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Creating a simple skirmish 40k ruleset out of 9th and 8th - rules nerds wanted!  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in jp
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot





Ishikawa Prefecture, Japan

Howdy all!
So! Summer vacation is starting up for me, and I'm gonna have a lot of free time on my hands, not least because I've been ordered to stay in the prefecture because of the 'rona this summer

However! The new gf has taken an interest in the silly little space men I paint, and so I'm thinking of making a daft little system so we can try throwing some dice about. She's never really done anything tabletop or even board game-y before, so I thought I'd try to make a gentle system for the two of us to enjoy. I've got about a squads worth of 4 or so armies painted/nearly painted up, so that should give us some nice variety, and I'm gonna try and cook up a few missions, should things go well.

My idea is as follows. I'm gonna take most of the core rules from 9th - movement, shooting, combat, terrain (I only have very simple terrain, might grab a little more, but for the most part it's pretty cut and dry 100% obscuring, 50% obscuring, 0% obscuring you're out in the open sucker stuff, so I can't imagine that'll get too difficult.) There's a bonus here in that the free core rules are in Japanese, which is helpful for her.

Changes!
I don't have any psykers for now, so I'm just going to ignore the psychic phase totally for now (might add it in later if I can get one or two things painted up). Same goes for like vehicles etc. If I don't have it, it's not a worry.
I'm planning on using the 8th ed Indexes for infantry rules. When they came out, I thought they seemed pretty decent - are there any that are woefully bad? Right now I'm looking at orks, black templars, dark eldar, tyranids/genestealer cult, and maybe in future CSM/death guard, SOB and then maybe also so ragtag imperial stuff. For now I'm staying out of anything that even smells like a codex, for fear of worsening imbalance, and getting too bogged down in stratagems, wargear, whatever.
I'm cutting strategems entirely. I think they're wack, and take the game off the table too much. I might give a free re-roll once per game, but I'm not totally sure on that one, or if I want it to be something that you can also force your opponent to do, as that might be fun, but also be a little too feelsbadman.jpeg
I'm also getting rid of squad coherency rules. The size of game I'm looking at is probably around Kill Team level. McBogus! You dratted gooseberry fool! Why not just use Kill Team rules??? There's a whole new edition with a shiny new box, and everyone loves kill team! And you love orks and kreig, too! True as this might be, for a total newb, I think certain elements of kill team are a little too fancy just for right now - all the specializations etc., and would require a little too much book stuff. I want to keep the paperwork as light as possible, ideally just a few pages, something which Kill Team, as much as I love it so, isn't super great for, especially factoring the language gap etc...
Spoiler:
also good luck getting that KT box set, that's gonna be around for even less time than the beast snaggas lmao, also gonna be a few hundred dollars out of my ballpark, I'd imagine, based off of GW prices out here...


So yeah, that's the idea. What do ya think? Are there any glaring problems with this plan? I think kinda mashing these systems together should be pretty simple, as they are, in effect, the same game, just tweaked, but I'm bad at rules and stuff.
Thanks for looking!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




First of all, I recommend giving Kill Team some more consideration. Ignoring the "fancy" parts of KT like specializations and tactics is probably less of a shakeup for KT than ignoring stratagems in 40k. Plus, you mentioned wanting to get rid of squad coherency rules which is a pretty dramatic change. But also, 40k with the necessary changes to get rid of unit coherency starts to look a lot like Kill Team already. At least, first edition Kill Team.

If your goal is to use 40k as a base system and end up with a system that lets you move your dudes one by one rather than as a unit, you're basically describing Kill Team. Just do that and give yourself less work. You can still tweak it as you see fit. The first edition KT books are going to be selling for dirt cheap with a new edition around the corner.

As for indexes to avoid... If you really insist on using 8th edition index 40k as a base instead of KT, the factions you mentioned should be mostly alright. Wanting to avoid psykers makes craftworld eldar, daemons, and Thousand Sons kind of a bad idea. I'd also point out that drukhari, in normal 40k, are pretty dependent on their vehicles for mobility and survivability, so that may not fit with what you're doing. I'd also recommend avoiding factions that can either take a lot of highly effective shooting (mechanicus, maybe tau) and anything that can field a ton of bodies (certain forms of orks and tyranids).

