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There were a large number of players that had burned themselves out on the game and the faults in MK3 gave them an opportunity to get off the treadmill. A lot of them have had a salt the earth mentality ever since, apparently spending way more time than I do on the game's social media trying to be as negative as possible.

In any case, the main issue with the game as it stands is a lack of new player content. There aren't really any good starters or other products that are friendly for stores to stock. What HAS vastly improved is the community interest in more varied game types and unofficial formats like Brawl/Clashmachine have greatly improved the communities interest in playing at scales that are approachable for new players. It's truly a great game and it seems to have finally shaken a lot of its toxic fanbase to get back to a point where all its endless variety can be fun again.

I know a lot of people that were on the "my ex is looking good" train at the time. A lot of the crowd that once trashed 40K and sang WM's praises flipped their tune with 8th. That's not to say there weren't stumbles, but I definitely saw people full on swan diving on toothpicks to feel suitably hurt to bow out.

FWIW, for whatever issues the game had, I think the real damage came from how they managed the market and focused on appeasing their hardcore playerbase. Online retailers had pretty heavily devalued their product to the point where it was essentially impossible for physical retail to carry their out of control sea of SKUs. Correcting that at the same time they were dropping the miserable, but affordable PVC for expensive resin meant some pretty huge sticker shock.

To be honest though, I'm not even sure if that's the real issue. So much of PP's company identity was built on this "no squatting" mindset they were always going to hit a brick wall when distribution flipped to a "new hotness"/planned obsolescence model. Getting something past launch week is basically impossible these days regardless of what game you're talking about and Warmachine really isn't capable of keeping up with that kind of market. It's advantage is the near endless variety and while a lot of themes have tried to shift to an "army of the month" style in keeping with where GW finds its success; its not at all what makes the game special or fun. I think a big part of the latest update has been a course correction away from that, which has really helped the game find its feet again, but there's still a huge question of just how to sell the physical product.

nobody wrote:

Monsterpocalypse and Warcaster both hold some interest for me, but I can honestly say I've never seen anybody play them in person, and discussion on either tends to be exceptionally rare.

Both are pretty heavily centered around Discord I've noticed. A lot of the WMH community migrated there in general, particularly now that a lot of the game is played on Wartable for obvious reasons. Not my favorite platform, but I suppose its better than Facebook. Happy to chat up either though.

FWIW, MonPoc is probably my favorite system of all time. I think most people mentally have it in hibernation again until the Kickstarter delivers but its really just an exceptional game and the new edition has put the emphasis back on the monsters that was my one big disappointment with the orgiinal.

Warcaster I think is a system with a ton of potential. The core mechanics are really dynamic and fun and flip the standard ideas of attrition based gameplay on their head. The big downside currently is there's just not a lot of variety to be had. Most factions only have enough to fill out a skirmish army (which, honestly I think is a better point size than the full game anyway) so it doesn't take very long to figure out what's good. The upcoming kickstarter looks to breathe a bunch of new life into the game, but I think it'll probably take one more wave of releases to where it feels like there's some real variety in each army. It's a very solid game to have a little force for the Skirmish level. I think that might always be where it shines as kind of the anti-Warmachine. Small table with a lot of terrain, quick back and forth gameplay with model death being far less important than where you put them to die. I think its totally worth a try, particularly with the new wave of releases coming in the next few months.

I'm not sure how much it is about making it their big hitter or just something to lean on to give WMH a break. I think with all of the issues they've had adapting to the new world of distribution a lot of it is just about experimenting with different SKU packages to find something that works.

Guys, just stop having wrongfun and we can all get back to having rightfun again.

FWIW, Warcaster and Infinity are wildly different games. Probably the thing they have most in common is that neither game really plays like anything else on the market. There's definitely some aesthetic crossover, but even that kind of faded seeing both models in person.

As for Warcaster releasing models too fast, I think it depends a bit on what you're playing. The game is in kind of a weird place right now where its skirmish level is probably more worth your time and the game has just enough to fill that up but not quite enough to make it feel like build choices matter. There's actually a slightly expanded game size that still plays skirmish that I think does a better job by giving you a little more room for niche picks that the game actually supports very well since there's no real value in spamming things.

RiotQuest is remarkably better in practice than it looks on paper, but I cannot stand the spawn mechanics. The maps are just too big and models regularly get spawned in the middle of nowhere with no real ability to contribute to the game.

