Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was playing with list building and I keep trying to get Eliminators in the list - mostly because I had a sniper scout squad as one of my usual troops from way way back, but also because I like variety.

The last iteration was a Spearhead Detach with a scaled down version of my usual list - so I had 3 Eliminator squads with a Phobos Cap and LT - thinking all 5 units (totally 11 models) could set up together and plink enemy characters.

Vs T4, 3+ (-2) or 5++ save The Eliminators get 9 shots from a Mortis Round -
7.56 first roll+1.21(reroll)=8.77 hits
5.8759+(2.8941 failed to wound, half are 1's half are 2's - 1.44705 reroll to .9695235 more wounds)= 6.8454235 wounds.

2.258989755 unsaved wounds = 4.517 damage + 1.14 mortal wounds. 5.65 damage a turn by mathematical average.

So I can kill a Primaris Lieutenant or below character per turn. for 400 points and 3CP. Or 2.5 Marines or less.

2x10 sniper scouts + Telion is about 425, and potentially NOT 3CP as its easier to squish an HQ and a couple Elites into a battalion than all three Heavy Support. They'll do about 8 damage vs T4 3+ (or 4++ as they have less AP)

300 points of Heavy Intercessors with Heavy Bolt- ers/Rifles will do 6 damage. So they and sniper scouts (with Telion support) put out about 2 damage per 100 points while eliminators put out about 1.5 with character support included.


Now if we go all Las Fusil (for 450ish points) - vs T8 3+
9 shots
7.56 first roll+1.21(reroll)=8.77 hits
4.385+(4.385 failed to wound, 1/3 are 1's 2/3 are 2's - so .72 more wounds)= 5 and change wounds.
5.1 vs a now 6+ = .4.284 unsaved = 12.85 damage

vs 5 Eliminators with a Cap/Lt Support for about 400 points:
10 shots (5x2)
6.7 hits
3.35 wound - no save, 11.725 damage (outside of half range)

So I'm thinking:

Sniper Eliminators aren't very good - especially in the HS slot, with 3 and only 3, thus capping at 9 due to the Rule of 3. Its not that their price per model is bad, its that their model/per slot/per army cap is too low to get significant performance

Sniper Scouts aren't good but they aren't bad either particularly in large numbers - and would do well vs some armies. Plus just because the Phobos Captain isn't a Scout doesn't mean he can't infiltrate next to them for a reroll bubble I wasn't thinking about. You can get 20 sniper scouts for the same price as 12 Eliminators. 30 for the price of 18. And you're starting to look like Mortal Wound Spam. 30 shots, 20 hits, 3-4 mortal wounds plus the normal wounds. Of course that's over 500 for the scouts and about 700 points assuming 3 squads and Cap/LT reroll bubble which would get you another mortal wound or two.

I'm even more convinced only a 50% upcharge for Heavy Intercessors over (Regular) Intercessors is a steal to get +1T, +1W, longer range and heavy bolters.

I didn't do the math for the Instigator Bolt Carbine, but it's just a worse sniper rifle to trigger a fairly niche gimmick.

Las Fusil Eliminators DO make a potential Spearhead Detach just for three squads with reroll support a potentially viable option.

Eliminators even with lasfusil still probably won't see much play. Tha'ts a pretty hefty investment both monetarily and points/CP wise compared to dragging around 5 Eradicators in your Deathstar Ball that already has Reroll bubbles.

Are all the "snipers" (i.e. Ignores Look Out Sir) between not-good to awful?
Am I being too hard on the Eliminators?
Do Heavy Intercessors get a lot of play in your area?

From a general game standpoint, I think its necessary for Sniper units (specifically ignoring Look Out Sir at a decent range) to be sub optimal on raw numbers.

If their damage output was up to par, they would be far too oppressive.

So you have to look at it as you're not paying for damage, you're paying for utility. Deployment options, and the fear from the opponent of what COULD happen if you roll hot.

How much damage non-snipers do per point isn't really relevant though, is it? They can't target characters freely.

