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Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






How do!

So here’s something that just plopped out of my brain.

We know that Space Marine Chapters are very, very picky about their aspirants in 40K. But, we can also reasonably infer from both the Blood Angels and the Heresy that so miraculous is geneseed, that the pickiness isn’t necessarily required.

Baalian recruits all have some sickness of the body - yet the Blood Angel Geneseed corrects that.

And during the Heresy era, tens of thousands of Terrans became Astartes before the Great Crusade began. So rather than an essential part of the process, it seems the pickiness of the modern era is more down to limited resources, and possibly trying to maximise the chances of a successful transition from Human to Astartes.

And that’s what brings me to this question. Ogryns, Ratlings, Beastmen, Squats et al are, at the end of the day, ultimately Human. Possibly barring Beastmen, they’re not mutated as such - just adapted to different environs.

There is a strong suggestion it wasn’t evolution behind it (mostly the timescales involved) but some level of genetic tinkering before, or possibly even during, the Age of Strife. But in terms of genetic bases, there’s nothing to suggest they couldn’t interbreed with baseline humans - so they seemingly haven’t spectated yet - the inability to interbreed with one’s genetic forebears being the defining point of speciation.

So…what would happen if some crazy or desperate soul tried to take say, an Ogryn and transform them in an Astartes? Or indeed any Abhuman.

Despite being well read, it’s still entirely possible I’ve missed something. I suspect Fabius Bile will at least have thought about it, if not actually tried it (he could still be a snob about who he tries to enhance).

What do you think, Dakka?

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Made in gb
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There is a difference between being crippled/rad poisoned and being an abhuman. Curing extensive radiation sickness is relatively simple compared to rearranging a being's DNA to bring them in line with "baseline" humans.
It would likely result in some very dangerous and unstable monsters.
   
Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer



Ottawa

The Marines' focus on normal humans instead of abhumans may be as much a matter of convenience as an obsession with "purity". For example, Ogryns would pose problems when it comes to fitting them into drop pods or power armor. (Not to mention that Ogryns aren't very smart, and I presume the ideal Marine is not some dumb meathead.) Also, perhaps there is a preference for subjects who will yield predictable results. Gene-seed is precious and you don't want to waste too much of it on experiments.

Fabius Bile may be more "open-minded" though. Among Chaos Marines, who sometimes sport ludicrous mutations such as tentacles or horns, an abhuman Marine would barely make anyone bat an eye.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/09 19:13:16


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It would be great to see the results but I think they have a different set of genes so probably it wouldn’t work, or you’d end up with mutant astartes like when the raven wing tried to boost their numbers after istvaan.

Also I think all of the imperium including astartes look down on abhumans as lower life forms so it would probably be heresy to even think about it
   
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U.k

 Gert wrote:
There is a difference between being crippled/rad poisoned and being an abhuman. Curing extensive radiation sickness is relatively simple compared to rearranging a being's DNA to bring them in line with "baseline" humans.
It would likely result in some very dangerous and unstable monsters.


To cure radiation poisoning you would have to literally re-arrange someone’s dna, back to how it should be. A cite radiation sickness is one thing but long term exposure has permanent effects on the dna and cells.

The science of marines is so bogus and the science of a humans equally so, so basically anything goes.
   
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mrFickle wrote:
It would be great to see the results but I think they have a different set of genes so probably it wouldn’t work, or you’d end up with mutant astartes like when the raven wing tried to boost their numbers after istvaan.

Also I think all of the imperium including astartes look down on abhumans as lower life forms so it would probably be heresy to even think about it


But how different might those genes be?

They still come from Homo Sapien stock (Homo Sapien Sapien?), and there’s seemingly nothing preventing them from interbreeding with regular, baseline humans.

So, without any clear background to say it’s not possible? What might happen.

Someone mentioned Ravenguard earlier, and their ill-fated experiences during the Heresy. There, it’s important to remember that the technology they used was deliberately tainted by Traitors. There’s nothing (again, as ever, to the best of my own knowledge) to suggest that technology was inherently flawed? Indeed if memory serves, the Astartes produced before the awfulness manifested were in every way superior to their forebears. So they could be Primaris before Primaris?

