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Hey - So this might have been covered in one of the many HH threads already including the leaks etc.etc.. but not easy to find.

Now that the box can be pre-ordered next Saturday - What is the current thought on the Age of Darkness box set as a army base 40k?

Will it in anyway be useful for 40k Space Marine rules that seem to be weighted for Primaris and special units or is this just for 30k where troops seem to be important?

I am seriously considering it. Beakies....

I'd dare say this set plus the Special/Heavy Weapons packs are going to be one of the best bang-for-your-buck deals for running Firstborn. I'd say the Spartan is less useful in this regard, but the rest (40 marines, 10 Relic Terminators, 1 Contemptor) are all going to be solid.

The main problem is that the way you build 40k marines is not really the way you necessarily want to build 30k marines. You can get an army playable in both, but it probably won't be a very good army in one or both systems if you do - not without you going out of the way to invest in a bunch of additional stuff beyond the box contents to give yourself a bit of flexibility in terms of what you swap in/out to make the army "competitive" in each system (in the loosest possible definition of the term).

At a minimum, for 40k buying the special/heavy weapon upgrade packs is going to be mandatory so that you can field special and heavy weapons in your tactical marine squads, otherwise you're stuck with an army that is mostly just bolters, which is not a winning formula (and in fact because of the general lack of key special/heavy weapons across the rest of the box you're going to find yourself at a big disadvantage vs 40k lists). In 30k fielding veteran tactical squads is a viable way to build an army, so you're not necessarily hurting yourself by doing so - but common 30k VTS loadouts don't look anything at all like 40k tactical squad loadouts so its a bit of a rock v hard place problem - if you optimize for 40k then you're at a disadvantage in 30k because VTS are kinda expensive and fragile vs the 10-20 man infantry bricks, so you want to maximize your bang for your buck on them... but if you optimize for 30k then the build probably is not legal in 40k terms unless you field them as a unit of Company/Vanguard/Sternguard vets, etc. Typical 30k build is special + heavy weapon + 3-6 power weapons + Sgt loadout, so you're probably looking at running them as company vets in 40k terms if you go this route... which makes those marines a bit less useful to you as troops choices. The other thing you can do is do a bit of a "mix and match" and build some of them as veterans or special weapon squads, etc. in 30k terms, and then mix the units together to get tactical squads in 40k terms - you'll have to get creative on how you do that so that you don't have any wasted/extra minis that you can't slot in from one list to the other.

The Spartan is more or less dead weight in 40k - on top of being extremely expensive points wise, it costs an extra CP to field on top of being a Lord of War (keep in mind that the next Chapter Approved is changing the way CP is allocated, you will have less available to you at the start of the game, so this might not be something you want to do), and lascannons are one of the worst heavy weapons in the game (the Spartan packing 8 of them doesn't change much about that, only makes the damage output a bit more predictable through volume).

For the Contemptor, you're going to want to field it as a Relic Contemptor (another +1CP to field it) and probably have to buy some resin weapon upgrades, as the basic Contemptor doesn't give you much to work with in 40k (choice of multimelta or Kheres assault cannon) - most people fielding them in 40k take twin volkite culverins which does not appear to be included with the new 30k mini.

The Cataphractii terminator kits are a bit limited in 40k terms, they come with a combi-bolter for each mini (I guess technically you can count it as a stormbolter in 40k if you wanted to field a regular Terminator squad instead of a Relic Termie squad) and 1 in 5 gets an option to upgrade to a heavy flamer - the plastic kit does not include the reaper autocannon option nor any of the other ranged weapon options available in 30k/40k (no cyclone missile launcher though you get a grenade harness oyu can count as a cyclone missile launcher I guess?). The kit also comes with a power sword for the sgt, and enough power fists, paired lightning claws, and chainfists for every model in the kit - so you can field them as a Terminator Assault Squad, just not with Thunder Hammer and Stormshield. If you field them as a relic terminator squad, you don't have bits for the plasma blaster or volkite charger. All in all - this is kind of a dud in 40k terms unless you invest into resign upgrade bits to make them a bit more fieldable. Even then, terminators aren't exactly tearing up the meta right now, unless you're playing Death Guard or Thousand Sons, and where they are seeing use in loyalist lists requires weapon options that the kit doesn't give you.

In terms of the two character minis, I'm not sure how they would best slot into a firstborn list. My gut instinct is that neither of them makes something obviously WYSIWYG in 40k terms, so you may need to get creative or do some converting.

As for long term prospects as a 40k army - I think Primaris are the future. Firstborn will be around for a while but I don't believe they will be around forever - but I think part of the way the Firstborn get phased out will eventually be to make the Primaris more like the firstborn squads they are replacing, so technically your firstborn style marine minis should still remain useable.

Of course, if you just want a cool army then you needn't necessarily "oPTiMiSe!" everything. Depends on how you want to play the game/approach the hobby really.

I'm planning on picking up the box and at least one Deimos Rhino for my upscaled all-Firstborn Crimson Fists army. The rulebook and the units I don't want will be getting twanged up on eBay.

 Nazrak wrote:
Of course, if you just want a cool army then you needn't necessarily "oPTiMiSe!" everything. Depends on how you want to play the game/approach the hobby really.

I wasn't even talking about optimizing, I was just talking about playable and having a fair shot of winning games in both systems. Theres a reason I used the word competitive in quotes. I assume anyone asking if you can build an army for both games and concerned that the 40k rules favor Primaris is looking for some degree of what I call "playability", even if its not "optimized" or "competitive" per se.

the best way to use the HH Box in 40k would be to go full "count as" and use them as Primaris Marines
than you can use the same units in both games

trying to make 30k armies fit normal Marines in 40k or vica versa will not work in an easy way

No, the best way to use it in both 30k and 40k is to use it to build one of the Traitor/Chaos Legions. No proxies required. "CSM: Where a Marine is still a Marine".

 kodos wrote:
the best way to use the HH Box in 40k would be to go full "count as" and use them as Primaris Marines
than you can use the same units in both games

trying to make 30k armies fit normal Marines in 40k or vica versa will not work in an easy way

Possibly true. Run your 30k tactical marines w/ bolters as Intercessor, run your plasma special weapon squads as Hellblasters, etc.

Thanks for the feedback.

I think my 2 or 3 main questions have been brought up.

@arcanis161 Brings up my thought process

@chaos0xomega is pretty close to what I was wondering about interoperability between the games - and strictly speaking its a no.

If Chaos was... just rebelling loyalist troops then i might be more interested in them.