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I like to closely watch the guard meta (some-what casually) via youtube, forums, etc.First Id like to start by saying I am in NO way surprised that they are so late to get a 9th edition codex. An example of my lack of surprise is also noted in Space-marines always getting their codex first (obviously they are games-workshop money-cow). Chaos Space Marines obviously didnt get any love because GW was pushing primaris marines which the chaos boys are without.

So the latest chapter approved was pretty not so great for guard, 95% of their data sheets are not considered competitive, and the manticore actually got a 10 pt increase... Though I do applaud games-workshop for atleast "attempting" to make the standard leman-russ more competitive. Honestly though people are only taking demolisher cannons on them and probably will remain to only take them in tank commander form.

So this brings me to my epiphany, that every social group or clique needs the red headed step-son to the brunt of the heat, perhaps every miniature war-gaming world needs a faction to play the role of standard cannon fodder? Will Games-workshop designate the Astra-Militarum to this role? Will the guy who shows up at the tournament with Astra-Militarum forever be seen as the non-threatening guy of the friend group who definitely will not flirt with your ex-girlfriend? Will the Astra-Militarum never be the meta people build their lists around? Will the only chance a guard player ever have of scoring any victories at a tournament to be playing the basically only competitive list (i.e. its likely the guard will only be effective enough in a competitive setting with basically a couple maybe three general army lists)?

Is the humble guards-man built to be killed in an infinite unimaginable horrible deaths in the 40k millenium that knows only the smell of rotting guards-men on the eve, event, and aftermath of every 40k conflict?

Guards have been meta multiple times, and not so far in the past.

There are factions which regularly receive much less attentions from GW than AM.

Actually I would rate them as one of the most beloved factions by GW.

Sure, right now they fell behind. 9th edition has been rough on them, but there's always that half a dozen factions which get the short hand of the stick. It's a game with more than 30 factions, it is bound to happen.

You're right in saying that GW has always put a lot more attention on Space Marines than they have Imperial Guard. This accusation can be made by pretty much every army out there too.

Sure, in the fluff Guard have always been there to die in droves, perhaps sometimes being saved by Space Marines turning up to kick ass. I don't think that necessarily means that they will always have an inferior codex.

I remember a few times when Guard have actually been quite competitive. Look at the 5th edition codex for example, or more recently at the start of 8th edition. I see no reason why this might not happen again.


You certainly have legitimate comments about the current state of Guard and their historical status. Like I said though there are a lot of other armies out there which at some point or another have been able to say pretty much the same thing.

It ebbs and flows. When I played regularly, IG were a terror on the battlefield (Hydras, Vendettas etc) while SM were "everybody knows how to deal with them no problem" guys and also "more expensive but die as easily as everybody" guys.

Unfortunately the guard dont have much in exotic weaponry, relying on stuff like auto-cannons and lascannons instead of "cognis-autocannons and cognis-lascannons" where as other factions have been able to buff their codex's by going primaris or deviating in some exotic way via stuff like miracle dice and basically a whole new faction within the faction (Primaris marines), even chaos have an absurd amount of demon engines to provide work arounds to make their stuff more powerful to keep up with codex creep, to make matters worse 4+ BS with VERY low sources of rerolls or positive modifiers is really bad these days. The guard that were doing well at the start of 9th were very standardized(3 tank commanders, 6 bare-bones infantry squads, maybe a block of bullgryns with some psychers)

It just seems to me that games-workshop have really made a habit of making guard their punching bags, the best thing guard have had going for them is that people don't consider them a real threat and wont tailor their lists to fight them. Space marines have always been strong in every edition, but because 50% or more of the lists you faced were space marine or some sorta marine-equivalent army; everyone tailored their lists to fight marines.

bat702 wrote:
So this brings me to my epiphany, that every social group or clique needs the red headed step-son to the brunt of the heat, perhaps every miniature war-gaming world needs a faction to play the role of standard cannon fodder? Will Games-workshop designate the Astra-Militarum to this role?

I've never played a game and thought 'I don't like how balanced these factions are, someone should be made to suck'. If anything, I'd think the red-headed stepchild of the 40K universe is the Tau, given how the community treats them and how often they're getting beaten up in the lore.

