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Hi All,
Thought I would start a thread on the topic of how old units can be affected by new rules.
It seems to affect more FW models than GW (as they don't seem to update the units when the codex or FAQs are released as I would expect).

The example I was looking at is that now Valenir has release there new Tau Orca on Cults 3D, there may be a bit of conflict in rules.
I have always loved the Tau Orca unit (more than the Tau Manta, which also suffers from this), I don't know why, I just like it.

In 9th edition the Orca is a lord of war transporter (like the manta), it has a few guns but nobody really cares about them.
The key issue here is that the Orca was released before the latest Tau 9th edition codex, with the change in keywords for units (and as mentioned FW does not update the units that I can find). It has a transport capacity of;
24 Tau empire infantry.
8 Tau empire drones.
AND one of the following;
6 battlesuits (any model with a wounds 9 or less) (It explicitly states that XV88 broadside battlesuits count as 2 models space).
24 additional Tau empire infantry or Tau empire drones.

So as you can obviously see where this is going. The new 9th Tau codex has crisis suits, crisis body guard suits and broadsides as a keyword infantry (as well as battlesuit). But the same applies to stealth suits.
I was no way going to say that it can hold 48 crisis suits but think it does need clarification

The previous 8th edition Tau codex had the Orca as a flyer (not lord of war) and had a much clearer explanation of the transport capacity.
Up to 65 Tau empire infantry (including drones).
It can also transport XV8 Crisis Battlesuits (but each takes the space of two other models).

In 9th edition. I was thinking that the clarification should be
24 Tau empire infantry (excluding keywords Broadside or Crisis) (Stealth battlesuits and Aunva count as 2 models space) (just because Aunva insists in floating his fat a$$ around the battle field in a floaty throne).
8 Tau empire drones.
AND one of the following;
6 battlesuits (with keywords Broadside or Crisis or Commander) (XV88 broadside battlesuits count as 2 models space).
24 additional Tau empire infantry or Tau empire drones.

Clarifying that the battlesuits slot counts only towards crisis and broadsides battlesuits, and that stealth battlesuits count as infantry (but bigger).

I was thinking I could then get the transport capacity like:
10 Pathfinders / Strike Team / Breacher Team.
6 Stealth suits.
1 Darkstrider / Cadre Fireblade .
1 Ethereal.
(that's 24 infantry)
2X 2 DX4 Technical Drones.
(that's 4 of the 8 drones, leaving 4 drones for other units)
5 XV8 crisis body guards.
1 Commander in Battlesuit
(that's 6 battle suits)

Does this sound right?
Or should I be calculating numbers differently.
Should stealth suits be 1 or 2 infantry?

If you’re playing with FW models you need to be playing reasonable people; as you’ve discovered oddities happen when GW forget what rules they wrote for FW.

Given you’re on about rewriting the rules to fit the new Codex, you’re into a space where you’ll need to agree with your opponent anyway. And I’m sure they’d prefer not transporting a multitude of Crisis Suits anyway haha.

Seems like you’re trying to adapt it sensibly but brace for daft answers in here because “the RAW says” even though as you’ve noted the rules were written before the 9th changes.

The main problem you have is that the Orca is no longer made by FW, so the rules have moved to Legends. They will never update them, so your suggested fixes are the only way you can update them. They won’t suddenly put the rules back in the FW Index because someone made an STL!

If you want to avoid negotiations then don’t print an Orca and pick a unit in the current FW book that does get support/FAQ updates.

FW rules change when FW rules change not when the codex rules change.

Sometimes this works favourably for the forge world unit

Sometimes it works against it

The old wording stands until it is FAQ'd or updated

If it is a legends model then like many legends left with nonfunctional rules such as taddeus the purifier it just sucks

Although from a competitive standpoint. Most events just ban legends anyway

I think you are overthinking this. The only thing that needs to be noted is that anything with the Battlesuit keyword goes under Battlesuit capacity not Infantry capacity. Do that and the rules work perfectly fine as written.

Yes it is annoying that FW don't align or come anywhere close for basic things like that.
I had not noticed that the orca dropped into legacy unit (but the DX4 Technical Drones have been for a while) so these rules wont change.

 alextroy wrote:
anything with the Battlesuit keyword goes under Battlesuit capacity not Infantry capacity.