As to scouts, they don't have the Phobos keyword and thus don't benefit much from the Obscuration Discipline of Phobos Librarians. And Telion is just for Ultramarines, so shouldn't be used in a general case comparison.

I mean a Deathwatch Army can have a Spectrus Kill Team with 5 Infiltrators (including Helix Adept) and 5 Eliminators benefitting from a Phobos Librarian's Soul Sight (reroll hits and ignore cover) for 320 points (SM Codex, don't have latest Field Manual on hand), and they have Obsec, omniscramblers and maybe a kill team specialism to reroll wounds of 1 on HQ units. (Purgatis, +25 points basically replacing a Lieutenant). That doesn't make Eliminators better in general case any more than it makes Scouts better in general by adding Telion.

I'm not saying Eliminators are great, I don't think they are, but they are probably better than you're giving them credit for.

 Stux wrote:
From a general game standpoint, I think its necessary for Sniper units (specifically ignoring Look Out Sir at a decent range) to be sub optimal on raw numbers.

If their damage output was up to par, they would be far too oppressive.

So you have to look at it as you're not paying for damage, you're paying for utility. Deployment options, and the fear from the opponent of what COULD happen if you roll hot.

I get that Snipers shouldn't be overpowering. But I think they should be better than they are vs Infantry and somewhat vs Monsters. I'd give their sniper weapons the SNIPER keyword and have that give them a bonus vs Infantry and a different bonus vs Monsters. I think they should be the Rock Paper Scissors counter to Characters and Heavy Infantry with an in-a-pinch fill in vs Monsters. Get rid of the Mortals, make Sniper Rifles D1, D3 or D4 vs Infantry, something like -X to hit D6 vs Monsters. But that's netiher here nor there really. Just wish casting.

Mostly I'm wondering if I'm missing something about Eliminators. There are a couple units I'd like to fit in but just can't. Eliminators and Firestrikes.

A good number of characters your going to want to snipe will have bodyguards hanging nearby. That alone makes ignoring look out sir much less useful.

 John Prins wrote:
How much damage non-snipers do per point isn't really relevant though, is it? They can't target characters freely.

As to scouts, they don't have the Phobos keyword and thus don't benefit much from the Obscuration Discipline of Phobos Librarians. And Telion is just for Ultramarines, so shouldn't be used in a general case comparison.

I mean a Deathwatch Army can have a Spectrus Kill Team with 5 Infiltrators (including Helix Adept) and 5 Eliminators benefitting from a Phobos Librarian's Soul Sight (reroll hits and ignore cover) for 320 points (SM Codex, don't have latest Field Manual on hand), and they have Obsec, omniscramblers and maybe a kill team specialism to reroll wounds of 1 on HQ units. (Purgatis, +25 points basically replacing a Lieutenant). That doesn't make Eliminators better in general case any more than it makes Scouts better in general by adding Telion.

I'm not saying Eliminators are great, I don't think they are, but they are probably better than you're giving them credit for.

Wait, what? Telion is UM only so we shouldn't count him, but let me tell you about something only the Deathwatch can do?

Also I wasn't counting the Libby in there, it was just a Phobos Cap/LT for the reroll bubbles. Which they can still provide to scouts as the only generally available Infiltrating HQ's.

I think Las Fusil Eliminators are decent. Sniper Elims probably drift into Bad. But I would like to hear your case for why they're not. That was why I asked.

Even your example of a Spectrus Kill Team went directly to what I thought the fatal flaws of the Eliminators are. 3 and only 3, the Rule of Three and, Heavy Support Slot. You just removed both of those caps and moved them to the Troops Slot. You can now have units of 5, and as many as you can afford troops slots.

Breton wrote:

Wait, what? Telion is UM only so we shouldn't count him, but let me tell you about something only the Deathwatch can do?

Yes. What Deathwatch can do is EXACTLY why you shouldn't be talking about what Ultramarines can do to make Scouts look better than Eliminators. Being in a certain faction can make units better than the general case.

