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Hey,

As for our background we have been playing tabletop minis for more than 2 decades (still the same opponent mostly!) but never really enjoyed the "hobby" aspect of miniature games (painting,conversions etc.). We no longer paint minis. System that we played the most and for maaany years was WarZone,2d and 3rd edition. As for sth that Might be similiar to Epic we know Warmaster, I hated the fact that ranged weapons do literally nothing and he complained really bad that it happens too often that units don't activate (if you failed leadership test your army could just stand there). As for sth that might relate to BFG I really enjoyed PC version and he played a lot of X-wing FFG. I found X-wing boring as it happened often that ships avoided damage, out of range of all weapons etc. too much maneuvring too little damage. We both truly despise wh40k mechanics. Gave it Multiple tries, different editions but it never clicked as we find it too simplistic and dumb As For a game where you supposedly play with individual models not a representation of large units. But we really like wh40K setting (don't know much about 30K and have no interest/time to investigate).

And here are our questions about BFG and Epic. Please try to respond to at least some of them.


1. Which of those two has better files for 2D minis avalaible? (paper print, like high resolution pictures to make flat counters)
2. Which of those two has better files for 3D minis? (not ordered from a store but files that we send to a 3D printer shop) Which would be cheaper for 3D print?
3. Which one is reworked more by fans? I see that you don't use GW offiial rules but a kind of your own - so which one has more modern concepts implemented?
4. Which system is more suitable for alternate activations? Used as a house rule by us in case if you haven't implemented it already in fan rules.
5. Which system seems to be more complicated?
6. If you have read our background above and might suggest which system we Might like better please write it here.
7. Which one has more balanced factions?

Hi,

1) Don't know about Epic but Battlefleet Gothic has these foldable models:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11wvrRlQqs8hC2yLmYrhdHORdUd7YcnV0?usp=sharing

2) Both have free ones available

3) For Battlefleet Gothic we have the rules hub:
https://www.specialist-arms.com/forum/index.php?topic=5203.0
It has everything official, unofficial, magazines, assets

4) I think Epic. But there is a fanwork BFG2020 (see above link) which has alternate activations

5) Not sure on Epic but BFG isn't really difficult to understand (aside of a couple of things)

The First Battle guide for BFG is a nice starting place:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mKCBY3m7Xf8sZERlLoqcudF6SgdAPN5p/view?usp=sharing

6) Use first battle guide and see if BFG is to your liking.

7) Absolutely no clue on Epic. Official BFG has a fair balance. Except Eldar (either to bad or to strong), for which neat house rules exist. But a lot of people think official are just fine.

 horizon wrote:
Hi,


5) Not sure on Epic but BFG isn't really difficult to understand (aside of a couple of things)

Thanks for you replies!
Just wanted to say that "being complicated" would be a good thing for us. What I mean by that: many different actions, different effective ranges on weapons, each weapon dealing different kind of damage etc. We are used to that. We don't like the fact that GW games tend to be overly simplified and abstract. Of course we get it that one base in both Epic and BFG depicts dozens of soldiers/crew but still the more sophisticated of the two systems would be probably more appealing to us.

As for those proxies that you sent - so much work from the designer side! And so much work required to cut and glue it while we are no longer interested in model making/painting aspect of wargames. So Moktaraz, Kiromonk great work but my eyesight would not allow me to cut those proxies properly. I thought that height of the model does not matter in those 2 systems? (except maybe Titans in Epic). Why not to print just flat counters and cut them out? They are on pinterest but poor resolution Sadly. Am I missing sth that they made those proxies in 3D except nice and easy 2D?

Alternative activations are a must for us. As a person who is heavily into BFG would you say that BFG is better with "I go with everything I have then you"? If yes then it is not for us. Do not want to criticize or sth, we have played a Lot of games and we know that games without alternative activations do not work for us or we like them Much Less.

Heya,

As for complicated: the rules are not but the games offers tactical fun. Its main difference thing is the fact that you have to move every turn. So that is pretty fluid.

I would say look at the fanmade BFG2020 if alternate activations is really your thing:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mZLn3lDip6hy9eSVja7vegl6y_5uQoUT/view?usp=sharing

With the official IgoYougo rules it works fine up to 1500 points. Above you see the issues creep you hint at.
The game was designed for 500-1500.

As for the papermodels or real 3D models. I think there are 2D ones available. Some people in the Discord should have.

But! In BFG the miniatures are really visible interpretation, like those cool 3D viewscreens because all that matters for the rules are the stem (center) and base (32mm small, 60mm big).

So if you make round shapes like that you could already play.

1. Which of those two has better files for 2D minis avalaible? (paper print, like high resolution pictures to make flat counters)
No idea about BFG, but Epic has a Vassel module/40k model so you can make 2D counters easily enough of all the units.

