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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/04/07 05:22:57
Subject: Benchmark Anti-Armor ranged Weapon
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Been Around the Block
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For my own Mathhammer calculations, I've been using a single shot from the basic Boltgun (S4 AP0 D1) as shot from a Space Marine (3+ BS), no tactics or buffs, etc as a Benchmark to compare other Anti-Infantry weapons to. It's obviously not perfect, and differs on what it's targeted at. Mostly been comparing (T4 2W 3+), (T3 1W 5+), (T5 3W 3+), and (T4 2W 2+/4++). An interesting tidbit I noticed was that a basic Tactical Squad Marine costs 18 points, and takes 18 boltgun shots to kill on average. So I could use a boltgun as the equivalent of 1 point to compare costs as well.
But I am at a little bit of a loss for what to use as a benchmark for Anti-Armor.
I'm not looking for what weapon is the most efficient, or even best... more like what is the minimum the weapon needs to be considered Anti-Armor and is relatively iconic (as in, everyone recognizes it). Un/Charged Plasma Pistol? Grav-gun? Assault Cannon? Meltagun? Las Fusil? Krak Missile/Grenade? A single shot from something or average number of shots? Most likely going to still be using 3+ BS for any Marine weapon, or should I branch out to other factions with a 4+?
From the other direction, I am also looking at what targets I should be running the numbers on. T6-8 at 3+, T8 at 2+, T7 at 3+ with a 5++ and -1 Damage? What other profiles are useful?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/04/07 08:01:31
Subject: Benchmark Anti-Armor ranged Weapon
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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I usually defaulted to Lascannon, but they're pretty otpaced these days. Still reasonable to use as a baseline anti-armor though, imo.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/04/07 08:48:51
Subject: Benchmark Anti-Armor ranged Weapon
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Fixture of Dakka
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Agreed on the lascannon. It's looking a little inconsistent compared to modern melta and lance weapons, but it's still a pretty iconic benchmark for "anti tank" weapons.
You could maybe even go as low as a krak missile if you want to run math against T8 targets (the lascannon is actually a smidge higher strength than things like melta, lance, etc.) However, the krak missile might be a bit too much of an outlier compared to more modern anti-tank weapons. Krak has both the randomness of the d6 Damage stat and the slightly low AP-2. The krak missile is still definitely an anti-tank weapon, but the lascannon's AP probably gives it a stronger resemblance to other "standard" anti-tank profiles.
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ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/04/07 10:25:31
Subject: Benchmark Anti-Armor ranged Weapon
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I'd go for lascannons. Krak missiles have an added hindrance for comparison that every platform also pulls double duty as a frag missile platform. To my mind that makes it a little more complex to compare weapon systems, when instead you'd actually just be comparing other guns to an ammo type or firing mode instead.
Using the lascannon also means your base weapon is closer to a median, instead of being the absolute worst or best gun of its type. Which might otherwise cause problems, when you want to create rules for a better or worse gun and you find you've run out of road.
As for targets, I guess the common Imperial vehicles, plus some of the xenos vehicles that have extra rules like quantum shielding, night shield, etc
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/04/07 20:22:32
Subject: Benchmark Anti-Armor ranged Weapon
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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh
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To me the minimum weapon I would consider anti-tank is an autocannon (S7). As far as benchmark weapons I agree that the Lascannon should be used.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/04/07 21:12:34
Subject: Benchmark Anti-Armor ranged Weapon
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Been Around the Block
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I initially dismissed the Lascannon since it is S9 and random damage, so is basically wounding everything on 3s already, where the other Anti-Armor runs a range of S6-9. Since the Armor I am looking at tends to also run from T6-8 I was thinking the Benchmark should likely be around 7, so as to spread the numbers a little and see a little variance.
For example, a Heavy Bolter shooting at a Marine is worth 12 Boltgun Shots. I am looking for something similar. A Boltgun isn't great in the current state of the game (as I mentioned 18 shots to kill a marine), so "good" Anti-armor isn't what I am looking for. It's not the worst though.
