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AZ

Did they leave? Is the air contested by chaos? Why hasn’t the Imperium retaken Most of Vigilus with their space fleets?



 
   
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usmcmidn wrote:
Did they leave?

No, the Imperial fleet just dispersed to the wider Nachmund Gauntlet.

Is the air contested by chaos?

Air, no. Nachmund Gauntlet, yes. The Red Corsairs in particular have many raiding fleets praying on Imperial vessels and convoys seeking safe harbour in the Gauntlet.

Why hasn’t the Imperium retaken Most of Vigilus with their space fleets?

Because those fleets are worthless in a war that involves purging Hive-sprawls of Genestealer Cults, the forces of Chaos, Nurglite infections, and the planetwide Ork infestation. That fleet also still has to contest with the remaining Chaos ships that frequently raid and harass the Imperial lines as well as potential Ork reinforcements looking for a good scrap.
The Imperium needs Vigilus as the lynchpin of the Nachmund Gauntlet, it can't just Exterminatus the masses of resources, industry, population and what is now an important religious center.
   
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 Gert wrote:
usmcmidn wrote:
Did they leave?

No, the Imperial fleet just dispersed to the wider Nachmund Gauntlet.

Is the air contested by chaos?

Air, no. Nachmund Gauntlet, yes. The Red Corsairs in particular have many raiding fleets praying on Imperial vessels and convoys seeking safe harbour in the Gauntlet.

Why hasn’t the Imperium retaken Most of Vigilus with their space fleets?

Because those fleets are worthless in a war that involves purging Hive-sprawls of Genestealer Cults, the forces of Chaos, Nurglite infections, and the planetwide Ork infestation. That fleet also still has to contest with the remaining Chaos ships that frequently raid and harass the Imperial lines as well as potential Ork reinforcements looking for a good scrap.
The Imperium needs Vigilus as the lynchpin of the Nachmund Gauntlet, it can't just Exterminatus the masses of resources, industry, population and what is now an important religious center.

Void ships don't just perform Exterminatus and they could certainly provide immense artillery support to the Imperial forces, particularly in destroying enemy troop concentrations and movements outside the hives. In addition, we know Imperial ships are capable of precision roughly equivalent to groundside artillery in support of surface troops, at least with the smaller weapons onboard. The fact the Navy/Astartes fleets are not providing artillery support suggests the Vigilus system and wider Nachmund Gauntlet are heavily contested by enemy void ships.

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Literally said there were still Chaos and Ork ships cutting about.
   
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 Haighus wrote:

Void ships don't just perform Exterminatus and they could certainly provide immense artillery support to the Imperial forces, particularly in destroying enemy troop concentrations and movements outside the hives. In addition, we know Imperial ships are capable of precision roughly equivalent to groundside artillery in support of surface troops, at least with the smaller weapons onboard. The fact the Navy/Astartes fleets are not providing artillery support suggests the Vigilus system and wider Nachmund Gauntlet are heavily contested by enemy void ships.

Question(s) from someone who hasn't followed the Vigilus story. Is it confirmed that they aren't chipping in with occasional bombardments? I can see the usefulness of orbital bombardments being limited by not wanting to damage the infrastructure or by the enemy being hard to pinpoint and target or by Vigilus's structure basically serving as a big fort that protects anyone a few levels under the surface. Is it possible that orbital strikes happen but are just limited in usefulness?


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There aren't many places where orbital bombardment is useful. The main battle zones of Vigilus are its Hive cities, which for obvious reasons can't just be levelled from orbit. The only other potential target is the Ork stronghold but it's also massive and would take a serious beating, likely doing immense damage to the planet itself just to destroy it. Its also an Ork stronghold, nuking them from orbit doesn't mean they're all dead and within a few weeks they'd be up and running there or somewhere else.
   
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The biggest issue is GW writers themselves. They try to avoid naval ships as much as possible, such as:

- This planet is protected by void shields.
- This planet has too many surface to void weapons.
- The fleet is required elsewhere, you’re on your own.

GW wrote themselves into a corner by making their navy vessels so grandiose and powerful. When a lance strike can evaporate oceans and macro strikes can level mountains, entire wars could simply be ended with a strategic strike into the enemies stronghold.