Anyways, as others have said the balance ebbs and flows, but part of the issue relates to this:

Cyel wrote:
When I played regularly, IG were a terror on the battlefield (Hydras, Vendettas etc) while SM were "everybody knows how to deal with them no problem" guys and also "more expensive but die as easily as everybody" guys.

Basically in a game where T4/3+/W2 constitutes both the most common defensive profile on paper and the most commonly encountered factions in practice, there's a natural trend towards countering that specific threat. That means armies that fall outside this paradigm have a tendency to, when they're powerful, become really oppressive to take-all-comers (read: anti-Marine) armies, and then typically get subsequently nerfed.

Leafblower in 5th, probably the most powerful Guard have ever been, was nasty because in addition to sheer firepower, it presented mostly decent-to-high-AV targets and cheap infantry. If you brought weapons to fight Marines- which you probably did, unless your meta was light on Marines for whatever reason- you had pretty much all suboptimal targets. In early 8th, tides of Conscripts led by Commissars were able to win through holding objectives and presenting more bodies than your average list could handle, but at that point GW was much more proactive about balance changes and both units got nerfed into irrelevance fairly quickly.

Plus, Guard are one of the factions that doesn't get much rules attention or new releases in general. As with Tyranids, Orks, and Tau, there's a tendency for them to get whacked with the nerf bat when they overperform, but languish indefinitely when they underperform. We'll see if 9th breaks the cycle.

"Space Marines gets an unfair amount of attention compared to my faction"

-every single person who does not play space marines, correctly.

From 2nd to 5th edition Imperial Guard we had tons of additional content. Codex Catachan, Cadians in Codex Eye of Terror, Steel Legion and DKOK in Codex Armageddon, Chapter Approved Armoured Company, Chapter Approved Elysians, Chapter Approved DKOK, Imperial Armour Armoured Battlegroup, DKOK Codex, Elysian Codex.

After the Chapter House lawsuit it was all downhill for the Imperial Guard. We were quickly rebranded and had a very rushed 6th edition codex with all the forge world units and any datasheets that no longer (or never) had models was removed. 8th edition we were strong, but mainly because how cheap everything was and that detachments gave rather than costed command points. So allying with cheap Guard for more CP was a no-brainer.

Jarms48 wrote:
From 2nd to 5th edition Imperial Guard we had tons of additional content. Codex Catachan, Cadians in Codex Eye of Terror, Steel Legion and DKOK in Codex Armageddon, Chapter Approved Armoured Company, Chapter Approved Elysians, Chapter Approved DKOK, Imperial Armour Armoured Battlegroup, DKOK Codex, Elysian Codex.

After the Chapter House lawsuit it was all downhill for the Imperial Guard. We were quickly rebranded and had a very rushed 6th edition codex with all the forge world units and any datasheets that no longer (or never) had models was removed. 8th edition we were strong, but mainly because how cheap everything was and that detachments gave rather than costed command points. So allying with cheap Guard for more CP was a no-brainer.

Well, i think IG was the LAST 6th edition codex before 7th (I may be wrong though). It did have the vendetta in there which was so much fun to use as an anti flyer / anti tank vehicle. It wasn't great against anything but vehicles though.

As far as the guard have been treated.... I quit in 8th and have been waiting for a reason to come back. As of now aircraft on the whole act as tanks.... I cannot get over that. The removal of the vendetta also really makes me apathetic.

I also customized all of my guardsmen to have camo cloaks, you know from the veteran doctrines that went away.....

From memory the Chapter House lawsuit was resolved in 2013. Then next year the new Astra Militarum codex dropped (which was fast for GW back then), which as I said above was a shadow of its former self.

Honestly, 9th edition as a whole is better than 6th and 7th to me. But Guard have been stuck in a rough place.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

I also customized all of my guardsmen to have camo cloaks, you know from the veteran doctrines that went away.....

In the age of "Choose subfaction rules for all your guys to customize how they work on the table" this is a very strange sticking point to me personally, but you do you chief.

in part my faith that GW can make a GEQ faction that works well was semi-restored by the excellent GSC and now Tau rules, which do seem to show at least somewhat that GW understands some of the issues GEQ units have and at least someone at the company knows how to fix some of them.

