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Okay, so for us veterans of the hobby, we all know that while GW's pricing are always high, Forge World is magnitudes above, reserved for only those with huge wallets or a lot of patience in saving up. However, with new GW models getting more and more expensive, that's seeming to be less and less the case.

I was looking into some HH stuff the other day and my eye caught the Raven Guard Mor Deythan Strike Squad, a unit of 5 Power Armoured Snipers for $95.50 (Canadian). Pretty pricy for 5 models to be sure, but a lot of the new Primaris models are now in kits of 3, and are rather expensive. Primaris Eliminators will run you $65.00 (Canadian) for a kit of only 3 models, so that means that 10 Specialist Resin Snipers will run you $191.00 for 10 modes, whereas the Eliminators will run you $195.00 for 9 modes.

Looking at these, so long as you're either Raven Guard, or willing to do a little converting, it wouldn't be hard at all to use these as Eliminators so long as you're not hung up on the Las Fusils, and still have an extra model leftover. Or to use them for both HH and 40k. Now of course that doesn't take into account FLGS discounts that FW doesn't give, or that the Eliminators were in a couple discount boxes making their baseline unit not that hard to acquire second hand, but even so, I think the point still stands. I chose these because they are very comparable units that could be played as each other (or at least the HH version as the 40k version), but you can make the case with many of the other units as well.

I know this is hardly the case across the board, but for a veteran of the hobby, this price comparison really made my eyes pop and see just how much these new plastic models are in comparison to what we've always considered the far more expensive option.

Or, and I'm just throwing this out there, proxy models, 3rd party models, and printed models cost almost nothing. Check out any of the non-GW affiliates. I can get a pack of 20 "space troopers" from a printing seller, for less than the cost of shipping. And it's not piracy, because they aren't marketed as GW models.

Forgeworld has been lower quality than GW plastic for a long time now. (Don't give me any of that 'crisper details' garbage. Less flash, fewer moldlines, 0 bubbling, nothing comes warped, and it doesn't melt in the sun the way forgeworld resin does)

So honestly, while the price creep sucks, I am glad we're getting to the point where people can stop pretending Forgeworld is good just because it's expensive.

ERJAK wrote:
Forgeworld has been lower quality than GW plastic for a long time now. (Don't give me any of that 'crisper details' garbage. Less flash, fewer moldlines, 0 bubbling, nothing comes warped, and it doesn't melt in the sun the way forgeworld resin does)

So honestly, while the price creep sucks, I am glad we're getting to the point where people can stop pretending Forgeworld is good just because it's expensive.

I mean, its true that resin casting offers nicer details than plastic molds. Just compare the pauldron rivets on a tactical Squad vs the FW ones. GW's have them look like teardrops instead of actual rivets.

The issue is that FW doesn't care about producing quality models, just like GW didnt care about producing quality finecast.

GW/FW really tarnished the reputation of resin (which is IMO the superior medium, along with metal, for producing nice molds)

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Or, and I'm just throwing this out there, proxy models, 3rd party models, and printed models cost almost nothing. Check out any of the non-GW affiliates. I can get a pack of 20 "space troopers" from a printing seller, for less than the cost of shipping. And it's not piracy, because they aren't marketed as GW models.

Putting aside the whole debate on supporting IP vs price gouging, it really depends on where you play. If you're just playing with a group of friends at home, no big deal. My FLGS will turn a blind eye to a few non-GW models in their events (I use an Ethereal and Shaper from Wargaming Exclusive to lead my Kroot army) but draw the line at large portions of the army being 3rd party models. Also obviously if you play at big official events, this is a no-go.

Even so, that was never really the point, I wasn't saying that they were the cheapest option by any means, just that I found the price slide very surprising as a veteran of 40k.

The Eliminators are a multipart plastic kit with options for wargear on the basic troopers and the sergeant, are larger models and the box comes with transfers.
The Mor Deythan are resin and don't come with options.
The units may be comparable in battlefield roles but the models aren't.

 Gert wrote:
The Eliminators are a multipart plastic kit with options for wargear on the basic troopers and the sergeant, are larger models and the box comes with transfers.
The Mor Deythan are resin and don't come with options.
The units may be comparable in battlefield roles but the models aren't.