With the Lascannon(H1 S9 -3AP 1d6D) shooting(3+BS) at a T8 3+, it'll average 1.3W, while a Uncharged Plasma Cannon with 2 (1d3) shots will average 0.37 wounds. So if I use the Lascannon as the Benchmark, the Plasma Cannon would score a 0.285, which is a messy number. The reverse though, with the uncharged Plasma as Benchmark would have the Lascannon scoring a 3.5, which feels much better.
Before making this thread I hadn't really considered the Plasma Pistol much, for any role. But since Plasma is the same whether is Pistol, Gun, or Cannon (though vehicles have some stronger varieties), it is fairly stable and might make a decent benchmark.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/04/07 21:34:45
Subject: Benchmark Anti-Armor ranged Weapon
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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^Plasma is a little goofy though, imo, because it's got the Overcharge ability, and is S7 or 8, making it perform wildly differently vs T7 and T8. I used to run Plasma all the time because it scores better than Lascannons against many targets once you're in Overcharge (1.47 against T7 3+, vs 1.28) The Lascannon however is nice and stable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/04/07 22:08:27
Subject: Benchmark Anti-Armor ranged Weapon
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Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks
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Insectum got it right. Lascan should be the anti armor standard.
Interesting approach OP.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/04/14 05:55:02
Subject: Re:Benchmark Anti-Armor ranged Weapon
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Been Around the Block
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Grav is for killing infantry, and Lascannons are for killing tanks... right? RIGHT?!!?
So, ran some numbers and interestingly the Grav-Cannon is kind of a mirror to the Lascannon. Same AP at -3, so no math there. Almost all vehicles/armor are going to be T6-T8, so the Lascannon will always wound on 3+ and the Grav-Cannon will always wound on 5+. But, if you double the shots(from 1 to 2), 2 at 5+ are on average the same as a single shot at 3+. Lascannon is d6 damage, which averages 3.5, and Grav-Cannon is flat 2 against the targets we care about. So again, double the shots (from 2 to 4) and Grav-cannon averages 4 damage in the comparison. So since the Lascannon has only one shot and the Grav-Cannon has 4...the Grav-Cannon maths out to more damage against T6-T8. Actually ALL toughnesses.
Shooting by a 3+ BS at T8 3+ save:
Grav-cannon: 1.48
Lascannon: 1.29
Krak Missile: 0.77
Multi-Melta(not in half): 2.33
MM(in half had to move): 2.75
MM(in half): 3.6
Plasma Cannon(non overcharge): 0.44
Plasma Cannon(overcharge): 1.11
Heavy Bolter: 0.66
Twin* Autocannon: 0.88
Kheres-pattern assault cannon: 0.66
Twin* Volkite Culverin: 2.07
Heavy Plasma Cannon(non-OC): 0.74
Heavy Plasma Cannon(OC): 1.66
Macro Plasma Incinerator(non-OC): 2.72
Macro Plasma Incinerator(OC): 4.66
Helfrost Cannon(dispersed): 0.29
Helfrost Cannon(focused): 1.66
I threw in the Relic Contemptor's armaments, Redemptor and the Helfrost from a Venerable Dreadnought (though at 3+ BS stll).
Any others I should run the numbers on?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/04/14 06:46:40
Subject: Benchmark Anti-Armor ranged Weapon
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Frag grenade, stalker bolt rifle, heavy bolter, krak grenade, Predator autocannon, multi-melta in RF and lascannon gives you a range of S (3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), AP (0, -1, -2, -3, -4) and D values (1, 2, D3, 3, D6, D6+2).
Let's say you want to compare every unit in the Necrons roster, you calculate how many points one hit from each of the weapons would score on average against every unit and then you can list who is most susceptible to which weapons. Canoptek Reanimators would regularly rank below Canoptek Spyders because they are more expensive and less durable for example. But is my opponent better off shooting stalker bolt rifles at Immortals or Warriors? That's harder to tell because Immortals are more durable but also more expensive.
If a unit is weak to every type of weapon it would need to have some other big upsides to make it worth it and if it was durable against all the weapons relative to other Necron units then it is probably really good unless its mobility and damage output is total garbage.
Grav is for killing infantry, and Lascannons are for killing tanks... right? RIGHT?!!?
Lascannon has range, Greater Daemons also exist. Range is just kind of a garbage stat in 9th and that is not something that shows in the price of lascannons.
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