I'd say its frustrating, but the game is too random to really be frustrated by any of it. It's got far more depth than you'd expect and some really solid ideas behind it, but I think to really shine it needs significantly more work on its map layouts.

Warcaster is all around very strong. I think there's some balance concerns that likely need to be worked out, particularly regarding loadout options on Warjacks, but its a really strong system that mostly lacks options. My group got into it last summer and really liked it, but also found that after a couple months we'd kind of experienced what there was to see out of the current range. The Thousand Worlds release wave that should be out very soon was announced shortly after and everyone kind of felt like that was the boost in variety the game really needed and I expect it to pop up again once its available.

I definitely think they could condense the older factions some. Some of the themes can be combined and some redundant options counting as resculpts of one another (Trencher Long Gunner, Sword/Precursor Knights, etc). I think most of the Warcasters that have 3 versions could be dropped to 2. Stuff like that.

I suspect the game is on the backburner while they decide just how to revamp it. More importantly than rules, I think it's a question of the product line itself. PVC didn't work out and they've clearly stopped ordering more, but the stocks of it appear to be dwindling and there's a need for replacements. The old SKUs aren't really viable in today's FOMO boxset market and they need to find a way to repackage the way things are sold into something more modern. From the interviews I've heard, it sounds like everyone is well aware of this, its just a question of how to get it done. From what I've heard in interviews, it sounds like there's a plan and I think Warcaster is definitely a testing ground, but I'd wager things get pushed back to when the post COVID market is a little more stable.

Nothing to be done about it at this point though. If people keep insisting its a problem going on a decade when PP last acknowledged its existence.... I mean I guess we can wait for it to die out of living memory but I swear people are determined to teach that grudge to their children, and their children's children. We're all embarrassed by things said during the Daikatana era of marketing, but the unwillingness to accept that its just not a thing anymore after its been pointed out multiple times is just kind of looking for an axe to grind.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Nothing to be done about it at this point though. If people keep insisting its a problem going on a decade when PP last acknowledged its existence.... I mean I guess we can wait for it to die out of living memory but I swear people are determined to teach that grudge to their children, and their children's children. We're all embarrassed by things said during the Daikatana era of marketing, but the unwillingness to accept that its just not a thing anymore after its been pointed out multiple times is just kind of looking for an axe to grind.

Acceptance is not trying to run away from the matter by labeling anyone who mentions it as having an axe to grind.

No one is running. The matter has been addressed. When it was brought up it was mentioned that it was addressed. The past cannot be undone. I'm not sure what more can be done to atone for this apparently grievous sin, but if people are never willing to forgive it.... what can you do?

I guess I don't follow, but I feel like we're talking past each other. I get why it comes up, but that's exactly why it was taken out of the printed material nearly a decade ago after softening it proved insufficient. If removing it entirely isn't enough for someone and we still need to hash it out, I guess I consider that an axe grinding. I'd be happy to leave it dead and buried. I'm not the one digging it back up.

I mean.... even if you wanted Riot Quest.... I don't know anyone that's excited about 4 copies of Riot Quest. I get the plan is to roll out 4 of every model via stretch goals but "parity" is not really the point of game like this. If anything you want everyone to draft so that its all unique characters.

But yeah.... Hungerford's baby that no one really wanted but we all humored for the Warmachine content. It's a better game than you'd assume and provides some dumb fun, but its got some pretty glaring issues that just aren't going to improve.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
They could probably generate more interest with some sort of animated trailer!

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiot Quuuueeeeeeeeeest

Part of the problem is just that the fans already own everything on offer.

At least from what we've seen from the MonPoc campaign, Mythic is more or less in control of packaging and contents. I suspect the 4x thing was their call to begin with.

BGG isn't a great place to go for anything miniatures focused and definitely not for anything with metal minis. That's not to say I don't find that rating extremely generous....

Thanks for the recap! Matt's been pretty open about production woes over the last few years. It's certainly interesting to watch. Siocast feels like a natural fit, but I'm sure they're not excited about proprietary tech.

Kickstarter seems like a pretty poor platform for a single faction release. That's awfully niche.

Cyel wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7-iojP0Yyw

After quite a few years of no WM coverage a new Warmachine (brawl) report on MWG. The amount of positive comments is encouraging, apparently there's still audience for the game and many people just need a little nudge to start playing again.