I did say putting aside the Las Fusil option. I guess you can count the Bolt Carbine I suppose, but I totally forgot it was a things since it's terrible. Even with the bits of extra possibility, it's not a very large kit. Transfers are basically worthless.

Yes, there is a bit more to the Eliminators, but not a massive amount.

 Tawnis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Or, and I'm just throwing this out there, proxy models, 3rd party models, and printed models cost almost nothing. Check out any of the non-GW affiliates. I can get a pack of 20 "space troopers" from a printing seller, for less than the cost of shipping. And it's not piracy, because they aren't marketed as GW models.

Putting aside the whole debate on supporting IP vs price gouging, it really depends on where you play. If you're just playing with a group of friends at home, no big deal. My FLGS will turn a blind eye to a few non-GW models in their events (I use an Ethereal and Shaper from Wargaming Exclusive to lead my Kroot army) but draw the line at large portions of the army being 3rd party models. Also obviously if you play at big official events, this is a no-go.

Even so, that was never really the point, I wasn't saying that they were the cheapest option by any means, just that I found the price slide very surprising as a veteran of 40k.

I always felt this was an odd argument. What would honestly possess a person to play a time consuming and difficult to setup game with another person, in an environment where the proprietor can and does, dictate what and how you can play toy soldiers? Just go to any brick and mortar hobby shop that isn't directly a GW store, and hey presto, you can play anything you want. Even better, setup in your own house. Are we really saying it's a big inconvienence to NOT play at GW stores? I get the whole competitive aspect, but that is such a non-problem, as to be irrelevant. The majority of people who play competitive also have the investment capitol to not have to whine about prices of plastic toys. Or they know the owner. It's pretty often that 2rd party bits make there way onto competitive tables these days, especially in thematic armies that are no longer made. 3rd edition Space marines and such.

 Tawnis wrote:
I did say putting aside the Las Fusil option. I guess you can count the Bolt Carbine I suppose, but I totally forgot it was a things since it's terrible. Even with the bits of extra possibility, it's not a very large kit. Transfers are basically worthless.

Yes, there is a bit more to the Eliminators, but not a massive amount.

Sure when you just remove the options (not just weapons but head swaps and presumably optional basing material) from the kit it's probably not good quality for money. But the options are there whether you like it or not.
It's not a sound argument when you take away points from one side just because.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Or, and I'm just throwing this out there, proxy models, 3rd party models, and printed models cost almost nothing. Check out any of the non-GW affiliates. I can get a pack of 20 "space troopers" from a printing seller, for less than the cost of shipping. And it's not piracy, because they aren't marketed as GW models.

I feel like this is breaking your own setting, I don’t want to play with proxy models. There is so much that goes into making the 40K universe in our heads and look and feel is part of it. GW is expensive but it’s not food and water, just buy less minis, if sales go down because people think it’s too expensive GW will work that out eventually.

If 3rd party models fit your image for 40K then that ok for you but for me you might aswell just buy bases and write what unit they are on it with a sharpie.

 Gert wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:
I did say putting aside the Las Fusil option. I guess you can count the Bolt Carbine I suppose, but I totally forgot it was a things since it's terrible. Even with the bits of extra possibility, it's not a very large kit. Transfers are basically worthless.

Yes, there is a bit more to the Eliminators, but not a massive amount.

Sure when you just remove the options (not just weapons but head swaps and presumably optional basing material) from the kit it's probably not good quality for money. But the options are there whether you like it or not.
It's not a sound argument when you take away points from one side just because.

On Gert’s point here, the Eliminator kit has a LOT of options. So many that if you have a few extra phobos armored bodies around (like those reivers they bundle everywhere but suck on the table) you can easily get another 3 man squad out of them.

Similar to kits like devastators or sternguard, where while they are pricy per model, have so many extras that if you toss a few cheep bodies into the mix you can stretch it out.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:
I did say putting aside the Las Fusil option. I guess you can count the Bolt Carbine I suppose, but I totally forgot it was a things since it's terrible. Even with the bits of extra possibility, it's not a very large kit. Transfers are basically worthless.

Yes, there is a bit more to the Eliminators, but not a massive amount.

Sure when you just remove the options (not just weapons but head swaps and presumably optional basing material) from the kit it's probably not good quality for money. But the options are there whether you like it or not.
It's not a sound argument when you take away points from one side just because.