It’s the same thing here. Vigilus is supposed to be the “most important place in the Imperium” with one of the only stable routes through the Great Rift. This area should have one of the largest fleets posted to it, second only to Terra and Mars themselves. There should be constant, literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of Imperial merchant vessels passing through this area of space daily.

It’s actually kind of a joke how bad this story is considering it’s importance in the setting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/01 01:12:18


 
   
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Jarms48 wrote:

Vigilus is supposed to be the “most important place in the Imperium” with one of the only stable routes through the Great Rift. This area should have one of the largest fleets posted to it, second only to Terra and Mars themselves. There should be constant, literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of Imperial merchant vessels passing through this area of space daily.

It’s actually kind of a joke how bad this story is considering it’s importance in the setting.


It pretty much only exists in this state so GW can use it as a marketing tool for the 40k line. It's a theme for Campaign books, Kill Team, and, for whatever reason, the latest Chapter Approved.
   
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Jarms48 wrote:
The biggest issue is GW writers themselves. They try to avoid naval ships as much as possible, such as:

- This planet is protected by void shields.
- This planet has too many surface to void weapons.
- The fleet is required elsewhere, you’re on your own.

GW wrote themselves into a corner by making their navy vessels so grandiose and powerful. When a lance strike can evaporate oceans and macro strikes can level mountains, entire wars could simply be ended with a strategic strike into the enemies stronghold.

I mean it perfectly fits with how a navy should be used though. An interstellar navy should be used for primarily carrier support, which is what the Imperial Navy does. The Imperium doesn't like losing planets, it does all the time but it doesn't like it, so using the ocean boiling weapons as a tactical weapon isn't exactly something that gets people promoted, especially on valuable assets like Hive Cities or water/food sources. Buildings can be rebuilt if they're hit by a tank shell, they can't if they've been atomised by a Lance strike. It is also not a sure way to guarantee a kill in 40k, especially against foes such as the Orks or Genestealer Cults. Nice job you glassed the surface of the planet, but you didn't do any real damage to the hundreds of miles of underground mines, tunnels, and dwellings, now you have to go in and clear them out while the surface of the planet is massively irradiated and you have no infrastructure to support an invasion. Calth and Tallarn are perfect examples of this tactic in action and both were significant losses and mistakes from both a tactical and strategic perspective (although the intention behind Calth was to root out supreme Ultra-haters within the WB ranks and it was orchestrated by Erebus so YMMV).

It’s the same thing here. Vigilus is supposed to be the “most important place in the Imperium” with one of the only stable routes through the Great Rift. This area should have one of the largest fleets posted to it, second only to Terra and Mars themselves. There should be constant, literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of Imperial merchant vessels passing through this area of space daily.

It’s actually kind of a joke how bad this story is considering it’s importance in the setting.

It did have a large fleet, then the Orks showed up, then Abbadon showed up with the Vengeful Spirit, 12 more Battleships, roughly 34 Cruiser squadrons (which are usually at least 3 ships strong bringing us to 102 Cruisers), and roughly 84 Escort squadrons (which are about 4 ships strong on average bringing us to 336 Escorts). The fleet that protected Vigilus then had to be spread out to defend the wider Nachmund Gauntlet, which btw is on the wrong side of the Rift in Imperium Nihilus, with reinforcements trickling in from fleets and strike forces scattered by the opening of the Rift.
   
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Jarms48 wrote:
GW wrote themselves into a corner by making their navy vessels so grandiose and powerful. When a lance strike can evaporate oceans and macro strikes can level mountains, entire wars could simply be ended with a strategic strike into the enemies stronghold.

Eh, the problem is, Imperium wants to win wars, not battles. Glassing planet from orbit is a bad option as A) habitable planets are rare so IoM can't really afford to make them less habitable or lose them outright in aftermatch even though they won the campaign, B) there is also ancient infrastructure to consider which in a lot of cases simply cannot be rebuild and you lose that in bombardment too. It's often better to send in IG because infantry regiment can be replaced, relic atmosphere purifier or maglev network from M30 is gone as soon as you mess with it.