2. Which of those two has better files for 3D minis? (not ordered from a store but files that we send to a 3D printer shop) Which would be cheaper for 3D print?
Epic, its tiny. But numerous. BFG is more intricate but need very few ships. Facebook groups have all the files. Both also have good proxy manufacturers.

3. Which one is reworked more by fans? I see that you don't use GW offiial rules but a kind of your own - so which one has more modern concepts implemented?
Epic. BFG has a remastered edition which collects all of the FAQs and errata into one doc. Epic has multiple new armies. UK tourney games use this http://epic-uk.co.uk/wp/home/, internet uses NetEA (very similar to EpicUK) and the French have again a slightly different set of lists. Also variant for Heresy.

4. Which system is more suitable for alternate activations? Used as a house rule by us in case if you haven't implemented it already in fan rules.
Epic is designed to use AA. BFG has simultaneous stuff from memory.

5. Which system seems to be more complicated?
Neither system is complicated. BFG has a bit more chrome, but because a typical game is only a few ships most doesn't get used. The Epic rules are also very short and army creation stops stupid combo's. Both games are complex to play in terms of planning and executing rather than complicated to learn or remember.

6. If you have read our background above and might suggest which system we Might like better please write it here.
No idea! I prefer combined arms Epic, BFG suffers from only have 2 1/2 fully fleshed out factions, the others suffered in comparison to Imperials and Chaos.

7. Which one has more balanced factions?
EpicUK


Other options

A billion suns for fleet combat
Future War commander for Sci Fi if you like warmaster rules

I'll try and add a few things to what The_Real_Chris has said (rather than repeat). I'll also caveat that I'm not massively involved in BFG so not that aware of the community there.

2. Which of those two has better files for 3D minis? (not ordered from a store but files that we send to a 3D printer shop) Which would be cheaper for 3D print?
Epic 3D file printing has absolutely exploded over recent years, as well as companies making 'proxy' miniatures, so you don't have to pay crazy 2nd-hand eBay prices. There are some links here in this guide you might find useful https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page

3. Which one is reworked more by fans? I see that you don't use GW offiial rules but a kind of your own - so which one has more modern concepts implemented?
Epic has had a lot of re-works in the time since official support stopped. Perhaps because the game itself changed many times when in GW's hands, there are also many new fan versions. NetEpic Gold (or Palladium) is a community-made revision of Epic Space Marine (2nd edition). Imperius Dominatus was made by the same guys and has a Horus Heresy focus, and is more granular. Epic Armageddon is probably the most popular as a tournament game (in the UK at least) and is meant to have a very good balance, as a committee do updates to balance it for tournament play constantly. Epic 40k was the last version made by GW and is meant to be the most streamlined (Jervis Johnson maintains it was the best version of the game he made). It's probably the most 'modern' in that it uses a lot of abstraction and removes play maintenance, but for some reason (perhaps due to least sales when it was released) it seems to be the least popular these days.

4. Which system is more suitable for alternate activations? Used as a house rule by us in case if you haven't implemented it already in fan rules.
The_Real_Chris has already mentioned. Epic was ahead of its time in this regard.

5. Which system seems to be more complicated?
Hmm this is a tough one. I would say with BFG I remember spending a lot of time looking at gunnery charts (if the ships are broadside, forwards or backwards etc.) I quite like this as its like naval wargames, but I think some were put off by it.
Epic varies a lot between versions. I would say Epic 40000 and Armageddon are probably the most streamlined, followed by NetEpic Gold, with original Epic Space Marine and Imperius Dominatus as the most granular.

6. If you have read our background above and might suggest which system we Might like better please write it here.
I guess if you are really into 40k because of the background then Epic probably will give you the closest links. You have the same little guys on the tabletop but just a bit smaller/further away
In some ways Epic does a better job of representing warfare than modern 40k, as you have entire tank companies fighting, marine companies doing aerial insertions, artillery shelling each other, and assaults on fortifications. It feels much more 'epic'!
But then BFG is great too, it is just representing a different aspect of warfare.
I would say neither system are anything like modern 40k.

7. Which one has more balanced factions?
Again my caveat here is that I have played a lot less BFG, but my memory is that there are some really broken imbalances in BFG - I'm not sure if the modern community revisions address this (so someone please feel free to jump in and correct me!)
I remember getting tabled against Eldar constantly, their ships felt hilariously over-powered. And also remember we used to place limits on ordnance (launching fighters/bombers) as the carriers were too powerful in respect to other ship types.
Epic varies a lot. I would say Armageddon is probably the most balanced, as like I said before there is a community that works really hard to keep it suitable for tournament play.
For other versions I would say some armies have broken units, rather than specific armies being very imbalanced.
It also helps that because the games are not currently published, you have a lot less people doing net-lists and trying to break the game (as you have with 40k) so you have a lot more freedom to just explore and choose different army lists.