I'm guessing GSC still wont be tournament competitive, because basically only Heavy Infantry lists have been with a few notable exceptions since the beginning of 9e, given how you have to hold objectives for a full turn and the game is at its most absurdly lethal point that it basically ever has been. but they feel vastly improved casually.

I'm interested to see what GW does for Guard with Crusade. The Drukhari, GSC and T'au rules have been like DoW Dark Crusade but IRL and I'm super excited to get started on my campaign next month. I would love to be able to build up a Regiments story from scratch with mechanics plugging it along.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

I also customized all of my guardsmen to have camo cloaks, you know from the veteran doctrines that went away.....

In the age of "Choose subfaction rules for all your guys to customize how they work on the table" this is a very strange sticking point to me personally, but you do you chief.

in part my faith that GW can make a GEQ faction that works well was semi-restored by the excellent GSC and now Tau rules, which do seem to show at least somewhat that GW understands some of the issues GEQ units have and at least someone at the company knows how to fix some of them.

I'm guessing GSC still wont be tournament competitive, because basically only Heavy Infantry lists have been with a few notable exceptions since the beginning of 9e, given how you have to hold objectives for a full turn and the game is at its most absurdly lethal point that it basically ever has been. but they feel vastly improved casually.

Care to elaborate this?
In my experience this is very wrong.
Heavy Infantry has sucked for the whole edition. The most competitive list was vehicle/flyer spam with light infantry support (Admech), and most of the edition has been dominated by mechanized light infantry (Drukhari). We had a brief period of light vehicle spam domination (orks) without infantry at all. Only recently we have the Grotesque lists which are indeed based on light vehicles and heavy infantry.

I feel like he is talking about infantry heavy lists, basically swamping the board with so many bodies and no heavy armor or elite infantry, it has worked well in many cases as your opponents anti-tank weaponry becomes useless and you can play the primary points very hardcore, tho these armies are a pain to paint, setup, buy in some cases, and even play as you having 200 bodies can take a while to move around.

In a historic context 9th's going to look weird because we are probably half way through the edition and various major factions have not had their codex.

Part of this might be due to the issues of international logistics - but it still seems weird. Guard seem set to get a 9th book 5 minutes before 10th edition - if they don't miss out entirely. Maybe it means they have a big release scheduled for some time in 2023.

Over under we won't get a model release for the new Codex which will likely drop in 2023, making the current Guard book the oldest nearly of all Codex in the game?

Guard rely on vehicles
Vehicles are not great in the current rule set
Everyone takes demo Canon because it's the best option because of how they changed the way blast and wounding works, there is basically no reason to ever take a battle canon over a demo canon. Demo Canon is just a straight upgrade to the battle canon. The only thing you loose is range which oh no! It's not like you ever don't have something within 2 feet to shoot.
The other thing that made guard really good was it's ability to deal lots of hits over lots of blasts, things like basilisks dropping pie plates but because you don't get consistent hits across blasts now even with the new blast rule it's a gamble.

Another big thing was guards access to the FW roster for a lot of good units, but because FW has been neglected they don't get access to a lot of those once really good models.

Guard are going to me meh for the rest of 9th unless they get some sort of buff to their vehicles survivability.

Tyel wrote:
In a historic context 9th's going to look weird because we are probably half way through the edition and various major factions have not had their codex.

In a genuine historic context, it is odder that we've seen so many codexes (and supplements) so far this edition.

Off-hand, only 2nd, 3rd and 8th released a full codex cycle during one edition. And 1st didn't have them, though it did have two Chaos books and three Ork books.

 Dysartes wrote:

Tyel wrote:
In a historic context 9th's going to look weird because we are probably half way through the edition and various major factions have not had their codex.

In a genuine historic context, it is odder that we've seen so many codexes (and supplements) so far this edition.

Off-hand, only 2nd, 3rd and 8th released a full codex cycle during one edition. And 1st didn't have them, though it did have two Chaos books and three Ork books.

Every Squat player can tell you that 2nd did not have a full codex release.

"We're the guard, we don't get nice stuff"

But really guard is about the challenge is how to find a way to take the broad array of options and make something clever out of it. Not to crush your opponents per se, but to hold out long enough to pull or deny those last few points, if you were clever about the situation. Any time Guard is strong it's because they want to sell some models or by accident I suspect.