Dawn of War 2 even has a few good examples, Blood Raven recruiting world has a lot less population and critical infrastructure than most Imperial worlds and even then SM are reluctant to just bomb it to death because they rely on steady supply of good recruits (even though they have other sources, having one exclusive to chapter no one can deny them is critical). They also respond to distress calls of orks attacking old communication outposts and transport networks because as valuable as SM are, archeotech is far more precious and limited.
   
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Epic featured tactical lance strikes as orbital support. If you were facing a couple of Stompas, that was a pretty sound way to take them out, and in-lore it's not something with sea-boiling side effects either.

Yeah, maybe they have good reason to not want to perform total strategic bombardment, but the lack of tactical space support is authorial fiat because they want to write stories about sword duels, not total war.

   
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 catbarf wrote:
Epic featured tactical lance strikes as orbital support. If you were facing a couple of Stompas, that was a pretty sound way to take them out, and in-lore it's not something with sea-boiling side effects either.

Yeah, maybe they have good reason to not want to perform total strategic bombardment, but the lack of tactical space support is authorial fiat because they want to write stories about sword duels, not total war.


However, lore ALSO states that they require exact targeting data or beacons to be even able to attempt such strategic orbital strikes without inflicting massive collateral damage.

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Something else to remember - the Imperium isn't a combine arms force. The Army and Navy/Airforce are separate to prevent rebellion and coup. I would imagine getting support from one for the other isn't a matter of calling it in but negotiations at the highest level for a ship to divert from the glorious business of shooting enemy ships and get into the grubby business of fancy artillery support.

Could even by why marines have such outsized impact as are synchronised between fleet and ground ops.
   
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The_Real_Chris wrote:
Something else to remember - the Imperium isn't a combine arms force.


This is so laughably untrue. The very nature of the Imperium is that the Imperial Navy and Astra Militarum are closely linked to each other in theater. Guard Commanders request and receive Navy fighter support(Vultures, Vendettas, and Valkyries are technically Naval assets piloted by Naval crew) all the time and Naval vessels are constantly pulled from fleets to escort Naval transports full of Guard. The very nature of how Militarum regiments are organized is dependent on a combined arms approach. And that isn't even counting that the average Imperial Crusade is comprised of a mixed bag of Naval, Militarum, Astartes, Sororitas, etc. forces all being wrangled by the bloated beast that is the Administratum.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/04/01 15:22:01


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 Platuan4th wrote:
This is so laughably untrue. The very nature of the Imperium is that the Imperial Navy and Astra Militarum are closely linked to each other in theater. Guard Commanders request and receive Navy fighter support(Vultures, Vendettas, and Valkyries are technically Naval assets piloted by Naval crew) all the time and Naval vessels are constantly pulled from fleets to escort Naval transports full of Guard. The very nature of how Militarum regiments are organized is dependent on a combined arms approach. And that isn't even counting that the average Imperial Crusade is comprised of a mixed bag of Naval, Militarum, Astartes, Sororitas, etc. forces all being wrangled by the bloated beast that is the Administratum.

The Navy and the Guard are close but they are still very distinct entities with their own goals and operational quibbles. A Guard commander can request that the Navy lend air support to planetary engagements but the Navy is under no obligation to provide that request. Indeed a Navy officer might instead decide that their fighters and gunships are too valuable to waste in the theatre entirely and only provide the logistical support of ferrying troops and supplies from orbit. Just because a Guard platoon might benefit from some air cover, doesn't mean the Navy will give it to them.
The Navy views the Guard as idiot mudscuffers, good for nothing but dying in droves and the Guard views the Navy as overdressed and overconfident rich kids with no real backbone. The two institutions despise one another but rely on each other to keep Imperial military operations running.
Just because the Navy protects convoys and the Guard protects the planets the Navy needs to build its ships and recruit its crews, doesn't mean that either is beholden to the other when it comes to warfare.
   
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The Imperium's Taros campaign shows how the Imperial Navy and Guard can pursue their own objectives to the detriment of the other. The Imperial Navy was escorting water tankers for the Guard troops on the desert planet. However when the Tau fleet started raiding the convoys, the Imperial Navy took off in pursuit, ostensibly to take the fight to the enemy, but really for the sake of glory as they were temped by the Tau's Custodian class battleship sized carrier. Although they were ultimately successful in bringing down the Custodian, albeit at some cost to themselves, they left the water convoys open and during this time, a second Tau force of lighter ships hit the tankers. The Custodian had been bait all along. The resulting water shortage was a primary factor in why the ground forces lost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/01 21:51:54


 
   
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 Platuan4th wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
Something else to remember - the Imperium isn't a combine arms force.