On Gert’s point here, the Eliminator kit has a LOT of options. So many that if you have a few extra phobos armored bodies around (like those reivers they bundle everywhere but suck on the table) you can easily get another 3 man squad out of them.

Similar to kits like devastators or sternguard, where while they are pricy per model, have so many extras that if you toss a few cheep bodies into the mix you can stretch it out.

Oh, that's good to know, I didn't think it was that much based on the data profile. (I've only got the set from the start collecting myself).

You could always look at the sprue pictures or read the product description.

 Tawnis wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:
I did say putting aside the Las Fusil option. I guess you can count the Bolt Carbine I suppose, but I totally forgot it was a things since it's terrible. Even with the bits of extra possibility, it's not a very large kit. Transfers are basically worthless.

Yes, there is a bit more to the Eliminators, but not a massive amount.

Sure when you just remove the options (not just weapons but head swaps and presumably optional basing material) from the kit it's probably not good quality for money. But the options are there whether you like it or not.
It's not a sound argument when you take away points from one side just because.

On Gert’s point here, the Eliminator kit has a LOT of options. So many that if you have a few extra phobos armored bodies around (like those reivers they bundle everywhere but suck on the table) you can easily get another 3 man squad out of them.

Similar to kits like devastators or sternguard, where while they are pricy per model, have so many extras that if you toss a few cheep bodies into the mix you can stretch it out.

Oh, that's good to know, I didn't think it was that much based on the data profile. (I've only got the set from the start collecting myself).

It’s not just the options on the profile, but in the kit. Like slung rifles, pistols out, etc.

This is what I did with the SC guys, the full kit, and spare bodies (plus a few odds ends from the bits box):

And I still had spare bits. I think the hardest part to do was to cut the rifle out of one set of arms so I could use it with a more generic pair.

mrFickle wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Or, and I'm just throwing this out there, proxy models, 3rd party models, and printed models cost almost nothing. Check out any of the non-GW affiliates. I can get a pack of 20 "space troopers" from a printing seller, for less than the cost of shipping. And it's not piracy, because they aren't marketed as GW models.

I feel like this is breaking your own setting, I don’t want to play with proxy models. There is so much that goes into making the 40K universe in our heads and look and feel is part of it. GW is expensive but it’s not food and water, just buy less minis, if sales go down because people think it’s too expensive GW will work that out eventually.

Oh yes, if sales of X fall to a certain point & stay there long enough they'll certainly "work that out". They'll work that option right out of the game. At no point will the prices fall.

mrFickle wrote:
If 3rd party models fit your image for 40K then that ok for you but for me you might aswell just buy bases and write what unit they are on it with a sharpie.

Ah, an elitist purest....

What are your thoughts on:
* The old Armorcast/Epicast models? When they were making 40k stuff (for example: the Baneblade) in the 90's before the advent of GWs Forge World they literally had the license to do so. It was every bit as valid a 40k model as anything GW themselves produced. And beyond the super-heavy tanks & Titans they also made more mundane things that could be found in the rules/Codices - like an ork battlewagon - that Gw didn't just have kits for.

* Using other non-40k GW models? I know there's Guard players running Necromunda gangs as IG squads. Squad Orlock, squad Escher, squad Goliath etc I mean, they aren't the Cadians/Catachans/KT:Vets listed on the 40k AM page. Are those proxies/nothing more than labeled bases?
How about using stuff from the WHFB/AoS lines? Like say Ogres vs Orgyns? Or a Bretonian trebuchet used as on Ork (gretchin) Lobba?

* What if simply use old 40k models that no longer resemble their current version? Ex; I have an ork truck from 3rd? 4th? ed. Well, it has a bed. 4 wheels. And an ork driver.....
I've never thought it looked particularly "40k-ish". It was just what Gw made at the time. And I don't see any need to spend $ on the equelly bad looking, just bigger & different, current truck.

* What about scratch built stuff? You know, this IS a hobby centered on building & painting models. Some of us have the time & skill to do far more in the building phase than use GW branded clippers to snip bitz of GW sprue & attach with GW glue so that we can all play with identical looking models come game night.
Sometimes a GW model is good enough. Or at least convenient. Other times I've got my own ideas for a project.

ccs wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Or, and I'm just throwing this out there, proxy models, 3rd party models, and printed models cost almost nothing. Check out any of the non-GW affiliates. I can get a pack of 20 "space troopers" from a printing seller, for less than the cost of shipping. And it's not piracy, because they aren't marketed as GW models.

