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A half-joking thread here. After spending a bit of time playing Space Hulk recently, why do marines bother to wear Terminator armour when boarding Space Hulks?
- As represented in the rules, the vast majority of the time a 'Stealer gets into melee with a marine, the marine is toast. If the 'Stealers claws 'cut through adamantium and ceramite like tissue paper' (this is repeated in the lore at least once every paragraph) what benefit is there to having super thick armour? May as well be just in a pair of boxer shorts.
- Terminator armour vastly restrict movement and slows the Marine down significantly. This compounds lack of maneuverability against an agile foe; even if not in just underwear, at least wear armour that allows you step sideways?
- Terminator armour is so valued and irreplaceable, why risk it in an environment where it apparently has seemingly no value? It's basically the equivalent of asking the marines to walk around with Faberge eggs. They can't continue with the Space Hulk boarding because they then run out of funding.

I may have identified a central flaw in the concept of Space Hulk assaults. What are people's thoughts?

Because they don't always know what they'll be facing, and Terminator armour should give them the best chance of survival.

(And there's at least one canon example of a marine stripping off his armour to get into a tight duct - in Death of Integrity)

Do the space hulks have a breathable atmosphere? I genuinely don't know, I'm curious.

 krijthebold wrote:
Do the space hulks have a breathable atmosphere? I genuinely don't know, I'm curious.

Most don't - the only ones that generally do are those that have Orks on-board somewhere (as mentioned in the Cain novels).

Space Hulks can be full of anything and nothing. They are basically just big hulking ships lost in space.

They might be a ghost ship with nothing on them; a ship that was thrown out of the Warp and has demons, ghosts, the possessed, the warped and more; they might have genestealers; survivors; cults of warring bands of survivors who have lost all sense of social order having been lost for generations.


Basically they could be anything on a Space Hulk. The game features Marines and Genestealers as the theme and stealers are one of the most dangerous things that could be encountered.

I fully expect if Space Hulk were a 2020 era game chances are they'd have steadily fleshed them out with more than just stealers.

Sometimes, depends on the author. But honestly, good question. Why waste what is essentially the most sacred relic in a SM arsenal that makes you slower, and less able to react with speed? I'd wager it has to do with the ability to use the added strength of the Terminator suit, but even then, what might they encounter that can't be killed by just a normal SM in regular battle armor? Daemons, Nids, and orks all die the same, and a regular marine can still wield storm shields, thunder hammers, lightning claws, power swords, and what not just fine. The only difference I can see is that a Terminator can wield a AC or a PC in a single hand, leaving the other open for a power fist.

beast_gts wrote:

 krijthebold wrote:
Do the space hulks have a breathable atmosphere? I genuinely don't know, I'm curious.

Most don't - the only ones that generally do are those that have Orks on-board somewhere (as mentioned in the Cain novels).

So probably thermal underwear (in case the marines get chilly) and a way to breathe might be needed, at least.

 Pacific wrote:
- Terminator armour is so valued and irreplaceable, why risk it in an environment where it apparently has seemingly no value?

Terminator armour includes a teleport homer so the suit can be recovered even if the occupant is dead or otherwise incapacitated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
a regular marine can still wield storm shields, thunder hammers, lightning claws, power swords, and what not just fine.

They couldn't when the original Space Hulk was released.

As others have said, you never really know what you’re gonna get onboard a Space Hulk.

Whereas a Genestealer can carve apart Terminator Armour, most other nasties would struggle.

Though I for one would be well up for expanded Space Hulk. Imagine the good guy being Orks having to muster their forces to see off boarding Space Marines.

One factor that hasn't really been brought up yet is how much greater environmental protection Terminator armour provides compared to standard astartes armour, especially in regards to plasma leaks and highly radiated areas (since that's what Terminator armour was originally developed to protect from).

If you're boarding a derelict ship, chances are high that you will run into a plasma leak or high amounts of radiation from damage and collapse of the vessel's engine core - either because it already existed on the ship or because something has gone very wrong while you're on it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Though I for one would be well up for expanded Space Hulk. Imagine the good guy being Orks having to muster their forces to see off boarding Space Marines.

Me too! I could have sworn there was Ork rules already, but having a quick look I can only see Traitors, Eldar & Guard.

I'd love a space hulk where both players have no idea what's on the hulk itself. So you have to roll for blips on the radar and then discover if its orks or tyranids or something else.

