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Think about it. Chapter serfs live with Space Marines every day, tending to their most mundane needs, caring for them when they're at their most vulnerable. They clean up Ragnar Blackmane's puke after he's drunk too much mead. They change the blood- and urine-stained bedsheets of injured warriors. They know that the dreaded Interrogator-Chaplain Asmodai secretly has a sweet tooth, and that Kor'sarro Khan avoids shellfish because it makes his stomach hurt. The eldest among them remember when a celebrated squad leader was just a nervous 12-year-old boy undergoing his first trials.

This is not to say that chapter serfs don't respect their masters. They can certainly act obsequious, if they know what's good for them. But they are in a unique position to realize that, while Space Marines may be superhuman in some ways, they are very human in others.

They are the Alfred Pennyworth of the Adeptus Astartes. Where others see Batman, they see Master Wayne.

.

Depends on the Chapter and the individual.

They are literally slaves, I doubt they have much in the way of good feelings towards their oppressors. A life of toil and hardship whilst being treated like gak?

Heavily depends on the Chapter, in some they are little more than slaves. In others they are treated with respect and even are given positions of power and authority.

That also depends on the Chapter and the specific Astartes the serf serves.
A slave of the Carcharadons or Flesh Eaters would have a garbage life but a serf of the Scythes of the Emperor (pre Sotha getting consumed) or the Ultramarines wouldn't have an easy life but it would be fulfilling and rewarding.

It has been a while since I read it, so I may be misremembering, but Lukas the Trickster has a great scene where the head chef basically tells Lukas and his entourage to stay out of the way and jog on.

It would be dependent on the chapter culture, and ranking of the serfs (some more experienced and trusted than others), but it's not entirely unreasonable that they see and know the more human sides of the Astartes.

 Gert wrote:
That also depends on the Chapter and the specific Astartes the serf serves.
A slave of the Carcharadons or Flesh Eaters would have a garbage life but a serf of the Scythes of the Emperor (pre Sotha getting consumed) or the Ultramarines wouldn't have an easy life but it would be fulfilling and rewarding.

For the most part slavery isn’t fulfilling or rewarding, even if you are a slave to a so called Nobel person. If you have slaves your nobility is only really superficial. Any chapter serf, no matter how the chapter tries to spin its slavery is a thoroughly miserable existence. The lucky ones are the servitors, at least they don’t know what’s going on.

At the same time they see first hand the rigours and struggles that the Marines face. They tend wounds and clean the sheets from when the Emperors Angels come back from fighting the insanity of Chaos; the horrors of Xenos and the darkness of those who turn against the Emperor.


They are priests directly within the Church of the Imperium tending to the Angels themselves.



They won't regard the Marines the same as regular people, however whilst they'd have familiar regular contact with them, they could still be awed by them. Still consider them higher than themselves (which being a serf/slave system would reinforce). In many ways they could respect and revere them even more than regular people.

Regular people might only hear of Marines in stories and legend whilst Chaos is something they've never heard of except perhaps as a whisper.

It would vary by the chapter. Within imperial society, chapter serfdom is a position of respect, and many chapter serfs would be trained, armed and trusted to act to defend chapter facilities in times of war(such as repelling boarding actions on their warships while the marines are planetside).

Some chapters would no doubt treat their serfs as classical slaves, but many of the more enlightened chapters would treat them well, and their lives would be better than the average imperial citizen.

ADB is a good author for this sort of stuff, as he likes to portray marines through the eyes of baseline humans. Would recommend Spears of the Emperor (I think that's the name of the book) for this as the pov character is a chapter serfs.

Andykp wrote:

For the most part slavery isn’t fulfilling or rewarding, even if you are a slave to a so called Nobel person. If you have slaves your nobility is only really superficial. Any chapter serf, no matter how the chapter tries to spin its slavery is a thoroughly miserable existence. The lucky ones are the servitors, at least they don’t know what’s going on.

Well what's better? Being a worker in a Manufactorum where you'll likely never see the sky or leave your planet, or being a serf of the Ultramarines where you have safety, constant food and your job is to polish armour?
I mean unless we're having a proper philosophical discussion about what is and is not slavery, I'm not sure pulling hairs over this one distinction is important.

I'm having a hard time seeing a Shipmaster as a slave. Reminder that some Chapters use serfs to command their ships.

 Gert wrote:
Depends on the Chapter and the individual.

This!

Some treat you well and some really don't.

Also hevaily depends on their position - are you one of the cleaners or are you a shipmaster.

 Gert wrote:

Andykp wrote:

For the most part slavery isn’t fulfilling or rewarding, even if you are a slave to a so called Nobel person. If you have slaves your nobility is only really superficial. Any chapter serf, no matter how the chapter tries to spin its slavery is a thoroughly miserable existence. The lucky ones are the servitors, at least they don’t know what’s going on.

Well what's better? Being a worker in a Manufactorum where you'll likely never see the sky or leave your planet, or being a serf of the Ultramarines where you have safety, constant food and your job is to polish armour?
I mean unless we're having a proper philosophical discussion about what is and is not slavery, I'm not sure pulling hairs over this one distinction is important.