This is so laughably untrue. The very nature of the Imperium is that the Imperial Navy and Astra Militarum are closely linked to each other in theater. Guard Commanders request and receive Navy fighter support(Vultures, Vendettas, and Valkyries are technically Naval assets piloted by Naval crew) all the time and Naval vessels are constantly pulled from fleets to escort Naval transports full of Guard. The very nature of how Militarum regiments are organized is dependent on a combined arms approach. And that isn't even counting that the average Imperial Crusade is comprised of a mixed bag of Naval, Militarum, Astartes, Sororitas, etc. forces all being wrangled by the bloated beast that is the Administratum.


So it is fair to say you don't know what a combined arms force is in this context. To give you an idea, India is currently trying to make a combined arms force. It has recognised the structure of largely independent Army/Navy/Airforce is not going to cut it in the face of Chinese reforms. A recent example of this is the airforce strike in Pakistan. The army had no idea this was happening and if things had escalated would have been far behind in getting to a combat footing. I doubt you would have said that the Indian army wasn't combined arms. However the international assessment and now the national assessment is they are not.

You get the tactical level combined arms set of stuff. Armour, infantry, artillery and air force operating together. This is hard. Witness the Russians failing to do this. Then you have the operational level of working together. Joint command structures. Being able to order assets belonging to a different branch and arrange them in a mutually supporting manner in theatre. And then your strategic and so on. The imperium is a caricature of the worst versions of independent arms of the military.
   
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Jarms48 wrote:
The biggest issue is GW writers themselves. They try to avoid naval ships as much as possible, such as:

- This planet is protected by void shields.
- This planet has too many surface to void weapons.
- The fleet is required elsewhere, you’re on your own.

GW wrote themselves into a corner by making their navy vessels so grandiose and powerful. When a lance strike can evaporate oceans and macro strikes can level mountains, entire wars could simply be ended with a strategic strike into the enemies stronghold.

It’s the same thing here. Vigilus is supposed to be the “most important place in the Imperium” with one of the only stable routes through the Great Rift. This area should have one of the largest fleets posted to it, second only to Terra and Mars themselves. There should be constant, literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of Imperial merchant vessels passing through this area of space daily.

It’s actually kind of a joke how bad this story is considering it’s importance in the setting.


I have always hated this about GW writing. This is my theory too. The Orks would easily be handled by orbital bombardments. They are in the ash wastes right? Who cares if some sand is killed along with the Orks.... If Vigilus was so important there would certainly be a fleet protecting it, I mean arguably one of the most important planets. I just don't like the excuse the fleet is needed elsewhere. Maybe the void shield thing.... ok. Maybe the orbit is contested, but do they have a fleet that can directly take on a large imperial fleet and for an extended time? The logistics for chaos would be a nightmare in on itself. Once the void battle dies down why wouldn't the navy go in direct support of ground forces.... I wish it was explained more....

But hey, maybe when we get a return of BFG for tabletop we will have some more lore? ? ?



 
   
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This was always my thought about Cadia. How is it possible that Cadia was "invaded" so many times by ground troops, when there are entire Naval Fleets surrounding it in orbit?
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This was always my thought about Cadia. How is it possible that Cadia was "invaded" so many times by ground troops, when there are entire Naval Fleets surrounding it in orbit?

Because ships get damaged and have to retreat.
   
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Orbital weapons that can shatter mountains and boil seas are just the kind of weapons you DON'T want to use on a planet that you actually want to retain some kind of control and use over. When you start playing with weapons of that magnitude on a planetary scale its not too hard to suddenly destroy the atmosphere or the ground stability or the habitability of the world in question.

Or end up destroying vast amounts of infrastructure. Keeping in mind that whilst the Imperium has vast wealth of resources, their attitude toward technology is such that losing some key buildings and machines could mean they are lost for good and can never be replaced. OR the only replacement is on the other side of the Galaxy.


When you've got a vast abundance of fighters and a vast ground war-engine its much more efficient to simply throw that into the meat-grinder than it is to obliterate the land from space.