Brawlmachine is definitely a hugely refreshing format. It's not even all that different from the real game; its little more than a scenario packet, but scenarios that aren't trying to spread a huge number of models across the whole table. It really renewed interest locally and pulled in a big chunk of new players when I got the locals to try it.

I think Warcaster is a little too fundamentally different to work for Warmchine. Matt Wilson described it as their take on Go in the same sense that Warmachine comes from a Chess origin and I think its a fair comparison. I think Warcaster only really works because of its emphasis on ranged combat making units relatively stagnant, where Warmachine would end up losing too much of that football scrum feeling that makes its melee really satisfying if it tried to take very much from it.

Really, Warmachine just needs to be smaller. The big sin to me will always be making huge bases FA:2. That bloated the game so quickly and made it really hard to reign in once things got rolling. As much as I like Brawlmachine, I do find it a little small and lacking some of the big impact elements of the 75 point game. Clashmachine appears to do a good job of splitting the difference and is probably the direction I'd like to see PP go with MK4.

Cyel wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:


Brawlmachine is definitely a hugely refreshing format. It's not even all that different from the real game.

YT randomly suggested to me rewatching some old, mk2 Advanced maneuvers reports. Out of curiosity I ran the lists they used through Conflict Chamber. Modern armies that would have the model equivalents of those end-of-mk2 SR legal "big format" lists came out to be in the range of 40-50 pts. The smallest was 31pts!!! (this one https://youtu.be/chaRtndKza8?t=45) so yeah, 25pts Brawlmachine starts sounding surprisingly close to what the "big" standard used to be - and 1 hour / player hasn't changed since then...

At the launch of MK3 a 75 point list was pretty close to end of MK2. Technically they were a little smaller because lists tilted towards heavies and away from units. Even when themes were introduced, the free points were pretty in line with MK2 themes to the point where several of my lists converted exactly. The big size creep has largely been due to PP "fixing" units by bringing their costs down pretty repeatedly throughout the edition. We've seen pretty regular 4-5 point cuts across them, which makes them desirable to the point to shift the balance back towards large units and also put a full unit or two over MK2 size. 25 points definitely isn't MK2 full game size. It's hard to run more than a single unit in Brawlmachine with any support, but Clashmachine, 50 point scale is definitely a lot closer to MK2 50 points than it was at the changeover.

That’s the rumor. July 26th

It's hard not to feel like the new stuff has a fresh start nature to it. 3 new Warcasters for Cygnar alone has a heavy reboot vibe.

Deadnight wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I would just love if they made Company Of Iron feel less like crap to play and gave it a new box set, an absolutely easy and low effort way to get people playing and introduce them to the Iron Kingdoms, and a decent way to learn the core concepts of the rules without having to worry about feats, Warcaster/Warlock rules and Focus/Fury, or having to watch your entire army be removed in a single round due to poor placement.

Hard disagree.respectfully of course!

To be fair, that isn't warmachine or hordes. And 'core concepts' minus feats warnouns, focus/fury idnt really 'core concepts' any more. You've just chopped out the heart of the game.The central 'core' of both games has alwsys been a duel between wizard characters and their toys and supporting troops. Company Of Iron wasn't great and imo while a skirmish game with a solo, 6 Iron fangs and a greyhound ternion would be awesome, imo it needs an entirely new rules set completely separate from the wmh 2d6+stat minus arm system.

Outside of that what's left imo is not very engaging. Sure, easy to learn but it's like trying to sell a car on the colour of the seat belt or pattern on the seat rather than its actual performance.

I'm all for tweaking and refocusing (pun intended) the wizard 'duel' aspect though - always felt, after having played other games (games like bushido, even the venerable lotr sbg or the flawed but very immersive fighting system in kill team) that 'taking turns to hit each other over the head' didn't feel as dynamic and interactive as it could be, as other duels in other systems could be, and imo that's worth looking at.

Yeah, Company of Iron just had no soul for me. If anything it highlights how unremarkable the combat in the game is without the resource mechanics to decide where to shift the bell curve. The cards provide some of it, but still just kind of leave you with a bland game of combat resolution. FWIW, that's also why reducing the scale of the game seems to enliven it again I feel. You get more emphasis on the battlegroup and all of the soul of the game really shines.

Deadnight wrote:

New khador stuff? I've not seen any links to this komrade can you assist?

