for when a fight is resolved.

It does not say it continues after a unit consolidates, so it does not continue. For it to continue it would need to state that (Permissive ruleset and all).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A citation for what ? I didn't claim anything. I want to see a citation when a fight is resolved.

The Shock Assault rules are referencing the Fight phase.

The Fight phase P 228 highlighted box, second bullet point states "When a unit fights, it piles in, then it makes close combat attacks, then it consolidates."

When the unit fights it does exactly 3 things, then that fight is resolved. There is your citation for when a fight is resolved.

It does not say it continues after a unit consolidates, so it does not continue. For it to continue it would need to state that (Permissive ruleset and all).

I agree with this.

A "fight" is defined as piling in, attacking and consolidating. Once you have resolved all of these steps, you have resolved all the rules that are involved in a "fight". Therefore, the fight is resolved once all steps involved in a fight are resolved.

I am not disagreeing with you, the rules describe what is done when a unit fights. But that's doesn't necessarily mean that a fight is resolved once you have gone through those steps. Again, im asking, why was shock assault changed from end of turn (which was crystal clear, to until fight is resolved, which isn't crystal clear anymore ?