In that case the XV25 and XV15 stealth battlesuits count as battlesuits capacity
Where as in the past the orca could count the stealth suits as infantry (as I understood) so it seems wrong that now it does not?
The older rules for the unit were much clearer
(again past was 65 infantry or drones. It can also transport XV8 Battlesuit which counts as two).

I could just as easily pick the opposite in your statement to say the same (with no grounding or reason stated):
anything with the Infantry keyword goes under Infantry capacity not Battlesuit capacity.
(but as I dont have 48 crisis suits and dont know anyone who does and cant even begin to imagine the points / £$ cost of that I dont think that is a large concern)

I think that FW just made a woopsy and forgot that stealth suits have both Infantry and Battlesuit which makes this rule a little odd / fuzzy.

When I compare it to the devilfish rule, it states no battlesuit and only 12 infantry or drones + a recon drone. So it is fairly cut and dry.
I would normally say that therefore infantry is infantry and anything with battlesuit is battlesuit, Except again the old rule for the orca did not make that clarification and the new rule is vague / open to interpretation.

The difference between the two is 3 devilfish are 285 points, holds 36 infantry / drones and has 39 wounds (it also has more shooty and stratagems etc to use with it) but it has a slower move at 12” + D6 advance.

In comparison the orca is 300 points, holds 48 infantry / drones (ignoring battlesuits) and has 28 wounds and fast move 20-55”. It also has the aircraft keyword.

So if I were going for Kauyon I would probably be taking the 3 devilfish for more durability and strategems and firepower.

If I were going for competitive play the orca costs more and also takes up a lord of war slot. Its only advantage is getting a lot of units up board fast (turn 1 you can use 'supersonic' to move and advance 75”).

Because of this I dont think many would be taking this thing. But I like the model … I just do, and who cares about the rules or the points. (I just want to use it correctly).

So as it is not a competitive unit at the moment, pending any future rules changes or editions (expect in special circumstances). A friendly chat before hand may just resolve this, and is likely the best way forward.

I think if and when I ever print, build and paint the orca I would either not put stealth suits in (just having extra standard infantry instead) or just use it as scenery (as reasons mentioned above).

Instead stealth suits can use the Infiltrators ability tto get them hidden somewhere up board.

bedivere wrote:
I could just as easily pick the opposite in your statement to say the same (with no grounding or reason stated):
anything with the Infantry keyword goes under Infantry capacity not Battlesuit capacity.
(but as I dont have 48 crisis suits and dont know anyone who does and cant even begin to imagine the points / £$ cost of that I dont think that is a large concern)

The reason being is that if it had both Infantry and Battlesuit keywords, you need to strive to break no rule, so putting them in the Battlesuit capacity does just that.

bedivere wrote:
I think that FW just made a woopsy and forgot that stealth suits have both Infantry and Battlesuit which makes this rule a little odd / fuzzy.

Not fuzzy or odd really, just strive to break no rule, and you end up with them as Battlesuit capacity and everything works just fine.

How I'd play it is:
Kroot, vespid, Pathfinders, Fire warriors, Ethereal, in main bay

Stealth, Crisis Broadsides, and Hazzards in secondary.

8 drones including remoras unless still FAQ'd.

*Side not glad you enjoy the orca.

Honestly, best way to go about this is just have your proposals ready for your opponent, and reach a fair agreement. Personally I'd count the Crisis as suits for the transport cap. Remoras are far larger than a Drone to even fit in an Orca.

I would say you've got it surrounded. Anyone that's going to let you use a Legends unit should be reasonable enough to play things logically instead of getting into a RAW fight. I would consider the stealth suit as 2, even though it is less chunky than the others, it is a lot larger than a fire warrior, and it is still technically a battle suit.

On a similar topic, I've noticed a similar issue with the Knarloc Riders from Legends. The models have a Kroot Carnivore rider at the old stats (before they got +1 S and +1A). The thing is, that they used to be 4S because their weapon gave them S+1. While unit stats don't' change, the weapons they have are still updated, so since the Kroot rifle's stat went baseline, it functionally nerfed their strength. I just play it assuming that the rider would have the same stats as a standard Carnivore, just like it used to.