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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




What there is going to be is a lot more division in the roles of units. If you want a unit to just sit on an objective and score points, there's a reason to take more than 5 models. But by doing so, you cripple the ability of the squad to actually fight effectively offensively.

Unless the consolidate and pile-in rules are changed to create more flexibility in how you can move, MSU 5-man squads are going to become the default for anything you want to use offensively. The limitations on how you can move 6+ man squads just make them a total mess to use offensively.

You will probably still see some 10-man+ troops squads that are designed to just sit on an objective all game and score points off it. Stuff like wracks that are very points-efficient in terms of their durability.

A 5-turn game makes gunlines less powerful because they have less time to table the other army. If you take points-efficient units and plop them on objectives it doesn't really matter if your opponent can shoot them off, the clock is ticking down and you're scoring and he isn't and if you can significantly outscore him on T2 and T3 you win the game even if he tables you on T4.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/30 20:54:32


 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Ice_can wrote:
@the_scotsman

Gw previewed a rule that stated you scored your pointa for holding the objectives at the start of your command phase, ie the start of your turn, so between you moving onto the objective in your movement phase and the start of your next command phase the enemy has a complete turn.

GW have now shown a conpletely different rule for actions that are scores at the end of your turn so which is correct? One the other or Both, I really wish i didn't believe it but I suspect GW have both in the mission pack and it will depend game to game how they arw scored.


haha, if all objectives are scored after a full round of holding them then this'll just be Tablehammer. There does not exist a unit in 40k that can stand up to the ludicrous firepower gunlines currently put out. If you bring 90 ork boyz, maybe, MAYBE a model from one of them survives so that you can Endless Green Tide it back onto the table and have 30 boyz top of turn 1.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General






Florence, KY

the_scotsman wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
@the_scotsman

Gw previewed a rule that stated you scored your pointa for holding the objectives at the start of your command phase, ie the start of your turn, so between you moving onto the objective in your movement phase and the start of your next command phase the enemy has a complete turn.

GW have now shown a conpletely different rule for actions that are scores at the end of your turn so which is correct? One the other or Both, I really wish i didn't believe it but I suspect GW have both in the mission pack and it will depend game to game how they arw scored.


haha, if all objectives are scored after a full round of holding them then this'll just be Tablehammer. There does not exist a unit in 40k that can stand up to the ludicrous firepower gunlines currently put out. If you bring 90 ork boyz, maybe, MAYBE a model from one of them survives so that you can Endless Green Tide it back onto the table and have 30 boyz top of turn 1.

I believe 'Raise The Banners High' is the rule in question...

Spoiler:

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper




Austria

But Raise the Banner does not need my unit to be there to get the Victory Point

At the end of my turn, the banner is raised, as long as no enemy unit comes near the objective and takes control, I get the VP.

If my units are all destroyed the next enemy turn does not matter as long as he does not move close enough to take the objective

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah, the banner secondary actually encourages MSU spam, because a unit of any size can do it, it's automatically completed at the end of your turn, and it stops the unit from doing anything else. So you'd rather have two MSU of 5 than one of 10, because that way one can do the action while the other functions.

Also, RAW, you can even raise the banner if your opponent controls the objective, and you'll still get 1VP from it - though the banner will immediately be destroyed at the start of your opponent's turn, you still get one tick of it.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah definable looks like secondary missions are scored in your tunn regardless but primary missions are scored in your comand phase ie after the enemy's turn(atleats in Combat Patrol missions), ouch. Though it does mean picking the correct secondary missions is going to be very important.
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

And then there is the Siphon Power action that takes until your next Command Phase.