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Northumberland

Wasn't there a whole bit of lore about the Emperor working some gene magic to bring the human populace of Terra back up to normal standards instead of punk trog mutants?

I assume that was after the unification, so after the Thunder Warriors were used. Maybe then you could have some Thunder Squats but not Astartes.

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This probably falls under the category of, "Not explicitly impossible, but highly unlikely."

In practical terms, most chapters/warbands probably wouldn't accept abhuman recruits for a number of reasons ranging from cultural taboos to resource scarcity. And the Fabius types probably wouldn't be against using some mad science to make it work.

But *could* an individual create an astartes without extra gene-tinkering being involved? I don't think anything explicitly says it's impossible. It would just take a highly specific individual to try in the first place.
   
Made in gb
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UK

With the 40K setting we have to consider that many things work not just because of science, but also because of what is ultimately akin to magic - or indeed soul based magic.


We know that belief and souls are real things within the setting, thanks to the Warp. We know that Sisters of Battle appear able to get "divine interventions and protections" through belief that appears to be different to the raw power one might get with a psychic mind in the setting.


So perhaps we have to consider that the selection of humans over ab-humans and mutants and the like, might not just be a cultural and religious element. It might also not be simply resource allocation and selection of the best possible physical and genetic material.
We have to consider that there could be a spiritual element to the connection. That gene-seed might fail in an ab-human on a level that defies science.
That some part of the Emperor does indeed "Bless" his Marines to exist. Something that might cause every, or most, abhumans to be rejected. Simply because they are fundamentally not perfect humans to begin with.

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Interesting concept. I think the end result might be something like the TMNT, Bebop and Rocksteady.
   
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 Overread wrote:
With the 40K setting we have to consider that many things work not just because of science, but also because of what is ultimately akin to magic - or indeed soul based magic.


We know that belief and souls are real things within the setting, thanks to the Warp. We know that Sisters of Battle appear able to get "divine interventions and protections" through belief that appears to be different to the raw power one might get with a psychic mind in the setting.


So perhaps we have to consider that the selection of humans over ab-humans and mutants and the like, might not just be a cultural and religious element. It might also not be simply resource allocation and selection of the best possible physical and genetic material.
We have to consider that there could be a spiritual element to the connection. That gene-seed might fail in an ab-human on a level that defies science.
That some part of the Emperor does indeed "Bless" his Marines to exist. Something that might cause every, or most, abhumans to be rejected. Simply because they are fundamentally not perfect humans to begin with.

Interesting thought. Although miracles in 40k tend to be observable. If a tech priest or apothecary were observing a geneseed implant interacting with its new ogryn host, and if the power of belief was the factor preventing it from working, I imagine they'd either see that the implant has a non-zero chance of taking and is simply defying statistics, OR they would see that the ogryn's body was refusing to accept the geneseed in defiance of the laws of physics.

So if literal magic were the reason it wasn't working, I'd think that would be an observable phenomenon and would probably be an openly discussed thing.
"Oh no. We can't accept ogryn or astropaths into our ranks; the will of the Emperor would manifest to physically prevent the genseed's proteins from bonding with their flesh."

That would also imply that you could create an ogryn astartes by having someone with the pariah gene stand next to them during implantation. So I suspect the answer is a simpler and more boring, "abhuman genetics aren't compatible with geneseed."
   
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Wasn't there a half eldar/human ultramarines lieutenant or something like that?
   
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Since we don't know how different abhumans are genetically from baseline humans, hard to say. Since there's not any depictions of them reproducing with baseline humans, they're probably different enough that the Astartes process wouldn't work.
   
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Racerguy180 wrote:
Wasn't there a half eldar/human ultramarines lieutenant or something like that?

Yes, but it's oooooold lore. Like, old enough that a half-eldar not only existed but was able to become a space marine and rise in the ranks to be his chapter's chief librarian.
   
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If the plot necessitated it, I bet they could put geneseed into an ogryn and end up with some sort of even bigger space marine.