Also, and I don't intend to patronize, but you know that wargear is like, the main way that you give your forces personality, right? You can technically play 40k (or Kill Team) with pretty much everyone being a close of everyone else, but it runs counter to the point of a lot of factions including any flavor of marine, SoB, or to a lesser extent dark eldar. So I'd encourage you not to avoid wargear options too zealously.

But again. Kill Team. What you want is Kill Team. Just don't use tactics or any of the optional expanded rules like faction bonuses, etc.
   
Made in jp
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot





Ishikawa Prefecture, Japan

Cheers for the reply! Thanks for the thought you've put into your post!
Wyldhunt wrote:
First of all, I recommend giving Kill Team some more consideration. Ignoring the "fancy" parts of KT like specializations and tactics is probably less of a shakeup for KT than ignoring stratagems in 40k.


Could I ask why you think dropping stratagems is such a big deal? I thought it was one of my smaller changes tbh lol
The last time I played 40k with any proper consideration at all was 7th, and I never really got the need for them. Re-rolling and doctrines etc. seem to just kind of slow the game down, and a handful of special rules is cool, but I'm kinda just looking for something pared-back, and mechanically quick. Maybe Warhammer 40k isn't quite the right way of thinking of it, but more an ultra-casual kill team? IDK haha, first time trying to make my own rules. I'm more than willing to accept I might just be overcomplicating things hahaha

Wyldhunt wrote:

Plus, you mentioned wanting to get rid of squad coherency rules which is a pretty dramatic change. But also, 40k with the necessary changes to get rid of unit coherency starts to look a lot like Kill Team already. At least, first edition Kill Team.

Haha, a fair point. TBH, I am gunning for something that plays a lot more like kill team. It's a game I enjoy, but aside from the reasons I've mentioned above, a hurdle is gonna be language - I can get 9th core rules in Japanese - and also that the minis I have are really more built for 40k - there's some variety between them, as I enjoy modelling that way, so that will reflect on their profiles a little, but the level of granularity and customization I built the minis to have just isn't quite Kill Team for the most part. If I drop WYSIWYG, I have a feeling that it will add an extra layer of confusion to the experience that is unnecessary at this stage. If my gf really gets into the game we might have a look

Wyldhunt wrote:

The first edition KT books are going to be selling for dirt cheap with a new edition around the corner.

Can I ask what you mean by 1st edition? Unfortunately, very little warhammer anything is cheap in Japan, and between anything oldhammer being really premium now, and also re-sellers out here capitalizing on how GW never calls anything Nth edition... I'm not hopeful haha

Again, cheers for the input. If I can get my hands on a version of KT that is in Japanese, and an equivalent version in English, just so I can double check that I'm reading stuff right, I'll deffo give them a more concerted look! Thanks
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 posermcbogus wrote:
Cheers for the reply! Thanks for the thought you've put into your post!
Wyldhunt wrote:
First of all, I recommend giving Kill Team some more consideration. Ignoring the "fancy" parts of KT like specializations and tactics is probably less of a shakeup for KT than ignoring stratagems in 40k.


Could I ask why you think dropping stratagems is such a big deal? I thought it was one of my smaller changes tbh lol

Stratagems are a big part of 40k. The right stratagem can literally double a unit's lethality. A couple stratagems used together can more than double the unit's performance. Additionally, some special abilities that used to be baked into units' datasheets or other rules have been turned into stratagems. So for a couple examples, 7th edition reavers were all about their special fly over attack where they'd damage the enemy when they moved over them. Now, that's a stratagem. In 7th, eldar speed was a defense in the form of being able to Jink vehicles or run units after shooting to hide behind corners. The closest thing they have to those options now are the Lightning Fast Reactions and Fire & Fade stratagems respectively.

Basically, GW has leaned into stratagems probably a bit too heavily. Some units' flavorful abilities or abilities that make them worthwhile have been turned into stratagems. Removing them from your game is "simple," but will impact how good many units and playstyles are.