Spoiler:


How long an action takes is decided by the Action you take. And when you score Victory Points is determined by the Objective.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




That Siphon Power secondary looks like a trap if I've ever seen one, lol. With a 5 turn game you only get 4 chances to score, and you'd need to do it on 2 objectives every turn plus on 3 objectives one turn, just to max it, and all they need to do to stop you is get one of their units within range of one of those objectives for one of those turns and you're not maxing any more because you can't start it on the next turn (unless you can somehow kill that unit in your movement phase).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/30 21:52:39


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




yukishiro1 wrote:
That Siphon Power secondary looks like a trap if I've ever seen one, lol. With a 5 turn game you only get 4 chances to score, and you'd need to do it on 2 objectives every turn plus on 3 objectives one turn, all game just to max it, and all they need to do to stop you is get one of their units within range of one of those objectives for one of those turns and you're not maxing any more because you can't start it on the next turn (unless you can somehow kill that unit in your movement phase).

It's less of a trap than the banners one as you can not score round 1 so you only get round 2, 3, 4 & 5 to score with a bonus 1 for having it at end of the game, you'll need to control 3 objectives for 5 rounds to max it out.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




For the banner one you don't need to control the objectives and your unit doesn't need to survive, you just need to have a unit close enough to raise it on your turn and you get a point. But yeah, it's also a trap.

Unless I guess every single secondary is designed to be basically impossible to max.

edit: Oops no I misread it, you can't start it if there's any enemy units within range of the objective. So yeah, it's also a huge trap.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/30 21:57:33


 
   
Made in us
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan




On the Internet

yukishiro1 wrote:
That Siphon Power secondary looks like a trap if I've ever seen one, lol. With a 5 turn game you only get 4 chances to score, and you'd need to do it on 2 objectives every turn plus on 3 objectives one turn, just to max it, and all they need to do to stop you is get one of their units within range of one of those objectives for one of those turns and you're not maxing any more because you can't start it on the next turn (unless you can somehow kill that unit in your movement phase).

It's for a 500 point game, so probably more achievable than expected.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 ClockworkZion wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
That Siphon Power secondary looks like a trap if I've ever seen one, lol. With a 5 turn game you only get 4 chances to score, and you'd need to do it on 2 objectives every turn plus on 3 objectives one turn, just to max it, and all they need to do to stop you is get one of their units within range of one of those objectives for one of those turns and you're not maxing any more because you can't start it on the next turn (unless you can somehow kill that unit in your movement phase).

It's for a 500 point game, so probably more achievable than expected.

You really thing in a 500 point game you'll have 2 units able to do nothing but score secondary missions VP with for the entire game?
   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






Ice_can wrote:
Welcome to 9th edition
Only units containing 5 models or less may apply.
But just because blast weapons will pay addition points for rules that will never trigger as they dont kick in below 6 models.

This is really feeling like it is going to be armies of 5 model units and 1 model units. Anything else is going to need to be rediculous to be worth the downsides.


That’s what I’ve been laughing at too. Blast weapons are a trap. If you take them on your vehicle, you make yourself weaker. You can’t shoot in melee anymore. But you have to pay extra points so that you can’t shoot in melee anymore. You’ll get your extra attacks against some unit once in a blue moon, but against some non-competitive horde list you probably would’ve won anyway, even without your three or four extra hits. You didn’t need those hits in 8th, so you sure as heck won’t need in 9th, because all your stuff is deadlier already. Absolutely nobody in their right mind will choose blast weapons, and pay for them, unless they have no options (poor Night Spinners).

Clearly GW had some funny vision how the game would play and meta settle, but players will just say no, I’ll play with my 13 tanks or 5 man squads of Marines.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/30 22:15:27


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




No, that's the 2000 point mission, not the 500 point mission. If it was the 500 point mission it would be even harder, because you definitely aren't going to have two units that can sit around all game doing nothing.
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob





UK

Already thinking my next army

red corsairs 12cp + 1 for huron +3 for free batallion so 16
batallion
huron, sorcerer
3x 5 marine units
3x 5 havocs

batallion (is free because they get +3 cp)
2x sorcerer/dark apostle
3x 5 marine units
3x obilt units

batallion (is free because they get +3 cp)
2x sorcerer/dark apostle
3x 5 marines
3x something else


after writing that i'v realised its not very good



 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 Latro_ wrote:
Already thinking my next army

red corsairs 12cp + 1 for huron +3 for free batallion so 16
batallion
huron, sorcerer
3x 5 marine units
3x 5 havocs

batallion (is free because they get +3 cp)
2x sorcerer/dark apostle
3x 5 marine units
3x obilt units

batallion (is free because they get +3 cp)
2x sorcerer/dark apostle
3x 5 marines
3x something else


after writing that i'v realised its not very good



Should've gone with an al battalion....

Also pts....

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's not clear that that tactic will carry over. There are no command point benefits from taking detachments anymore - instead, there is a cost - so it's not clear that you can increase something that doesn't exist any more.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





yukishiro1 wrote:
It's not clear that that tactic will carry over. There are no command point benefits from taking detachments anymore - instead, there is a cost - so it's not clear that you can increase something that doesn't exist any more.


But it is very likely indeed , due to the fact that vigilus carries over which included rc which habe advance and Charge aswell as a Bonus to cp+ Double Bonus for cp through csm as trait.

This is why some people talk about "baggage carried over"

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/06/30 22:47:04


   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob





UK

Was thinking i wonder if the tadpole style formation will be a thing to keep the conga buffs to a char. You can still pretty much do it for big units witg upto a 19" line without much fear of coherency checks.

Just remove models from the bulk of the unit, when it gets down to the line you are pretty much at 5 models so they wont die

[Thumb - Capture.PNG]


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




RAW it doesn't, because the mechanic it modifiers - "Command Benefits" - no longer exists in 9th.

I wouldn't be surprised if they change the wording via an errata to allow it to carry over, but RAW it doesn't.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It's not clear that that tactic will carry over. There are no command point benefits from taking detachments anymore - instead, there is a cost - so it's not clear that you can increase something that doesn't exist any more.


But it is very likely indeed , due to the fact that vigilus carries over which included rc which habe advance and Charge aswell as a Bonus to cp+ Double Bonus for cp through csm as trait.

This is why some people talk about "baggage carried over"

Remember Red Corsairs just get an extra CP for existing so you really don't need the Chaos Marines there.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It's not clear that that tactic will carry over. There are no command point benefits from taking detachments anymore - instead, there is a cost - so it's not clear that you can increase something that doesn't exist any more.


But it is very likely indeed , due to the fact that vigilus carries over which included rc which habe advance and Charge aswell as a Bonus to cp+ Double Bonus for cp through csm as trait.

This is why some people talk about "baggage carried over"

Remember Red Corsairs just get an extra CP for existing so you really don't need the Chaos Marines there.


Meh am willing to bet that csm will rise to 13-14 PPM at which point yes i'd rather pay -5 --10 pts more then cultists and not get whacked by morale or coherency or blast.....
Also Slots for weaponry ...

   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






yukishiro1 wrote:
RAW it doesn't, because the mechanic it modifiers - "Command Benefits" - no longer exists in 9th.

I wouldn't be surprised if they change the wording via an errata to allow it to carry over, but RAW it doesn't.
Errr... what?

The Red Corsairs trait works perfectly fine in 9th edition.
Imperium Nihilus - Vigilus Ablaze, Page 197 wrote:[...] In addition, if a Detachment contains three or more units with this trait, that Detachment’s Command Benefits are increased by 1 Command Point. That Detachment’s Command Benefits are increased by 3 Command Points instead if it contains three or more units of CHAOS SPACE MARINES with this trait.
So a Red Corsairs Battalion now has the Command Benefit of "+4 Command points if your WARLORD is part of this Detachment.", or if you have three or more units of CHAOS SPACE MARINES with the trait, "+6 Command points if your WARLORD is part of this Detachment."