The cursed founding happened with the extra huge Sons of Antaeus and whatever other cursed chapters, Fabius Bile's new men happened, if the plot demanded it I bet you could put geneseed in an ogryn and have the result live and be some sort of supersoldier.

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If we can't have female space marines, then I sure as hell don't want abhuman space marines. The last thing this setting needs is the implication that women are less 'human' than ogres and hobbits are.

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Bamberg / Erlangen

I would say it depends on the abhuman in question.

Ratlings, Ogryns and Beastmen? Too divergent, physiology wise.

Though, I can totally see somebody trying to create an Astartes chapter out of Afriel strain humans. It will probably end like a second Lamenter chapter.

 Duskweaver wrote:
If we can't have female space marines, then I sure as hell don't want abhuman space marines. The last thing this setting needs is the implication that women are less 'human' than ogres and hobbits are.

I presume abhuman Space Marines would still be made out of male abhumans. That is not implying anything apart that females are less male than males

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/10 07:35:40


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Here’s another interesting thought….

Let’s say some nutter does take an Abhuman strain and attempt the process.

Given Geneseed can cure Baalian recruits (though whether this is a unique trait of Blood Angel Geneseed isn’t at all clear), could it overwrite whatever genetic quirk causes an Abhuman to diverge?

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The limitation of Astartes to only male humans is the main limit to the growth of 40K...since SM are the main point of attraction to 40K if every individual in the 40K Galaxy could became an Astartes... A lot of new costumers and endless posibilities to expand the miniature range will emerge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/10 08:42:35


 
   
Made in gb
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Can we avoid discussion on female Astartes in this thread?

I’ve nothing against the topic itself, but I don’t want this to be derailed by it.

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Bamberg / Erlangen

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Here’s another interesting thought….

Let’s say some nutter does take an Abhuman strain and attempt the process.

Given Geneseed can cure Baalian recruits (though whether this is a unique trait of Blood Angel Geneseed isn’t at all clear), could it overwrite whatever genetic quirk causes an Abhuman to diverge?

This might very well be some inherent trait of the used Geneseed. I guess Mortarion's and Fulgrim's DNA would be able to do something similar, but I'm not seeing it for others.

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God dammit now I'm imagining a beautiful Ogryn. Thanks Grotsnik.
   
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Bamberg / Erlangen

So a Shrek Marine? :p

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Here’s another interesting thought….

Let’s say some nutter does take an Abhuman strain and attempt the process.

Given Geneseed can cure Baalian recruits (though whether this is a unique trait of Blood Angel Geneseed isn’t at all clear), could it overwrite whatever genetic quirk causes an Abhuman to diverge?


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How much DNA rearranging happens when someone is made into a marine? From what I remember, the process is mostly pumping special hormones in the kids and implanting new organs, which shouldn't change the host's genetic code. If we're following real science, anyway... Compatibility with that treatment is the main issue when picking new candidates but it's not clear what makes it possible or not so it's hard to tell how it would go with abhumans who might be 99% human from a genetic point of view.

Personally, I'd love to see full-on beastmen getting turned into marines, cause that's how you get actual sci-fi minotaurs!
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




I hope that Abhuman Astartes look the same as FSM...thats it exactly the same as regular male plane human marines!!!

On the other hand Greenskin Astartes and Anime (Tau) Astartes would really give a true variety to the currently stagnant SM line... hope Corporate Workshop is hearing.
   
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Northumberland

In terms of modelling the army though, I think space marines with some beastman heads would look pretty awesome. Maybe they couldn't be abhuman astartes but considering some of the whackier chapters out there (looking at the dudes with bone growths) what's the difference? All this Cawl meddling seems like the perfect opportunity for some weird marine chapters.

And anyway are astartes even 'human'?

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Technically no but "human" is such a broad term and some Chapters view themselves as part of humanity while others view themselves as separate from humanity.
   
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Abhumans sit on test precarious place of being not human enough to be human and close enough to tolerated as nearly human. Given how hard it is to get geneseed to work on a perfectly healthy human in the 41sf Millennium, I’m thinking their just isn’t much chance of it working on something so far from human baseline as an abhuman.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/11 23:20:31


 
   
 
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