Hope that helps! I would say honestly there is nothing to stop you playing both. Rules are free online, and you can get 3D files or proxy miniatures pretty cheaply these days (especially BFG, which you can play with just a few ships and still have fun).

 Pacific wrote:


Hope that helps! I would say honestly there is nothing to stop you playing both. Rules are free online, and you can get 3D files or proxy miniatures pretty cheaply these days (especially BFG, which you can play with just a few ships and still have fun).

Thank you all!

But as for what will stop us from playing both it is time and the fact that we are slowly but surely getting old!
We don't intend to play original 90s versions but use all changes that you implemented, we assume that hundreds of hours of collective playtesting and added content from newer games will make it better than whatever GW could invent back in the 90s.So from what I understood the most reworked and updated are BFG 2020 and Epic UK. My friend will take a look which one he likes more as for the rules (if any are suitable for us).

Thanks again to all 3 of you! If he says that we should give one of them a try, I'll be back here with some more questions.

BFG remastered rules (and originals) here
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wZMEK2NGKfdnNo1b-iEHovsG7KqDgdBq?usp=sharing

No problem at all Soleil, hope you have fun with it whichever you decide to do, and please make sure you report back with your observations!

 Pacific wrote:
No problem at all Soleil, hope you have fun with it whichever you decide to do, and please make sure you report back with your observations!

Now it is up to him. He will decide whether any of those two will be good for us.
Giving it a try still requires plenty of effort.

I might have added in the background that we highly, HIGHLY prefer Xenos&Chaos to IG/AM&SM*. From 2D counters that I found human factions are sadly better represented.
*Maybe one notable exception of BA, they are cool.
And how did BFG&Epic get around the ridicolous idea that each legit SM chapter is 1000 brothers only? How many troops each infantry base represent in Epic? As for BFG do they hire outsiders as crew on their ships?

They have servitors running most things on the ship. And those who didn't make it into being a space marine.

Soleil wrote:

 Pacific wrote:


Hope that helps! I would say honestly there is nothing to stop you playing both. Rules are free online, and you can get 3D files or proxy miniatures pretty cheaply these days (especially BFG, which you can play with just a few ships and still have fun).

Thank you all!

But as for what will stop us from playing both it is time and the fact that we are slowly but surely getting old!
We don't intend to play original 90s versions but use all changes that you implemented, we assume that hundreds of hours of collective playtesting and added content from newer games will make it better than whatever GW could invent back in the 90s.So from what I understood the most reworked and updated are BFG 2020 and Epic UK. My friend will take a look which one he likes more as for the rules (if any are suitable for us).

Thanks again to all 3 of you! If he says that we should give one of them a try, I'll be back here with some more questions.

It is actually more a matter of preference. the final official 2010 update was a great improvement in the game in terms of optional ships and themed fleets however the fan made changes i do not agree with at all. the fleet design was thematic to operate inside the 40K setting. that means certain fleets were designed to be better at certain styles of combat than others and outside of campaigns that have severe restrictions on repair and experience especially for necron fleets. you have to learn to play with the strengths and weaknesses of each fleet. the vast number of scenarios also helps mitigate what some would consider an advantage. i particularly enjoy the move/shoot/move/ordinance activation sequence of the craftworld/corsair eldar fleets even though i do not play them (but i do fight them). It is how the eldar would fight and is the core of how their fleet design and equipment work around it. the fan changes to make them move like every other fleet diminishes them and is out of place in the setting.

As far as minis go the main places you can go are scourge scenics (for both STL files and minis they also have many epic scale minis) for most ships, however they do not sell all of the fleets or the small craft tokens (bombers/fighters/assault craft/torpedo markers, blast markers etc.. that can be found on shapeways at pastichet shipyards. but you need to shop around there as to the quality and designs of the prints. basic versatile white plastics is really cheap but does not have the detail of the more expensive fine clear resins. they also have custom designs like chaos cruisers with giant symbols of the gods on the hulls.

https://www.scourgescenics.co.uk/shop

https://www.shapeways.com/shops/vayrout-space-harbor?li=pb

The other places i recommend for epic scale minis that you can buy (not STLs) are

vanguard miniatures (they have a dedicated thread here on dakka) and onslaught miniatures,

https://vanguardminiatures.co.uk/

https://www.onslaughtmini.com/

horizon wrote:They have servitors running most things on the ship. And those who didn't make it into being a space marine.