Also I wasn't counting the Libby in there, it was just a Phobos Cap/LT for the reroll bubbles. Which they can still provide to scouts as the only generally available Infiltrating HQ's.

Phobos Librarians have Concealed Positions as well and generally pair very well with Eliminators, though to be fair only with 1 squad of them.

I think Las Fusil Eliminators are decent. Sniper Elims probably drift into Bad. But I would like to hear your case for why they're not. That was why I asked.

In general I think Sniper Eliminators are meh, but let's do a side by side comparison. Again I'll use the SM Codex point values.

5 scouts with Sniper Rifles and Camo Cloaks: 90 points
BS3+, 5W, 6A, 4+ Save, +2 Save in Cover, Concealed Positions, Outflank, Elite Slot
5 Shots with S4 AP-1 D1 MW on wound of 6

3 Eliminators with Sniper Rifles: 90 points
BS2+ 6W, 7A, 3+ Save, +2 Save in Cover, Concealed Positions, Heavy Support Slot
3 Shots with S5 Ap-1 D1 +1 to Hit and Ignores Cover or
3D3 Shots with S5 Ap0 D1 Blast or
3 Shots with S5 Ap-2 D2 MW on wound of 6

Without even delving into mathhammer, Eliminators have more wounds, more attacks, better saves and a way better gun (with better BS) that can do more than just snipe (9 S5 shots vs 6+ man units).

Scouts have Outflank, but they'll miss Devastator Doctrine if they do and count as moving in turn 2, basically losing turn 1 shooting with -1 AP and nerfing turn 2 shooting, so Outflank is kind of bad for sniper scouts!

If I just wanted a Concealed Positions sniper nugget I'd choose Eliminators. If I wanted a dedicated anti-character force, you're correct that a potential 30 Scouts is a lot more dangerous than 9 Eliminators, but 30 scouts costs twice as much as 9 Eliminators.

Now obviously large Scout blocks will benefit more from character auras and stratagems, but Eliminators already natively have better BS and a better chance to wound (S5) so they don't need characters at all - they're +1 to hit and wound over Scouts by themselves.

Snipers of any brand generally are NOT great on the mathhammer side of things, but Concealed Positions alone can snag early objectives and small relatively cheap units can do stuff like actions while your big bois do the heavy lifting. It's not all mathhammer damage output that wins games, after all.

90 points is pretty cheap for a SM unit to do these things and maybe, maybe if you're lucky pop an important character, especially if you're facing something other than Space Marines (non-Crisis Tau leaders, Imperial Guard Commanders, GSC leaders, etc.).

 John Prins wrote:


Yes. What Deathwatch can do is EXACTLY why you shouldn't be talking about what Ultramarines can do to make Scouts look better than Eliminators. Being in a certain faction can make units better than the general case.

As mentioned I switched to Telion because of a mental block of mixing Firstborn and Primaris - I'd do the Cap/LT instead/with Telion with Scouts.

In general I think Sniper Eliminators are meh, but let's do a side by side comparison. Again I'll use the SM Codex point values.

5 scouts with Sniper Rifles and Camo Cloaks: 90 points
BS3+, 5W, 6A, 4+ Save, +2 Save in Cover, Concealed Positions, Outflank, Elite Slot
5 Shots with S4 AP-1 D1 MW on wound of 6

3 Eliminators with Sniper Rifles: 90 points
BS2+ 6W, 7A, 3+ Save, +2 Save in Cover, Concealed Positions, Heavy Support Slot
3 Shots with S5 Ap-1 D1 +1 to Hit and Ignores Cover or
3D3 Shots with S5 Ap0 D1 Blast or
3 Shots with S5 Ap-2 D2 MW on wound of 6

Without even delving into mathhammer, Eliminators have more wounds, more attacks, better saves and a way better gun (with better BS) that can do more than just snipe (9 S5 shots vs 6+ man units).

Scouts have Outflank, but they'll miss Devastator Doctrine if they do and count as moving in turn 2, basically losing turn 1 shooting with -1 AP and nerfing turn 2 shooting, so Outflank is kind of bad for sniper scouts!