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/06/30 23:00:31


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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 BaconCatBug wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
RAW it doesn't, because the mechanic it modifiers - "Command Benefits" - no longer exists in 9th.

I wouldn't be surprised if they change the wording via an errata to allow it to carry over, but RAW it doesn't.
Errr... what?

The Red Corsairs trait works perfectly fine in 9th edition.
Imperium Nihilus - Vigilus Ablaze, Page 197 wrote:[...] In addition, if a Detachment contains three or more units with this trait, that Detachment’s Command Benefits are increased by 1 Command Point. That Detachment’s Command Benefits are increased by 3 Command Points instead if it contains three or more units of CHAOS SPACE MARINES with this trait.
So a Red Corsairs Battalion now has the Command Benefit of "+4 Command points if your WARLORD is part of this Detachment.", or if you have three or more units of CHAOS SPACE MARINES with the trait, "+6 Command points if your WARLORD is part of this Detachment."

Doesnt that RAW mean that they can onky ckaim the extra CP on the warlords detachment though?
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Ice_can wrote:
Doesnt that RAW mean that they can onky ckaim the extra CP on the warlords detachment though?
Correct.
What the rule does is different, but it doesn't mean "RAW it doesn't work". Much like certain other rules regarding certain weapon types that don't technically do anything even though from a technical standpoint they work just fine, they just don't do what you want them to do, just because a rule doesn't do what it is "meant" to, or does what you "want" it to, doesn't mean the "RAW doesn't work".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/30 23:12:26


Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294 +++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It bothers me that the rule for Eradicators is "Total Obliteration" rather than "Total Eradication".

Wait until you see the new rule for Obliterators.

   
Made in jp
Death-Dealing Devastator




Stuck in the snow.

 Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It bothers me that the rule for Eradicators is "Total Obliteration" rather than "Total Eradication".

Wait until you see the new rule for Obliterators.


Let me guess "Total Annihilation" right?

Now where did I put those Annihilators...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/30 23:17:06


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 BaconCatBug wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Doesnt that RAW mean that they can onky ckaim the extra CP on the warlords detachment though?
Correct.
What the rule does is different, but it doesn't mean "RAW it doesn't work". Much like certain other rules regarding certain weapon types that don't technically do anything even though from a technical standpoint they work just fine, they just don't do what you want them to do, just because a rule doesn't do what it is "meant" to, or does what you "want" it to, doesn't mean the "RAW doesn't work".

Actually the RAW interpretation feels alot more balanced than them being able to have 3 free battalions.
   
Made in us
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan




On the Internet

Ice_can wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
That Siphon Power secondary looks like a trap if I've ever seen one, lol. With a 5 turn game you only get 4 chances to score, and you'd need to do it on 2 objectives every turn plus on 3 objectives one turn, just to max it, and all they need to do to stop you is get one of their units within range of one of those objectives for one of those turns and you're not maxing any more because you can't start it on the next turn (unless you can somehow kill that unit in your movement phase).

It's for a 500 point game, so probably more achievable than expected.

You really thing in a 500 point game you'll have 2 units able to do nothing but score secondary missions VP with for the entire game?

I'm sure there are some armies that could, but generally no.
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob





UK

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Doesnt that RAW mean that they can onky ckaim the extra CP on the warlords detachment though?
Correct.
What the rule does is different, but it doesn't mean "RAW it doesn't work". Much like certain other rules regarding certain weapon types that don't technically do anything even though from a technical standpoint they work just fine, they just don't do what you want them to do, just because a rule doesn't do what it is "meant" to, or does what you "want" it to, doesn't mean the "RAW doesn't work".


Dont see why it does not apply to all of them. The detachment has a title 'Command benifits'
the rule is:

'that Detachment’s Command Benefits are increased by 1 Command Point. That Detachment’s Command Benefits are increased by 3 CommandPoints instead if it contains three or more units of CHAOS SPACE MARINES with this trait.'

0 + 3 = 3


 
   
 
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