I feel like this is breaking your own setting, I don’t want to play with proxy models. There is so much that goes into making the 40K universe in our heads and look and feel is part of it. GW is expensive but it’s not food and water, just buy less minis, if sales go down because people think it’s too expensive GW will work that out eventually.

Oh yes, if sales of X fall to a certain point & stay there long enough they'll certainly "work that out". They'll work that option right out of the game. At no point will the prices fall.

mrFickle wrote:
If 3rd party models fit your image for 40K then that ok for you but for me you might aswell just buy bases and write what unit they are on it with a sharpie.

Ah, an elitist purest....

What are your thoughts on:
* The old Armorcast/Epicast models? When they were making 40k stuff (for example: the Baneblade) in the 90's before the advent of GWs Forge World they literally had the license to do so. It was every bit as valid a 40k model as anything GW themselves produced. And beyond the super-heavy tanks & Titans they also made more mundane things that could be found in the rules/Codices - like an ork battlewagon - that Gw didn't just have kits for.

* Using other non-40k GW models? I know there's Guard players running Necromunda gangs as IG squads. Squad Orlock, squad Escher, squad Goliath etc I mean, they aren't the Cadians/Catachans/KT:Vets listed on the 40k AM page. Are those proxies/nothing more than labeled bases?
How about using stuff from the WHFB/AoS lines? Like say Ogres vs Orgyns? Or a Bretonian trebuchet used as on Ork (gretchin) Lobba?

* What if simply use old 40k models that no longer resemble their current version? Ex; I have an ork truck from 3rd? 4th? ed. Well, it has a bed. 4 wheels. And an ork driver.....
I've never thought it looked particularly "40k-ish". It was just what Gw made at the time. And I don't see any need to spend $ on the equelly bad looking, just bigger & different, current truck.

* What about scratch built stuff? You know, this IS a hobby centered on building & painting models. Some of us have the time & skill to do far more in the building phase than use GW branded clippers to snip bitz of GW sprue & attach with GW glue so that we can all play with identical looking models come game night.
Sometimes a GW model is good enough. Or at least convenient. Other times I've got my own ideas for a project.

This is all correct and doesn't even get to all the 40K factions that don't have model support and need/ encourage you to convert / use 3rd party models. Everything with the Mark of Nurgle in Codex CSM, for example. There are no GW models for that so you use Kromlech / Spellcrow stuff and others (and Green stuff. Lots of Green stuff).
Feral Orks? AoS gives you some as well as various Fantasy producers.
Freebooters? GW gives you one kit, if you want to have a proper army you do at least headswaps with the use of 3rd party.
Everything not Cadian? Viktoria miniatures, Anvil industry and every producer of historical kits helps you out.
The list can be continued with various SM chapters and Eldar models, which until a few months ago looked more out of place than anything produced by 3rd parties because GWs Eldar miniatures were 15+ years old.

mrFickle wrote:

I feel like this is breaking your own setting, I don’t want to play with proxy models. There is so much that goes into making the 40K universe in our heads and look and feel is part of it.

I cannot think of a mainstream sci-fi franchise with less visual consistency than 40K. You can have tacticool sci-fi supersoldiers, gothic-adorned nuns with guns, British colonials with pith helmets, and space-Vietnam Rambo wannabes side-by-side fighting anime mecha bovines, ancient Egyptian Terminators, or I Can't Believe It's Not Xenomorphs and that's all 100% GW canon.

Like seriously, that's a very odd position to take in a franchise that has cribbed influence from every piece of pop culture under the sun.

(Also, when did 'proxy' stop meaning things like using a Rhino to sub in for a Land Raider or deodorant bottles as land speeders, substitutions made solely to try out a unit you don't own a model for yet, and start meaning any sculpt other than the Official Games Workshop Citadel Miniature for a given unit?)

 catbarf wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

I feel like this is breaking your own setting, I don’t want to play with proxy models. There is so much that goes into making the 40K universe in our heads and look and feel is part of it.