If I just wanted a Concealed Positions sniper nugget I'd choose Eliminators. If I wanted a dedicated anti-character force, you're correct that a potential 30 Scouts is a lot more dangerous than 9 Eliminators, but 30 scouts costs twice as much as 9 Eliminators.

Now obviously large Scout blocks will benefit more from character auras and stratagems, but Eliminators already natively have better BS and a better chance to wound (S5) so they don't need characters at all - they're +1 to hit and wound over Scouts by themselves.

Snipers of any brand generally are NOT great on the mathhammer side of things, but Concealed Positions alone can snag early objectives and small relatively cheap units can do stuff like actions while your big bois do the heavy lifting. It's not all mathhammer damage output that wins games, after all.

90 points is pretty cheap for a SM unit to do these things and maybe, maybe if you're lucky pop an important character, especially if you're facing something other than Space Marines (non-Crisis Tau leaders, Imperial Guard Commanders, GSC leaders, etc.).

If I just want Infiltrate (i.e. Concealed Positions) I'd go with Infiltrators/Incursors. Incursors are only slightly more for 5 bodies with ObSec - although your numbers for the sniper Elims are off I think they're slightly cheaper.

In that 90 point +/- 15 point price range - if you need deep strike/infiltrate: you've got Incursors, Deep Striking Assault Squads, Deep Striking Suppresors. Deep Striking Reivers, Scouts, and Drop Pods. Otherwise if you just need speed you've also got ATVs, Bike Squads, Scout Bike Squads, Attack Bike Squads, and Many of the Land Speeder variants - if you need neither and just a cheap but "good" unit, Bladeguard Vets, kitted out Company Vets, Command Squad Characters (Assorted Champions, Ancients, and Apothecaries) And Firestrike Turrets are in that 75-105 range. Most of those are "better" than the Eliminators I think. But I don't know, the performing an action thing is there - for both the Eliminators and the other units. I think most actions prevent shooting so I'm not sure "you won't care if you skip a turn of shooting" is really a selling point for Eliminators though. At least they're better than Firestrike Turrets I guess Maybe next edition will make the sniper style itself better. And improve the Firestrikes. I'd really like to run a unit of those with the Twin Accelerators but can't justify them over Suppressors if I really want some cheap autocanons - If 3 turrets are around 200 (instead of 270) so you're basically choosing between the motility of the Suppressors, or the toughness of the Turrets they'd be a reasonable personal-preference/style choice.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Veldrain wrote:
A good number of characters your going to want to snipe will have bodyguards hanging nearby. That alone makes ignoring look out sir much less useful.

How many people take bodyguard units at all? Many of them will have a 4++ too. The targets I immediately though of were Smite Spam from Thousand Sons, or IG officers to shut down orders. Kellermorphs would be something I'd snipe before it gunslinger sniped me. Against my own usual army I'd snipe the Apothecary then the Ancient before I went after the Warlord. I've played with adding some Victrix in as well as a precaution but people don't take snipers so they don't generally take bodyguards as near as I can tell. That would work for a lot of Marine lists too - along with Lieutenants, Champions, Judiciars, Libbies, etc. The secondary characters - HQ's who don't have an invuln, or Elite Company Command type characters. Knights and Deathguard would really just laugh at you for putting snipers on the field. Daemons would be another army more susceptible. Current Aeldari aren't going to be too worried - Drukhari are probably only worried if they're taking Beastmasters. Current Harlequins have a 4++, Necron C'Tan aren't going to care much. Orks have a lot of these Elite Characters, but I gather they rarely use them otherwise they'd be a decent target. Nids are going to be laughing with the Knights and Deathguard.

Breton wrote:


If I just want Infiltrate (i.e. Concealed Positions) I'd go with Infiltrators/Incursors. Incursors are only slightly more for 5 bodies with ObSec - although your numbers for the sniper Elims are off I think they're slightly cheaper.

minor point, but deathwatch spectus kill team eliminators are troops, and thus also obsec.