 Overread wrote:
I'd love a space hulk where both players have no idea what's on the hulk itself. So you have to roll for blips on the radar and then discover if its orks or tyranids or something else.

That’s….that’s Space Crusade, isn’t it

 Overread wrote:
I'd love a space hulk where both players have no idea what's on the hulk itself. So you have to roll for blips on the radar and then discover if its orks or tyranids or something else.

I've done this in Necormunda campaigns - gangs move into a new area with no idea what to expect. Starving outlanders, plague zombies, ambul or worse...?

Seems impractical on the table. (If nothing else, even if you're really good building blinds, you'll learn specific player's collection(s) over time)

Would be a fun computer game, though. With a lot of potential for different game modes.

Space hulk with Orks is called Space Marine. They also have half the game basically with Chaos as well.

There is no = for the other xenos, like Tau or Eldar, they generally avoid the Space Hulks though.

I really hated the design of the SpaceHulk games, even the new ones. When I am in a walking tank, I don't like feeling like a glass cannon. A strong fart can knock my medic into the red, and my HW guy needs a heal if you look at him wrong.

Space Marine had the feeling best. You were vulnerable, but not like CoD where a single bullet can kill you. You WERE the cover in that game. If you are going to be this slow plodding tank thing, at least make it feel like you aren't just an asthmatic 90 year old in a bath towel.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There is no = for the other xenos, like Tau or Eldar, they generally avoid the Space Hulks though.

It's mentioned a few times that Tau do board Space Hulks - it's one of the sub-plots of The Greater Evil, for example.

Terminator armour lets you strap much bigger guns to your marine which can mulch hordes of Genestealers before they get within rending distance. Genestealers don't have guns, and they also don't hold up particularly well to even massed bolter fire. They tend to die in droves before any can get close.

A Space marine can wield a Storm Bolter just as fast if not faster than a Terminator. Hell, a human can wield a Storm Bolter. If you are talking about Assault Cannons, regular Astartes can wield those as well.

Fezz that's flat out not true. Terminator Armour includes stabilisers and autoloaders to make the use of Stormbolters and Assaultcannons easier. Normal Astartes cannot wield 40k Assault Cannons, the Heresy version is different.

@Gert There are numerous instances of Captains wielding Storm bolters with unwavering accuracy. I don't know where else to reinforce the argument that Astartes can wield SBs with no drop in accuracy, other than non-fluff sources, ie, the SB can be taken by certain astartes with no drop in BS. DW uses them as do Ancients, Veterans, and several other Non-terminator variants.
You are correct about the AC. For some reason I thought Devestators could take them, but they cant, only terminators or vehicles can.

Can you point to fluff (since we are in Background) where a standard space marine cannot use a Storm Bolter or is incapable?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
@Gert There are numerous instances of Captains wielding Storm bolters with unwavering accuracy. I don't know where else to reinforce the argument that Astartes can wield SBs with no drop in accuracy, other than non-fluff sources, ie, the SB can be taken by certain astartes with no drop in BS. DW uses them as do Ancients, Veterans, and several other Non-terminator variants.

Stormbolter's have higher recoil than a regular Bolter and are heavier to boot. It's why they are the primary weapon of Terminators and used as pintle-mounted weapons as the weight and recoil can be compensated by stabilisers and greater strength. I'm interested in knowing which sources have SM Captains using Stormbolters with "unwavering accuracy" seeing as Space Marine accurately gives the weapon the worst recoil in the game. Just a quick reminder though, 40k the Game is not 40k the Background and GW takes a lot of liberty with what they present in the Background compared to what happens in the Game.

Can you point to fluff (since we are in Background) where a standard space marine cannot use a Storm Bolter or is incapable?

The fact they aren't the standard weapon of a Marine and the above points about it being heavier and having bad recoil.

Also, nobody said a Power Armoured Astartes cannot wield a Storm Bolter.

But the fact remains Storm Bolters were specifically designed/developed to provide Terminators with maximum firepower. They weren’t designed/developed for general issue.

It’s the difference between a highly specialised weapon in the real being best off in the hands of a specialist (I dunno, like, a high end sniper rifle with clever slights and self adjusting windage gubbins), and the same weapon in the hands of me, a complete tosspot.