The Imperium always has this duality that at the large scale it can lose whole worlds; whole systems and not suffer as a whole. However the other side of the coin is that local powers do notice and they do care. If the navy flies in and blasts every world you can bet that those in charge of the systems in that region are going to start putting political pressure or even military pressure on the navy to stop bombarding and sending their worlds into radioactive wastelands. They'd rather throw millions of lives into the meat grinder than lose their manufacturing facilities entirely; or lose a huge ocean that happens to be farmed to provided protein for food production.



I do agree that many times the writing can end up creating holes in itself because of the scale; or the numbers or because everything is hyper awesome and powerful. However its little different to how every super hero ends up fighting evil powers that get more and more powerful each time to the point where soon they have gone from stopping a bank robbery to saving all of reality across multiple dimensions.



As for logistical nightmares, that's part of the setting. The Imperium is a hotbed of logistical and administration nightmares. Heck the lore for Tau is that the Imperium "lost" the reference to the world in the sea of paperwork.

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 Overread wrote:

The Imperium always has this duality that at the large scale it can lose whole worlds; whole systems and not suffer as a whole. However the other side of the coin is that local powers do notice and they do care. If the navy flies in and blasts every world you can bet that those in charge of the systems in that region are going to start putting political pressure or even military pressure on the navy to stop bombarding and sending their worlds into radioactive wastelands. They'd rather throw millions of lives into the meat grinder than lose their manufacturing facilities entirely; or lose a huge ocean that happens to be farmed to provided protein for food production.


Gav Thorpe once wrote years ago on another forum that the Imperium is basically a mutual defense pact at its heart. Imperial worlds are oases of human civilization linked together by warp routes. The local Imperial governor pays tithes in the expectation that in crisis the Imperium will support them in defending or retaking their worlds. Exterminatus is rarer than stories make it out to be, because stories naturally focus more on the dramatic exceptions. If the first Imperial response is to immediately glass a world, with no attempt to save it or retake it, then once word gets out, more and more worlds will question why they pay tithes and bend the knee if the promised protection is a lie. Word would still get out as the Imperium is not airtight in terms of information, though it would like to pretend otherwise.
   
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 Overread wrote:
Orbital weapons that can shatter mountains and boil seas are just the kind of weapons you DON'T want to use on a planet that you actually want to retain some kind of control and use over. When you start playing with weapons of that magnitude on a planetary scale its not too hard to suddenly destroy the atmosphere or the ground stability or the habitability of the world in question.



I just don't buy this. There are smaller weapons on ships that can be used as artillery support/orbital bombardment/ naval gunfire support etc...

I am not saying drop a nuclear device on a planet but shooting a lance on a target or something similar that is directed by some dude on the ground, we know guard have guys who specialize in this and Astartes would as well.

As for the scales of the weapons being able to level mountains, they likely have weapons like these but I doubt every weapon does this.... I am just skeptical. GW literally says a squad of Astartes can take on a whole planet, but in the novels, time and time again a single guardsman has taken out Astartes. Most recently in Volpone Gory a single guardsman takes out a Chaos Dark Apostle. We all know GW doesn't know scale and over exaggerates.



 
   
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A strike using ship-grade weapons is very much a last resort kind of weapon. Orbital support comes from bombers or fighters and only if things are really bad is somebody calling for bombardment cannons or Lances.
A torpedo volley is the kind of thing that cracks a continent and multiple Lance strikes can boil oceans. When we move onto things like Nova cannons or Cyclonic torpedos we're getting close to Exterminatus grade weapons.
Anything small such as defence turrets are worthless.
   
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Precision* orbital bombardments firing munitions on a scale comparable to the largest planetside artillery has been an option in so many GW games set in the 30k/40k universe** that we have to assume the Navy routinely is able to do orbital bombardments without leveling whole continents or boiling entire oceans. The Astartes explicitly are capable of this (bombardment cannon are designed to support orbital assaults, not commit exterminatus- it is expected that a Space Marine drop insertion is accompanied by bombardment cannons targeting strongpoints), it just so happens one of their munitions is Space Marines... I am sure the apocalyptic stuff happens too, but that would involve firing the full broadsides of capital ships with the intent to maximise firepower.