Yep Infiltrators are strictly better for forward positioning and area denial. I don't think this pushes Eliminators into 'bad' territory - as in, so bad you'd never field them. If nothing else sometimes you don't have the points for Infiltrators and Eliminators can do the job for cheaper, mess with the opponent's head and sometimes get lucky and explode an HQ unit's head turn one.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

Breton wrote:


If I just want Infiltrate (i.e. Concealed Positions) I'd go with Infiltrators/Incursors. Incursors are only slightly more for 5 bodies with ObSec - although your numbers for the sniper Elims are off I think they're slightly cheaper.

minor point, but deathwatch spectus kill team eliminators are troops, and thus also obsec.

So are the Outriders. And Aggressors. And Eradicators. I'm kind of surprised more people aren't playing Deathwatch games with Obsec on units that are normally not in addition to being more count limited. In 2,000 points I'm making 56 models, 50 of which are ObSec -
10 Heavy Intercessors, 2HB
10 Infiltrators, 2 Helix
10 Eliminators w Las Fusil
5 Intercessors w Grenade
5 Outriders
5 Boltstorm Aggresors
5 Eradicators

Bladeguard Cap, LT, and a 4 man Bladeguard Vet squad. It just feels nasty.

Yep Deathwatch is pretty sweet handing out all the Obsec.

 John Prins wrote:
Yep Deathwatch is pretty sweet handing out all the Obsec.

. And getting around the 3 and only 3 unit issues. I’ll gladly give up an Outrider Sgt for 5 total outriders on a Ginsu mission, and 10 Las Fusil Eliminators with ObSec, and 3+ 5++ Aggressors with ObSec backed up by Bladeguard. I do something similar with my Ultras but not this well. I’m hoping that’s the test bed for 11th Edition where almost all infantry and/or CORE get ObSec.

They're probably one of those units that is fine but not necessarily top tier. If you want to kill tanks, other units will do it better than las fusils. If you want to snipe characters, there's probably a more efficient option out there.

Personally, I want to try running them alongside allied in ratlings (of all things). Give both units a convenient cover wall. Pop up, shoot, and hustle back down to safety; preferably onto an objective. It's not a lot of character-targeting damage each turn, but your units can stay safe-ish while they deliver it. In theory, they're doing a little damage, a little deepstrike denial, and a little objective scoring without being a huge investment. So maybe they don't snipe a character to death, but maybe they leave the character weak enough for one of my forward units to finish off.

Oddly I was having a chat with my usual opponents about snipers, they do all suck a little as it is, but they have to.

If you were just removing peoples hq's left and right then people will get the feelsbads and likely just relegate to in transports/out of LoS characters. If you increase snipers stopping power to tackle stuff with good T/saves it also makes removing less robust characters (guard hqs/elites as an example) trivial at best.

Given the game is character centric, they're forced to be less than efficient with the upshot of they can theoretically remove buff pieces that really hurt your opponent.

For once they're probably right on the money for the lethality, the rest of the game is too far ahead and the armies too big.

Eliminators are a good unit on paper.
But it largely depends on the general to use them efficiently on the battlefield.
They are usually a one-hit wonder. If the enemy targets them, they are gone.
Nevertheless their output could be significant.

Its like in real war, if a unit shoots some anti-tank javelins, it must reposition asap.
E.g., GK Interceptors have such a possibility: shoot and fade.

Breton wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:

Breton wrote:


If I just want Infiltrate (i.e. Concealed Positions) I'd go with Infiltrators/Incursors. Incursors are only slightly more for 5 bodies with ObSec - although your numbers for the sniper Elims are off I think they're slightly cheaper.

minor point, but deathwatch spectus kill team eliminators are troops, and thus also obsec.