Indeed, a strike cruiser may only have a single squad of battle brothers on it but it can carry up to an entire company when needed...not much considering it is 4K long.

And how did BFG&Epic get around the ridicolous idea that each legit SM chapter is 1000 brothers only? How many troops each infantry base represent in Epic? As for BFG do they hire outsiders as crew on their ships?

So Epic is a battalion level game. A marine army might consist of around 50 or so troops, 5 to a stand, 10-15 armoured vehicles, aircraft, spaceship and 1-2 warhounds.

You would be looking to use the spaceship to bombard one turn and give you the option of drop podding (swap Rhino's for drop pods). Thunderhawks/landing craft would deliver and extract troops to and from the table and terminators can teleport in. Personally I like to hit one side of the board with terminators and other support, then extract via thunderhawk and attack again with them via air assault turn 2.

Conversely a steel legion force of the same points would have around 250 men, 20-30 armour, perhaps a dozen light vehicles, maybe a titan. And struggle against the Marines.

Some sample army lists from past tourneys here.
http://epic-uk.co.uk/ukepicachampionship/albyr.php

BFG wise the fleet engagement scenario is supposed to be rare (and something marines aren't supposed to win). Instead raids and smll actions with a half dozen ships per side. The Marine ships are crewed by serfs with the marines used for boarding and planetary assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aphyon wrote:

It is actually more a matter of preference. the final official 2010 update was a great improvement in the game in terms of optional ships and themed fleets however the fan made changes i do not agree with at all.

Just the Eldar changes or others as well?

There were other minor tweaks, you can compare them with the links given.

Some of our 2k BFG games

chaos (tzeench) VS necrons



Imperial navy VS chaos






On the matter of epic 40K as optional rules our group enjoys using index 8th ed 40K-we just halve all ranges for weapons and movement. the streamlined index rules and the limit of the same 3 stratagems available to all factions makes the game relatively fast. the original army detachment rules also make list building at that scale quite easy. we generally play PL games that equal 5-10K points.


the games look like so-

space marines VS tau



DKOK VS Iyanden craftworld

Hey again,

I owe you a follow up!

So, he was Not impressed with both rulesets. As he said you can only do that much when you try to upgrade sth which should get a completely new version ( like a tank or a jet - you can improve an old build only to a point despite best efforts).

But as we might not live long enough to Finally see new editions of those two he agreed that he can test BFG using his SW Armada Rebel fleet (additionaly he has some other small scale spaceship models I guess Dropfleet) as proxies of Empire fleet.

So my 2 questions would be:

1. Is BFG 2020 the only version of BFG with alternate activations?
2. Is there somebody who might have printable 2D files of good quality/high resolution proxies in appropriate size (flat ones, just to print on photo paper and cut out)? My favorite factions are: Khorne, Dark Eldar, Space Orks and Necron.

1. In Warp Rift someone made up rules for simultaneous movement.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n15iOWn9U_bQfTmPdYfzS4TWgyZmXF2t/view?usp=sharing

2. Dunno. But as written. The stem and base count. So a round paper with firearcs and a header will be sufficient for the rules. A 2d print will make it actually trickier.

 horizon wrote:
1. In Warp Rift someone made up rules for simultaneous movement.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n15iOWn9U_bQfTmPdYfzS4TWgyZmXF2t/view?usp=sharing

2. Dunno. But as written. The stem and base count. So a round paper with firearcs and a header will be sufficient for the rules. A 2d print will make it actually trickier.

Why trickier? Should be easier to operate as we would not need to care about the ship size (only for the base).

What do you think? Of course I would need to change the background (somehow?) to white in order Not to kill the printer.
https://pl.pinterest.com/pin/763008361839742137/

And what if we take any BFG ruleset and take turns with ships alternatively? So move, shoot etc. with my ship No1 and then my oponent moves, shoots etc. with first ship of his choice, then my 2d ship and so on.

Should work.

 horizon wrote:
Should work.

what should work "our altenrate activations" or those Necron paper models that I linked?

Above you have mentioned some discord channel to ask for proxies?

And as for your opinion on which BFG edition we should try what exactly do you recommend? Taking into the account that we want it to feel "modern".

I meant the activations. Only attack craft needs some twiddling.

Discord:
https://discord.gg/X9HxfjVX

 horizon wrote:
I meant the activations. Only attack craft needs some twiddling.

Discord:
https://discord.gg/X9HxfjVX

Ok registered and asked.

Soleil wrote:

 horizon wrote:
Should work.

what should work "our altenrate activations" or those Necron paper models that I linked?

Another 'alternative activations' method which is fun is alternate the movement phase (one side moves, the other side moves). Then do simultaneous fire phase (ships all get to fire regardless of whether or not they die or go on special orders).