Honestly I worry less about whether or not we will ever be top of the meta for more than a month, but on what might get squatted to simplify the line. The virtue (and collector's challenge) is the vast diversity of things you can tap to build your army, and the customizability on the vehicles and within units. That's a lot of work to maintain and try to balance.

One of the harshest things GW can do is say things like "Yea those 10 crusaders you painted up, you can only run those with sisters now" or deleting vehicles and units (*Cough* Krieg *Cough*).

I don't expect things to be fair, I didn't pick guard to have an easy fight, but please don't waste my time and money by deleting models and customizations I've invested in.

 RegularGuy wrote:
"We're the guard, we don't get nice stuff"

One of the harshest things GW can do is say things like "Yea those 10 crusaders you painted up, you can only run those with sisters now" or deleting vehicles and units (*Cough* Krieg *Cough*).

Yeah, I have some bad feelings about our next codex. Such as:
- Conscripts and Infantry Squads won't really get any better or cheaper, as any kind of lasgun buffs undervalues the bolter and GW are also adament about the 5 point model floor.
- I think all the infantry focus will be on the rumoured Kasrkin kit. They'll be something like generic Grenadiers any Imperial Guard sub-faction can take. Basically Scions with no deep strike but has the <Regiment> keyword. Very likely aggressively costed at 8 points, and infantry lists will have to be based around them to be competitive.
- We're likely to loose access to HWT's in Infantry Squads, Veteran Squads, and Command Squads as they don't come in the kits.
- I do believe Crusaders will be gone.
- Commissars morale buffs will be nerfed. Just look at Orks and how much their morale buffs took a hit.
- Leman Russ tanks will lose grinding advance, while their gun stats will get better it won't really matter as having BS4+ and half the shots will kill them.
- I do believe our artillery will be buffed, but my fear is they'll be too expensive to be competitive. For example I could see the Basilisk getting flat 3 damage or D6 damage, losing the roll 2 choose the highest shot roll, but going up to something like 145 points. Which is the same as a Skorpius Disintegrator.
- The new rumoured tank, similar to the Kasrkins, will be very overtuned. It's supposed to be inbetween the Leman Russ and Baneblade, so for example it just has 2D6 battle cannon shots in built no half move required at a very cheap point cost.

What might be nice:
- Mono-faction ability.
- Better regiment abilities.
- GSC style 4 point custom regiment creation system. Hopefully.
- Unlimited vox-caster range, see datatethers.
- Ogryns and Bullgryns getting a 5+++ FNP. Similar units are getting them, and this will make them quite tanky.
- Baneblades might get a really nice buff, look at Tau weapons. I imagine the Quake and Volcanon cannons would have to be espessially nasty.
- Stronger vehicle weapons in general.

Before I go on I should mention that I stopped playing shortly after 8th dropped and sold my army. Before that I played Guard exclusively from 5th onwards.
Firstly, and before I go on, in my experience the IG has never been strong, ever. Leafblower is touted as the Guard being OP, but people fail to remember that to make it work you need the Inquisition allied with you. Pure Guard has been ok, but never game breaking.
In all honesty, and based on my experience playing Guard, I have to play the pessimist. Guard rarely ever get good stuff and when they do it is stomped into the ground. Even the absurd Conscript volley blocks of early 8th (which were a red herring, few people have the hundreds of pounds of weeks of time required to raise such a force) did not last long. We went through the entirety of 6th without a codex update or even a formation 7th, and when we did get them? Nerfs all round. Everything got worse, tanks became more expensive for no reason, Hydras became unable to hit anything not zipping about in the air, Veterans were nerfed, we lost special characters, Chimeras received a massive points hike, sentinels were not worth it, and if that wasnt bad enough all bar 2 of the formations were unusable, and one of those required 3 Baneblade chassis.

I predict something similar here. MEQ is the meta, and nothing is allowed to challenge that. It is perfectly fine for SM's to waltz all over the Guard, Tau to blast them to bits or Eldar to play flechette fun, but the moment the Guard gain even a tiny bit of traction in return it is stomped out to the chorus of crying MEQ players demanding "the big mean OP guard are nerfed back to balance (read, not a real threat) because they shouldnt be able to pull a win".
Im sorry for this negative view point, but in my experience, this is how it goes.