Sure thing!

Widowmaker Caster:



80 mm Winter Guard Tank (Bison?)



Dire Wolf Warjack




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 Boss Salvage wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
New khador stuff? I've not seen any links to this komrade can you assist?

I've not been able to find any screen caps from the Primecasts that spoiled them, so I tore them out myself just now: https://imgur.com/gallery/16jPgYo

Bah, beat me to it! >.<

Deadnight wrote:

Thanks konrades - well, they are certainly interesting at the very least. Khador seems to have leapt forward a bit in tech. Absolutely see the warcaster style there. Has the plot moved forward some years or something? I'll.accept mk4 chat on this quite easily. Reboot, maybe?

Yes, quite a bit has happened. Long story short they finally pulled the trigger on the "where magic comes from mystery" and unleashed the apocalypse on the world. A ton of existing characters died; those who didn't fled to the stars to build the Warcaster world, and pretty much every faction was left in shambles. The latest RPG books take place 15 years later after each nation has worked to rebuild itself.

Deadnight wrote:
[

grahamdbailey wrote:One of PP's biggest issues is their refusal to move away from metal and resin miniatures into (usable) plastics across the range.

I'll.agree on the resin but metal is great. I'm putting together some bloodtrackers and metal iron fangs right now and man, they're still great models after 15 years.

The resins are really fantastic as well; just far too pricey for the scale of the game. The detail on them is really outstanding and they use metal in really smart ways to get around the issues with resin's brittle nature.

In terms of plastics; assuming we only accept sprues, they just don't have an affordable means of production. There's a reason that mostly comes down to GW and Asmodee (and Wyrd, through some soul selling ritual I'd wager). Their style also just does not conform well to the limitations of sprues. A lot of the big, chunky aesthetic and detailed fur linings and stuff demands too many undercuts to pull off. I'm hoping all this new stuff is going to be in Siocast, but given how bad of an experience they had with overseas production, I can definitely see why they might be hesitant to move their line over to a proprietary technology.

The PVC stuff is awful, no doubt, but that's completely different from their in house resin. That stuff is fantastic.

The few sprue kits they produced are very solid. The rivets are a little goofy, but overall well designed. It's just attempts to use that stuff on organic creatures that did no work at all.

Their homepage has a ton of content these days, but its really not very well coded and very easy to miss updates. I have no idea who thought scrolling to the bottom to find an auto scrolling newsfeed was a good idea. It scrolls past the latest content before you get down to it.

I also get that IT is not their wheelhouse and they bought the site from some marketing company. It just needs updates.... badly. Outside of that I think the Primecast stuff is honestly pretty in line with what most companies are doing. They just need way more content on the channel than a monthly video to get traction on YouTube.

I think there's probably a happy middle ground to be had. There's a lot of stuff I can see being retired. Some of it can be resculpted and I think we're WELL past the point of "counts as" being an okay plan. Like a LOT of casters can be focused down to 1-2 iconic versions and there's just some units like Sword Knights that could count as Precursor Knights and I'd struggle to find tears.

chaos0xomega wrote:
AFAIK they aren't "bringing" anything in-house, as they have always had in-house production. The HIPS sprue plastics they were briefly experimenting with were outsourced, but the metal and resin stuff was definitely in-house. The only thing I'm not 100% sure of is the pvc material they started using in mk2 - I feel like that was also outsourced but I vaguely remember being told by their staff that it was being done in house as well.

PVC is outsourced. That's why the PVC stuff is drying up. The volume they'd need to order for another print run just isn't worth what the stuff would actually sell.


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Voss wrote:

 Bloviator wrote:
PP presently seems interested in bringing manufacturing totally in house. This means hybrid resin and metal kits which, if you give them a chance, are really nice to work with.

Have they changed something? Because the hybrids they made before (I've got the cygnar storm-walker thing, among a couple others) were anything but nice to work with. Pieces didn't fit well, joins were terrible and often absolutely required pins and lots of gap filling was required to make things look decent.

Since its in house, the resin has been the material they've probably gotten the most proficient with. The Storm Strider and other battle engines were the first batch of models designed with the stuff and they've made significant improvements since then. I know at one point one of the devs mentioned they built their own machines to improve the quality and remove a lot of casting problems. The new stuff is generally great. Extremely well detailed and generally pretty quick to clean and assemble. Much better than the first run battle engines and colossals.