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 Boringstuff wrote:
That the chaos gods are fundamentally evil isn't really something that can be denied - it's just how the gods are in the 40k universe.

I disagree. If the Chaos gods are a reflection and manifestation of the emotions of living beings, then they are capable of anything which living beings are which are tied to the emotions which created them and currently sustain them. They are made the way they are by the misery inflicted on the galaxy by the Imperium of Man. If humanity were not actively and deliberately oppressed by the imperium, then it is possible that the resultant reduction in negative emotions would change the chaos gods to reflect that change in the emotions which feed them.

The chaos gods seek to negatively impact the universe (from the point of view of the Imperium, at least) because they are manifestations of negative emotions and actions as that is the strongest source of emotion in the Imperium. If it were reversed, and the Imperium was not an oppressive, fascistic regime constantly stamping on the face of humanity, allowing humanity to more freely experience positive emotions then it is entirely possible that would also be reflected in the actions of the chaos gods.

 Daemonhammer wrote:
How can you genuinely complain about militarism, fanaticism, xenophobia and bigotry in the Imperium? The Imperium is completely justified in having those attitudes.


A single heretic or genestealer hybrid on a planet of billions is enough to sow the seeds of what would eventually cause its destruction.

Interstellar travel works by traveling trough hell, where getting licked by a daemon once is enough to consign you to eternal torment and the only semi-reliable means of salvation is faith in the Emperor.

The forces of Chaos are entirely made up of insane psychopaths who worship evil and want nothing more than perpetual suffering for everyone.

Xenos range anywhere from devouring swarms or terminators to anarchist fungus and communists.

On top of all that, the Imperium has been in a state of perpetual warfare on a million fronts for 10 thousand years.
Harsh and brutal behavior is not only justified but even necessary for the Imperium to survive.

Gert, this is why you need to make the fact that the Imperium is bad painfully obvious.

Because there are people who look at a xenophobic, genocidal war machine and think "Yes, they need to do that to save the human race!" without any hint of irony.

They say "...the Imperium has been in a state of perpetual warfare on a million fronts for 10 thousand years." without considering the fact that the Imperium started those wars itself when it began a crusade of genocidal expansion with the aim of human supremacy over the entire galaxy and the extermination of all other intelligent life. If Nazi Germany didn't want to fight against the whole world then it shouldn't have declared war on it. It doesn't get to whine that it had to kill millions of Poles and completely flatten Warsaw as they were subversive and trying to undermine its rule when it didn't need to invade Poland in the first place.

 Daemonhammer wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Gert, this is why you need to make the fact that the Imperium is bad painfully obvious.

Because there are people who look at a xenophobic, genocidal war machine and think "Yes, they need to do that to save the human race!"

They say "...the Imperium has been in a state of perpetual warfare on a million fronts for 10 thousand years." without considering the fact that the Imperium started that war itself when it began a crusade of genocidal expansion with the aim of human supremacy over the entire galaxy.

So what do you think the Imperium should do differently? Start peace talks with Chaos? Negotiate trade with Tyranids or Dark Eldar?

It should die.

The Imperium is solely responsible for the current state of the galaxy and should pay the price. Humanity as a species can survive without it, just as it survived before the Emperor began his genocidal mission.

 Daemonhammer wrote:
Did the Imperium create the Chaos gods or even the Eye of Terror?

Did the Imperium create Tyranids, Orks, Necrons or Eldar?

No they didnt, those evils were there long before the Imperium was about.

Did the chaos gods invent space marines who would rip the galaxy in half? Nope, that was all the Imperium.

Also, by what criteria do you call Tyranids, Orks, Necrons and Eldar evil that does not also apply to the Imperium of Man?

BrianDavion wrote:

The Imperium could have peace talks with certain xenos

*sighs* name one.
I'm not arguing the IoM is the good guys here, but on the Xenos front NONE of the Xenos races are going to happily sit down with the IoM.

The Tau Empire.

You know, the species which has an entire caste of diplomats and emissaries and which views military action as a last resort after diplomatic attempts have failed.

The Imperium could easily cede control of a collection of systems in exchange for a temporary truce and potentially an alliance against more important threats. Sure, it probably won't last forever but it would close off one front for a time as the Tau set about incorporating the new systems into the Empire and allow the Imperium to focus its attention elsewhere.

Basically the 40K equivalent of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

Again, the warp is a reflection of the material plane.

The Imperium fuels the current incarnation of the warp by being oppressive and engaging in never-ending war.

Change that, and you change the nature of the warp and the entities within.

Also, Commander Brightsword committed the Koloth Gorge Massacre on Nimbosa in which his forces completely wiped out the Imperial defenders, giving no quarter.

He was recalled back to T'au to face censure for his actions.

The Imperium would pin a medal on a commander who did that to any xenos species.

 harlokin wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

All I'm saying is that the Imperium is not justified, has never been justified......

I get that, I just prefer the view that the Imperium was justified at some point, but that point has long since passed.

Sorry, but no. The Emperor was always wrong and the Imperium is founded on that.

The Imperium didn't fall from some grand dreams of utopia, it was what it became from the very start. The very foundation of the Imperium is mass murder and colonialism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A.T. wrote:

I think GW are rather deliberately skirting around this particular issue as uncontrolled gue'la psykers should be a one way ticket to a massive daemonic incursion, enslaver plague, or just your mundane alpha-plus level 'Alma Wade' style apocalypse.

Or perhaps it is the environment of the Imperium that makes psykers so dangerous. Perhaps the beings of the warp, especially those with malevolent intent, are more drawn to psychic minds which are beacons of negative emotion.

Arcanis161 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Source on that last one?

Not to hand i'm afraid. Too many paper books with no built in search function :(

Aight - so let's just not make that claim again until we have proof, yes?

https://youtu.be/BYAjyJvPFfI

Technically not the Canon ending to the game, but this also implies forced sterilization.

Even if that were the case, it is a less harsh punishment than what the imperium would impose.

Also, the Imperium has mass-sterilisation programs.

@A.T.

So, both from Imperial viewpoints and based on rumours with no concrete evidence, rumours shared with the imperium by those with an axe to grind and an incentive to paint the Tau in the worst possible light.

Arcanis161 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
So, both from Imperial viewpoints and based on rumours with no concrete evidence, coming from those with an axe to grind and an incentive to paint the Tau in the worst possible light.

I don't really have an axe to grind? I just presented what I knew.

Oh, I don't literally mean the people sharing it in this thread. I mean the people that gave that information to the Imperium in universe. They mention they got it from malcontents.