Can I ask what you mean by 1st edition? Unfortunately, very little warhammer anything is cheap in Japan, and between anything oldhammer being really premium now, and also re-sellers out here capitalizing on how GW never calls anything Nth edition... I'm not hopeful haha

"First edition" meaning the current version of Kill Team as opposed to the new edition that is coming out soon. Technically there have been game modes called "Kill Team" in the past, so calling it "first edition" is probably confusing. My bad.

But yeah. The current Kill Team basic rules are relatively cheap (it's a thin, paperback book), and the fact that a new edition is going to be replacing it soon means that many people are likely to start selling their used copies of the rules.


Again, cheers for the input. If I can get my hands on a version of KT that is in Japanese, and an equivalent version in English, just so I can double check that I'm reading stuff right, I'll deffo give them a more concerted look! Thanks

If it helps, the basic Kill Team rules are really short and simple. "Fancy" stuff that I suspect you'd want to cut out from the basic rules include...
* The pregame "Scouting phase" (I think that's what it's called). It's neat but adds unnecessary complication and can be harmlessly ignored.
* Tactics. These will impact the game more, but the game functions perfectly well without them.
* Specialists like Comms, Sniper, etc. Fun, but add bookkeeping and can be easily ignored EXCEPT in missions that specifically interact with specialists.

If you ignore those three things, I think the core rules of Kill Team are like... ten pages. In fairly large font. It probably wouldn't be that big a task to just create your own translation.
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 posermcbogus wrote:
She's never really done anything tabletop or even board game-y before, so I thought I'd try to make a gentle system for the two of us to enjoy.

40k is not that hard, 500 pt games without Combat Doctrines, Super Doctrines and faction Stratagems is super easy, I've taught a couple of girls and lots of guys. Just make the person you are teaching read the core rules and don't help them more than you need to. Making a whole new set of rules that is changing as you play the game is something you want to introduce to veterans that are used to changing editions and very engaged in the game, not to a total newbie who might just be humouring you.

Otherwise, you can try one-page rules, you're not going to make something better this summer, it's been played and tweaked over years. You could also get a second-hand board game to get started with, you can find lists and videos online for what games are best for beginners.
   
Made in ca
Kroot Carnivore





I actually just taught my best friend to play after being on his case for about 2 decades, so I can at least tell you what worked for me.

First off, in regards to Kill Team, if the new edition is our of your price range, just play OG Kill Team. The first rule set was 200 points, no HQ, no coherency, and everything else was basically the same. It wasn't super balanced, but for fun pickup games, it didn't need to be.

For regular 40k, start simple; 500 points should get you at least an HQ and two troops for whatever armies you want to play for 9th. I started with no additional rules (chapter tactics/stratagems/ect) and just played a "Kill each other" style game, we then slowly introduced the rest one game at a time. Our second game added the faction specific rules like chapter tactics, out third added Primary objectives, our fourth Warlord Traits and Relics, our fifth secondary objectives, our sixth universal Stratagems, and out seventh all stratagems. Going through it slowly like this allowed him to adjust to the rules a bit at a time without feeling overwhelmed.

What I realized in a lot of this was that some games turned out really lopsided due to the lack of stratagems. Some armies are really balanced along the surety that you have access to them. It won't break a casual game, but some may turn out a little lopsided.

15000 4000 3500 2500 :tyranid: 2500 1000 1000
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Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






Sounds like you're doing a squad size 8e Index game which sounds great to me. I found 8e Index to be incredibly easy to learn because it was before layers and layers of rules were dumped on the game. It wasn't the most balanced time but it was certainly the simplest.

I'd recommend keeping CP, just say each of us has 3 CP and we can use those on a reroll. Can only be done once per phase. If you're keeping some form of Morale system then using a CP system will be helpful so you can include the 2CP insane bravery option.

If you want to make it Kill Team esque keep your idea of no coherency and just do alternating activations. If you want it to be more 40k-ish have each model do a whole turn by itself (move, shoot, charge) if you don't want to do use Kill Teams alternating activation system.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 21:06:28


 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I found 8e Index to be incredibly easy to learn because it was before layers and layers of rules were dumped on the game. It wasn't the most balanced time but it was certainly the simplest.

I think 8E Index was the best 40K that I had ever played for sure. Things were simple and relatively predictable. You could actually play 40K with just one book.
   
 
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