I really have never thought conscripts were ever that OP, more like slightly high in power but still laughable funny when their 5+ BS las-guns, if your opponent brought even minimal anti-horde weaponry they were probably guna become human red goo rather quickly, but people went crazy saying they needed to be nerfed, and they were..

Hate to burst your bubble here, but...

Jarms48 wrote:

What might be nice:
- Mono-faction ability.

That's Orders, son.

- Better regiment abilities.
- GSC style 4 point custom regiment creation system. Hopefully.

This one is a possibility.

- Unlimited vox-caster range, see datatethers.

Still costs at least 10 points, as it takes 2 to tango. Probably won't be worth the extra five points per squad.

- Ogryns and Bullgryns getting a 5+++ FNP. Similar units are getting them, and this will make them quite tanky.

They already have a strategem that allows them to add to saving throws to nearby units. Plus, with Psychic Barrier, they'll already have a 2+ Armor save and 3++ Invuln. Unless they nerf the saves from the shields, I don't see them getting this, though I do see them nerfing Psychic Barrier.

- Baneblades might get a really nice buff, look at Tau weapons. I imagine the Quake and Volcanon cannons would have to be espessially nasty.

They'd also need a 2+ Armor save (which they may get) and/or some kind of Invuln, (which I don't see them getting). Otherwise, they're still toast turn 1.

- Stronger vehicle weapons in general.

We're not going to get even equal weapons to Tau, so bear that in mind.

For some odd reason, GW is scared to give Guard any kind of major buff. Look at what they've given us so far: boosts to Cadians, who's game plan is antithetical to what's needed in 9th (i.e. closing into the middle objectives). Orders buff shaves a few points off our lists, and while I appreciate the Leman Russ Buffs, they're still blown off the board in short order.

I don't collect armies based on the changing meta. I play Guard because I like the everyman facing down the terrors of the galaxy with nothing but his/her trusty lasgun.

Some days, we'll dominate the meta, and some days we'll be at the bottom of the pack. Today, we hold in our foxhole until the shelling stops.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Hate to burst your bubble here, but...That's Orders, son.

If they make our mono-faction ability orders, without massively buffing them, feth. That's going to piss me off so much.

They already have a strategem that allows them to add to saving throws to nearby units. Plus, with Psychic Barrier, they'll already have a 2+ Armor save and 3++ Invuln. Unless they nerf the saves from the shields, I don't see them getting this, though I do see them nerfing Psychic Barrier.

They're absolutely losing the 3++.

They'd also need a 2+ Armor save (which they may get) and/or some kind of Invuln, (which I don't see them getting). Otherwise, they're still toast turn 1.

I think a 2+ save is a given. No invul, but if we're lucky maybe more wounds and a -1 damage.

We're not going to get even equal weapons to Tau, so bear that in mind.

I could see the Vanquisher being similar to a railgun. Maybe no ignore invuls though and no additional mortals. It'll probably, and sadly, be similar to the Macharius Vanquisher something like: 72 inch, S14, AP-4, Damage 6 + D3, +1 to Hit against Vehicles and Monsters.

Orders buff shaves a few points off our lists, and while I appreciate the Leman Russ Buffs, they're still blown off the board in short order.

If you play competitively, this changed nothing. Because MMM is the only useful order for infantry, and it wasn't included.

Personally I feel a feel no pain type save or just more wounds would be the best way to buff the durability of bane-blade chasis tanks, tho keeping in mind adding more wounds to guard vehicles can be devastating in the form of bring it down points you can easily score when facing them

*Edit, they should also of course get the 2+ save the leman russes got

Expect nothing, be delivered less.

bat702 wrote:
I like to closely watch the guard meta (some-what casually) via youtube, forums, etc.First Id like to start by saying I am in NO way surprised that they are so late to get a 9th edition codex. An example of my lack of surprise is also noted in Space-marines always getting their codex first (obviously they are games-workshop money-cow). Chaos Space Marines obviously didnt get any love because GW was pushing primaris marines which the chaos boys are without.