Can I fire the gun? Sure. Long as I know the basics of how to prime it and where the trigger is. But, in the hands of its intended platform? Far, far better results.

There are some old WD rules for using standard power armoured marines in Space Hulk. In the very issue that introduced me to 40k, btw (so yeah, pretty old ).

For an "in lore" comparison of power armoured marines operating in a space hulk compared to some in terminator armour, I'd recommend the short stories Prometheus Requiem by Nick Kyme, and The Core by Aaron Dembski-Bowden. They cover the stories of power armoured Night Lords and terminator armoured Salamanders both boarding a space hulk at roughly the same time, initially unbeknownst to each other (they do find each other eventually), tied together in a kind of "Pulp Fiction" intertwining style. Both good reads IMHO.

Wait what? Those Salmanders got a story? Damn that's pretty neet.

 Gert wrote:
Wait what? Those Salmanders got a story? Damn that's pretty neet.

I take it you mean the Salamanders featured in The Core? Obviously someone who's read as much 40k as you knows there's lots of stories with other Salamanders in them. Yes, and it fills in some of the "gaps" in The Core. If you liked The Core I'd recommend checking it out.

1: Terminator armor offers better protection for environmental hazards, potential opposition, and teleportation.

2: Terminators carry Powerfists, but are also the only armor capable of carrying Chainfists. Chainfists are purpose-built to carve through armored bulkheads.

3: Terminator armor has an excellent power source, and may be used to power onboard subsystems. There is an old picture of a Terminator "plugged in" via a thick power cord, possibly powering a bridge or lift or something. The "socket" is that thing below the Terminators rear vents, just above the hips.

4: Terminator armor may be able to carry more stuff, like ammunition or supplies, etc.

Edit:
5: Also for Terminator armor "extensive communications gear and sensory apparatus is fitted as standard. . ." Potentially very valuable stuff for navigating the hazards inherent to Space Hulks. (2nd Ed Wargear book)

Presumably if the 'stealers are after their jeans, then hot pants would be the best chance of survival.

 Pacific wrote:
A half-joking thread here. After spending a bit of time playing Space Hulk recently, why do marines bother to wear Terminator armour when boarding Space Hulks?
- As represented in the rules, the vast majority of the time a 'Stealer gets into melee with a marine, the marine is toast. If the 'Stealers claws 'cut through adamantium and ceramite like tissue paper' (this is repeated in the lore at least once every paragraph) what benefit is there to having super thick armour? May as well be just in a pair of boxer shorts.
- Terminator armour vastly restrict movement and slows the Marine down significantly. This compounds lack of maneuverability against an agile foe; even if not in just underwear, at least wear armour that allows you step sideways?
- Terminator armour is so valued and irreplaceable, why risk it in an environment where it apparently has seemingly no value? It's basically the equivalent of asking the marines to walk around with Faberge eggs. They can't continue with the Space Hulk boarding because they then run out of funding.

I may have identified a central flaw in the concept of Space Hulk assaults. What are people's thoughts?

If its the rules that are the problem then it's easy to see a sliding scale. Ie against power armour stealers roll 2x the attack dice, while anything else is hit with triple.

It's all relative

Olthannon wrote:Presumably if the 'stealers are after their jeans, then hot pants would be the best chance of survival.

Those were my thoughts too!

Gadzilla666 wrote: There are some old WD rules for using standard power armoured marines in Space Hulk. In the very issue that introduced me to 40k, btw (so yeah, pretty old ).

For an "in lore" comparison of power armoured marines operating in a space hulk compared to some in terminator armour, I'd recommend the short stories Prometheus Requiem by Nick Kyme, and The Core by Aaron Dembski-Bowden. They cover the stories of power armoured Night Lords and terminator armoured Salamanders both boarding a space hulk at roughly the same time, initially unbeknownst to each other (they do find each other eventually), tied together in a kind of "Pulp Fiction" intertwining style. Both good reads IMHO.

That sounds excellent - thanks I will check it out!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krijthebold wrote:
Do the space hulks have a breathable atmosphere? I genuinely don't know, I'm curious.

The Space Hulk original books state that they have no atmosphere, but the 'Stealers are able to survive in vacuum. I have read other books though where there have been other denizens on board (Orks, Chaos renegades etc.) which I assume must have sealed compartments on board the hulk.

I guess this would actually be a good reason not to wear just pants!