There is clearly going to be a sliding scale here- the greater the benefits in wiping out enemy troop concentrations, the more deleterious the effects on the wider planetary environment.

*To the point of fairly reliably hitting a platoon-sized formation or a fortification.

**The Apocalypse expansions, Planetstrike expansion, Space Marine Chapter Masters, the bombardments available to Inquisition forces come to mind off-hand. I think they were available in Epic too, and the old Preliminary Bombardment rules could represent salvos of barrage bombs. May as well throw in the Dawn of War orbital bombardment ability.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/08/05 15:21:24


 ChargerIIC wrote:
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Yep In general we tend to see Orbital Bombardment as being similar as land/sea based bombardment. It's used in conjunction with supporting ground troops securing facilities and regions of land. Often with ground forces calling strikes to likely aid in accuracy of the shots over those vast distances.

You use the orbital guns to break the wall of a fortress or take out a key artillery battery and such to enable your ground forces to move in to secure the land and facilities and whatever it is you are fighting over.



Orbital alone isn't enough because to wipe out your enemy you have to destroy far too much. Even with weaker orbital weapons. Plus you've got legions of troops and tanks to use, so you use them instead.



Also I think its important to realise that even with the vast size of Imperial warships, actually blockading a whole world to the point where you can't get anything past the blockade requires an insane amount of ships and space control. Yes the Imperium could do it, but the number of ships required is likely so many that it would leave them vulnerable on so many fronts to raiding or invasion attacks there. Ergo yes you could blockade defend one world, but you're sacrificing a lot of others to do that.

So you establish a defensive formation that lets you block the bulk of the enemy; that lets you keep their most heavy transports from getting through. Whilst ground forces are there to deal with those that do break past.



Plus that's assuming you're not fighting Chaos or Genestealer who already infiltrated and are rising up on the ground from your existing population (or are using the chaos of an ork invasion to, also, rise up and cause trouble).



I think the only race that can blockade a world without it hindering them are Tyranids and they specifically don't hold multiple worlds. They invade, feed and move on. So they can have all their eggs in one basket around one world for a hive fleet and it works to their advantage.

In fact lore wise I think they are only holding onto one "world"

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Plus, orbital countermeasures are widespread and effective, making planetary assaults risky affairs, except against primitive worlds, which limits the ability to sit in orbit and pound worlds.

Ground-based void shields, defense lasers, surface-to-void missile silos are difficult to take out from orbit as they generally are well powered and well protected. Attacking forces usually only have these if they have seized them from defenders, but we know Orks have used various strategies to set up powerful forward bases of their own on worlds they are assaulting. These likely include equivalent power shields and anti-orbit weapons to fend off enemy naval units. Landed Roks are the most obvious example, but teleported defenses or even just constructed in situ are other options. I would not be surprised if specialised Gargants capable of anti-orbital fire exist either.

These don't negate orbital bombardments, but make them far more risky and ineffective. Battle barges as a distinct class of ship specifically evolved to fill the niche of trading shots with ground defences with a lower risk of being crippled doing so. Even so, they often have to make fly-by passes rather than staying in orbit.

So orbital bombardments are incredibly powerful and useful assets to a ground commander, but they also have a variety of limits to their use that stop them being all-powerful, unless Exterminatus (or alien equivalent) is sanctioned.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
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Is there still a model in the Guard "Officer of the Fleet" or something, that can call down naval strikes as an ability? I remember it being rather, pathetic considering what it was actually capable of...
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Is there still a model in the Guard "Officer of the Fleet" or something, that can call down naval strikes as an ability? I remember it being rather, pathetic considering what it was actually capable of...

There is, and it calls in airstrikes from its current rules, not orbital bombardments. Aircraft are generally under the control of the Imperial Navy.

The Officer of the Fleet calls in something like a bomb drop or strafing run.

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The Cain series has multiple instances of precision orbital lance strikes.

Spoiler:

The Sister's of Battle base is sheared off from it's plateau by a lance strike on Pererimunda.

The forces of chaos use a lance strike to take out the PDF HQ during the second siege of Perlia (part of the 13th Black Crusade).

Less precision, but lance batteries are also used against the clumps of Tyranids on the desert lowlands of Pererimunda as well)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/06 17:37:58


 
   
 
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