So are the Outriders. And Aggressors. And Eradicators. I'm kind of surprised more people aren't playing Deathwatch games with Obsec on units that are normally not in addition to being more count limited. In 2,000 points I'm making 56 models, 50 of which are ObSec -
10 Heavy Intercessors, 2HB
10 Infiltrators, 2 Helix
10 Eliminators w Las Fusil
5 Intercessors w Grenade
5 Outriders
5 Boltstorm Aggresors
5 Eradicators

Bladeguard Cap, LT, and a 4 man Bladeguard Vet squad. It just feels nasty.

This type of list would have had a great run for about one month if people could have gotten heavy intercessor models. Alas, Drukhari codex came out and this type of list was dead at conception. Then AdMech came out and beat the dead horse. And now Tau are dancing on its grave.

To answer the OP, I think Eliminators are--in terms of internal balance--just OK. Especially in a Deathwatch list.

Breton wrote:
I'm kind of surprised more people aren't playing Deathwatch games with Obsec on units that are normally not in addition to being more count limited

Because DW outside of obsec spam is crap?

You're sacrificing doctrines, superdoctrines, ability to take 2 traits, relics, stratagems, etc, etc, for a handful of bad ones that mostly work against xenos only (granted, this is more useful than it was a year ago seeing most xeno armies are now OP but still). If whoever clown who nerfed SIA was given the boot and SIA once again worked for all bolt type weapons, DW would be OK again, as it is, you can make better DW using custom chapter traits and rule combos other chapters can pull. Which is really sad

They're great and far outshine my Vindicare or my Scout Snipers in game.

Add a unit to a marine army - it gives you a stack of options to deploy, target, and threaten.

Not too sure about spamming them.

 Irbis wrote:

Breton wrote:
I'm kind of surprised more people aren't playing Deathwatch games with Obsec on units that are normally not in addition to being more count limited

Because DW outside of obsec spam is crap?

You're sacrificing doctrines, superdoctrines, ability to take 2 traits, relics, stratagems, etc, etc, for a handful of bad ones that mostly work against xenos only (granted, this is more useful than it was a year ago seeing most xeno armies are now OP but still). If whoever clown who nerfed SIA was given the boot and SIA once again worked for all bolt type weapons, DW would be OK again, as it is, you can make better DW using custom chapter traits and rule combos other chapters can pull. Which is really sad

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Don't Deathwatch have access to all the strats and relics that any Adeptus Astartes models have access to? Where does it say they can't? It's Codex Suppliment: Deathwatch, after all.

 John Prins wrote:
In general I think Sniper Eliminators are meh, but let's do a side by side comparison. Again I'll use the SM Codex point values.

5 scouts with Sniper Rifles and Camo Cloaks: 90 points
BS3+, 5W, 6A, 4+ Save, +2 Save in Cover, Concealed Positions, Outflank, Elite Slot
5 Shots with S4 AP-1 D1 MW on wound of 6

3 Eliminators with Sniper Rifles: 90 points
BS2+ 6W, 7A, 3+ Save, +2 Save in Cover, Concealed Positions, Heavy Support Slot
3 Shots with S5 Ap-1 D1 +1 to Hit and Ignores Cover or
3D3 Shots with S5 Ap0 D1 Blast or
3 Shots with S5 Ap-2 D2 MW on wound of 6

Don't you mean 75 points for 3 Sniper Eliminators? It's +5 points each for Las Fusils, or 90 for all 3.
For the point cost (assuming you can get them into cover), they are super tanky. Which is their main use, IMO. Las Fusils compare well to Lascannon Longfangs though.

Kaied wrote:
Don't you mean 75 points for 3 Sniper Eliminators?

I mentioned I didn't have the current points on hand so I just used the Codex SM point values.

 John Prins wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Breton wrote:
I'm kind of surprised more people aren't playing Deathwatch games with Obsec on units that are normally not in addition to being more count limited

Because DW outside of obsec spam is crap?