I cannot think of a mainstream sci-fi franchise with less visual consistency than 40K. You can have tacticool sci-fi supersoldiers, gothic-adorned nuns with guns, British colonials with pith helmets, and space-Vietnam Rambo wannabes side-by-side fighting anime mecha bovines, ancient Egyptian Terminators, or I Can't Believe It's Not Xenomorphs and that's all 100% GW canon.

Like seriously, that's a very odd position to take in a franchise that has cribbed influence from every piece of pop culture under the sun.

(Also, when did 'proxy' stop meaning things like using a Rhino to sub in for a Land Raider or deodorant bottles as land speeders, substitutions made solely to try out a unit you don't own a model for yet, and start meaning any sculpt other than the Official Games Workshop Citadel Miniature for a given unit?)

Lost you at "anime mecha bovines". Can you please explain? Is this supposed to be Bullgryns? Because of the Bull? I'm sorry, I was enjoying your entire post, but this slipped past me.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

I feel like this is breaking your own setting, I don’t want to play with proxy models. There is so much that goes into making the 40K universe in our heads and look and feel is part of it.

I cannot think of a mainstream sci-fi franchise with less visual consistency than 40K. You can have tacticool sci-fi supersoldiers, gothic-adorned nuns with guns, British colonials with pith helmets, and space-Vietnam Rambo wannabes side-by-side fighting anime mecha bovines, ancient Egyptian Terminators, or I Can't Believe It's Not Xenomorphs and that's all 100% GW canon.

Like seriously, that's a very odd position to take in a franchise that has cribbed influence from every piece of pop culture under the sun.

(Also, when did 'proxy' stop meaning things like using a Rhino to sub in for a Land Raider or deodorant bottles as land speeders, substitutions made solely to try out a unit you don't own a model for yet, and start meaning any sculpt other than the Official Games Workshop Citadel Miniature for a given unit?)

Lost you at "anime mecha bovines". Can you please explain? Is this supposed to be Bullgryns? Because of the Bull? I'm sorry, I was enjoying your entire post, but this slipped past me.

Pretty sure that’s a Tau reference. Anime mecha aesthetics, and they have hooves for feet. Granted, I think they get referred to as fish people more often then bovines, but that comes from the imperial code names for their vehicles more then biology.

 catbarf wrote:


(Also, when did 'proxy' stop meaning things like using a Rhino to sub in for a Land Raider or deodorant bottles as land speeders, substitutions made solely to try out a unit you don't own a model for yet, and start meaning any sculpt other than the Official Games Workshop Citadel Miniature for a given unit?)

It has been like that all my w40k life. So at least since 8th ed. trying to use a bottle as a unit will get you thrown out of a store, specialy if it is not empty or full of stuff that could damage the table if pushed over. And a rhino can't proxy for a LR, they are different size. So in that case it would probably when ever GW decided to make true LoS part of targeting.

Karol wrote:

 catbarf wrote:


(Also, when did 'proxy' stop meaning things like using a Rhino to sub in for a Land Raider or deodorant bottles as land speeders, substitutions made solely to try out a unit you don't own a model for yet, and start meaning any sculpt other than the Official Games Workshop Citadel Miniature for a given unit?)

It has been like that all my w40k life. So at least since 8th ed. trying to use a bottle as a unit will get you thrown out of a store, specialy if it is not empty or full of stuff that could damage the table if pushed over. And a rhino can't proxy for a LR, they are different size. So in that case it would probably when ever GW decided to make true LoS part of targeting.

Proxies are models that need explanation to understand what they're used for.
You can proxy weapons ("all the guns in this squad are actually Lascannons, ignore the heavy Bolter") or units ("That's not Ghazgkull, it's a normal Waaaghboss").
Sometimes you do that to try out armies before buying them ("I'm using the Necrons rules today for my Space Marines because I want to see if I like how the army plays") and sometimes because you don't have the actual models ready ("these archers are shootaboyz"). Sometimes a different Codex has more fitting rules than the actual Codex ("I'm using Space Wolves rules for my World Eaters because GW took away all of my Chaos steeds").

Using a Kromlech Ork as a GW Ork is not proxying because they're the same, you can't confuse the one for being something else. Same with Spellcrow Plague Marines or Artelw Inquisitors, all of these are recognizable for what they are despite not being the model that's sold by GW. These are just alternative models.