So the latest chapter approved was pretty not so great for guard, 95% of their data sheets are not considered competitive, and the manticore actually got a 10 pt increase... Though I do applaud games-workshop for atleast "attempting" to make the standard leman-russ more competitive. Honestly though people are only taking demolisher cannons on them and probably will remain to only take them in tank commander form.

So this brings me to my epiphany, that every social group or clique needs the red headed step-son to the brunt of the heat, perhaps every miniature war-gaming world needs a faction to play the role of standard cannon fodder? Will Games-workshop designate the Astra-Militarum to this role? Will the guy who shows up at the tournament with Astra-Militarum forever be seen as the non-threatening guy of the friend group who definitely will not flirt with your ex-girlfriend? Will the Astra-Militarum never be the meta people build their lists around? Will the only chance a guard player ever have of scoring any victories at a tournament to be playing the basically only competitive list (i.e. its likely the guard will only be effective enough in a competitive setting with basically a couple maybe three general army lists)?

Is the humble guards-man built to be killed in an infinite unimaginable horrible deaths in the 40k millenium that knows only the smell of rotting guards-men on the eve, event, and aftermath of every 40k conflict?

Every army goes through this sooner or later. The longer you play the more you get used to it. When I started in 5th, IG had the leafblower list, named because it felt like taking a leafblower to the table and blowing the opponents models away. Then we slowly got worse through 6th and 7th, at best being allies to other armies that could abuse keywords to buff our stuff. Then 8th dropped and we were great again, only to slowly drop through nerfs till we get to 9th, where we fell off a cliff because 9th edition actively punishes you for making a guard army.

Its just how it goes. Look at tau for example, absolutely terrible till their codex in 9th dropped. Same for GSC, same for admech, you get the idea. Im not sure what theyll do to make IG function in 9th but we're a very popular army, its not like they actively want us to fail. That level of malice is reserved for chaos marine players, as shown by them waiting two years for a second wound loyalists got day 1 of 9th edition.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


Every army goes through this sooner or later. The longer you play the more you get used to it. When I started in 5th, IG had the leafblower list, named because it felt like taking a leafblower to the table and blowing the opponents models away. Then we slowly got worse through 6th and 7th, at best being allies to other armies that could abuse keywords to buff our stuff. Then 8th dropped and we were great again, only to slowly drop through nerfs till we get to 9th, where we fell off a cliff because 9th edition actively punishes you for making a guard army.

Its just how it goes. Look at tau for example, absolutely terrible till their codex in 9th dropped. Same for GSC, same for admech, you get the idea. Im not sure what theyll do to make IG function in 9th but we're a very popular army, its not like they actively want us to fail. That level of malice is reserved for chaos marine players, as shown by them waiting two years for a second wound loyalists got day 1 of 9th edition.

It just feels bad being spoiler in even narrative games. Playing a crusade now with people who either have their codexes or are soon to get theirs, and I've only won one of seven games, even after following the advice of other Guard players online.

Well, I do enjoy collecting and painting them, so I guess I'll do that in the meantime. Just keeping in my foxhole for now.

Arcanis161 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


Every army goes through this sooner or later. The longer you play the more you get used to it. When I started in 5th, IG had the leafblower list, named because it felt like taking a leafblower to the table and blowing the opponents models away. Then we slowly got worse through 6th and 7th, at best being allies to other armies that could abuse keywords to buff our stuff. Then 8th dropped and we were great again, only to slowly drop through nerfs till we get to 9th, where we fell off a cliff because 9th edition actively punishes you for making a guard army.

Its just how it goes. Look at tau for example, absolutely terrible till their codex in 9th dropped. Same for GSC, same for admech, you get the idea. Im not sure what theyll do to make IG function in 9th but we're a very popular army, its not like they actively want us to fail. That level of malice is reserved for chaos marine players, as shown by them waiting two years for a second wound loyalists got day 1 of 9th edition.

It just feels bad being spoiler in even narrative games. Playing a crusade now with people who either have their codexes or are soon to get theirs, and I've only won one of seven games, even after following the advice of other Guard players online.

Well, I do enjoy collecting and painting them, so I guess I'll do that in the meantime. Just keeping in my foxhole for now.

Boi, if that vexes you, you can always take a look at FW legends armies.

It's a problem of gw releasing rules peacemeal instead of at once. but don't fret sm2.0 is on the Way.