You're sacrificing doctrines, superdoctrines, ability to take 2 traits, relics, stratagems, etc, etc, for a handful of bad ones that mostly work against xenos only (granted, this is more useful than it was a year ago seeing most xeno armies are now OP but still). If whoever clown who nerfed SIA was given the boot and SIA once again worked for all bolt type weapons, DW would be OK again, as it is, you can make better DW using custom chapter traits and rule combos other chapters can pull. Which is really sad

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Don't Deathwatch have access to all the strats and relics that any Adeptus Astartes models have access to? Where does it say they can't? It's Codex Suppliment: Deathwatch, after all.

They do. They also get Doctrines. It'd be really weird if they didn't since instead of a Superdoctrine they get to pick which Doctrine is active each turn instead of having to go through the order of Dev->Tac-Assault

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Breton wrote:
I'm kind of surprised more people aren't playing Deathwatch games with Obsec on units that are normally not in addition to being more count limited

Because DW outside of obsec spam is crap?

You're sacrificing doctrines, superdoctrines, ability to take 2 traits, relics, stratagems, etc, etc, for a handful of bad ones that mostly work against xenos only (granted, this is more useful than it was a year ago seeing most xeno armies are now OP but still). If whoever clown who nerfed SIA was given the boot and SIA once again worked for all bolt type weapons, DW would be OK again, as it is, you can make better DW using custom chapter traits and rule combos other chapters can pull. Which is really sad

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Don't Deathwatch have access to all the strats and relics that any Adeptus Astartes models have access to? Where does it say they can't? It's Codex Suppliment: Deathwatch, after all.

They do. They also get Doctrines. It'd be really weird if they didn't since instead of a Superdoctrine they get to pick which Doctrine is active each turn instead of having to go through the order of Dev->Tac-Assault

To be fair, Ibris didn't say they don't get them, Ibris said the ones they get are bad.

Breton wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Breton wrote:
I'm kind of surprised more people aren't playing Deathwatch games with Obsec on units that are normally not in addition to being more count limited

Because DW outside of obsec spam is crap?

You're sacrificing doctrines, superdoctrines, ability to take 2 traits, relics, stratagems, etc, etc, for a handful of bad ones that mostly work against xenos only (granted, this is more useful than it was a year ago seeing most xeno armies are now OP but still). If whoever clown who nerfed SIA was given the boot and SIA once again worked for all bolt type weapons, DW would be OK again, as it is, you can make better DW using custom chapter traits and rule combos other chapters can pull. Which is really sad

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Don't Deathwatch have access to all the strats and relics that any Adeptus Astartes models have access to? Where does it say they can't? It's Codex Suppliment: Deathwatch, after all.

They do. They also get Doctrines. It'd be really weird if they didn't since instead of a Superdoctrine they get to pick which Doctrine is active each turn instead of having to go through the order of Dev->Tac-Assault

To be fair, Ibris didn't say they don't get them, Ibris said the ones they get are bad.

Which is also wrong. DW get a couple of really good relics, traits and strats and still have access to all the basic SM ones too. Flexibility in which doctrine to be in is really powerful but the lack of a proper super doctrine is a bit of a problem. DW are also one of the best Dreadnought castle SM chapters, which is pretty good given that's the best way to play regular SM at the moment.

Breton wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Breton wrote:
I'm kind of surprised more people aren't playing Deathwatch games with Obsec on units that are normally not in addition to being more count limited

Because DW outside of obsec spam is crap?

You're sacrificing doctrines, superdoctrines, ability to take 2 traits, relics, stratagems, etc, etc, for a handful of bad ones that mostly work against xenos only (granted, this is more useful than it was a year ago seeing

To be fair, Ibris didn't say they don't get them, Ibris said the ones they get are bad.

No, Ibris said they sacrificed all that stuff to get the DW stuff. The only sacrifices I can tell that DW make is:

No chapter master upgrade allowed
No Assault Squad, Attack Bike Squad, Bike Squad, Devastator Squad, Sternguard Veteran Squad, Tactical Squad, Scout units

And given that the DW basically get better replacements for all of these with minimal taxes (the kill team 'taxes' aren't exactly what I'd call bad). The only thing I'd miss is Devastator squads, though Eradicators do fill that melta niche quite nicely.