If it was just polishing armour it wouldn’t be so bad but it’s not is it. Most life in the imperium isn’t nice or fulfilling, that’s the point. Serfs being safe? A fortress momentary ever been attacked, were the serfs on ryns world safe, how about on Macragge when behemoth attacked? Emperors children serfs safe? I also imagine corporal punishment from a marines isn’t particularly pleasant. There are obviously better and worse jobs as a slave but none of it would be pleasant and certainly not fulfilling. And rewarding?

As for some chapters treating their slaves well, they are still slaves. As horrible as the setting is let’s not forget that the slaves in the setting will be even more downtrodden and miserable than the lowliest hive dwellers. Slaves are pretty universally at the bottom of the socio-ecconomic pile. This argument is like when people try to justify the genocide in the setting. It doesn’t make it ok to have slaves if there are miserable and dangerous lives to be had out there. And that’s the point, even the “heroes” of the setting do horrific and unimaginable things like commit genocide and have slaves.

I expect there is a lot of indoctrination involved, DA serfs are probably as slavishly cultish about the chapter as the marines. They won’t live a good life from our perspective but they are probably conditioned to think that they should suffer for the good of the chapter and humanity.

In contrast I bet working for the salamanders is pretty good. Sick pay, holiday entitlement on top of public holidays, structured career progression and a subsidised canteen

Andykp wrote:

As for some chapters treating their slaves well, they are still slaves. As horrible as the setting is let’s not forget that the slaves in the setting will be even more downtrodden and miserable than the lowliest hive dwellers. Slaves are pretty universally at the bottom of the socio-ecconomic pile.

You are wrong. Best example being the Janissaries which were one of the political powers of the Ottoman empire.

The socioeconomic status of slaves is a complex issue depending on the historical context.

There are many forms of slavery historically and various forms will take place in 40K - and some Hive dwellings may well be indentured or similar.

 Tyran wrote:

Andykp wrote:

As for some chapters treating their slaves well, they are still slaves. As horrible as the setting is let’s not forget that the slaves in the setting will be even more downtrodden and miserable than the lowliest hive dwellers. Slaves are pretty universally at the bottom of the socio-ecconomic pile.

You are wrong. Best example being the Janissaries which were one of the political powers of the Ottoman empire.

The socioeconomic status of slaves is a complex issue depending on the historical context.

The janisarries were an elite fighting force, they were paid and allowed to marry and things. So not really comparable to the chapter serfs of 40K. More like marines really.

Yes historical slavery is complex and much of 40K life is similar to many forms of real world slavery, but enslaved servants with no rights, no freedoms etc is pretty crappy.

Yes the galaxy is a big place and there will be many relationships between masters and slaves and many different names for them. But those that treat them well wouldn’t probably call them serfs or slaves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
There are many forms of slavery historically and various forms will take place in 40K - and some Hive dwellings may well be indentured or similar.

No doubt, most types of imperial citizens life is miserable and comparable to a slavery in many ways.

Andykp wrote:

The janisarries were an elite fighting force, they were paid and allowed to marry and things. So not really comparable to the chapter serfs of 40K. More like marines really.

Marines are not allowed to marry nor are paid.
In fact Chapter serfs actually have more rights than Marines as serfs are allowed to have families.

In either Lukas the Trickster or War of the Fang, we spend a fair bit of time with some of the Space Wolf chapter serfs. They have families and familial connections. They seem to be free to partner up with whomever they want. I got the impression that their lives are disciplined and not exactly glamorous, but they're not being worked to death, starving, or generally afraid for their lives either. Sure, Fenris might get attacked every now and again, but it seems like the Fang itself has only really been invaded like, twice in the last 10,000 years.

None of which makes serfdom/slavery more ethical. Just pointing out that it's not accurate to say that chapter serfs are (necessarily) living miserable lives full of toil and without families or romance or what have you. I wouldn't choose to be a chapter serf OR a manufactorum worker, but one of those is definitely an improvement over the other. And despite how unethical serfdom/slavery is, we definitely see plenty examples of serfs/slaves in the 41st millenium who do revere their masters. So as terrible as their situations may be, reverering your marine overlords is apparently still a possible outcome.

Heck, I imagine chapter serfs might even be allowed to leave (despite the name) and set off on their own if they don't have any particularly sensitive security information about the chapter. Again, depending on the chapter. Anyone working in the Fang probably knows too many of its secrets for the wolves to let them go. But a fleet-based chapter? I could see them being able to turn in their resignation and stay on that space station their battle barge was refueling at. And at that point, the ethics (though still terrible) get a bit grayer for me. Like, such a human was still born into a system of serfdom/slavery, but their ability to leave their serfdom at any given pit stop kind of recontextualizes things. Being born into enforced servitude is still unethical, but they might actually end up with a healthier early life and more freedom in their adulthood than most of the imperium.

But addressing the initial topic, yeah. Serfs are more aware of the realities of the marines. Whether or not this prevents reverence is going to vary from chapter to chapter and serf to serf. That reverence just won't be rooted in the same level of ignorance as a lot of the imperium.

Andykp wrote:

If it was just polishing armour it wouldn’t be so bad but it’s not is it. Most life in the imperium isn’t nice or fulfilling, that’s the point. Serfs being safe? A fortress momentary ever been attacked, were the serfs on ryns world safe, how about on Macragge when behemoth attacked? Emperors children serfs safe? I also imagine corporal punishment from a marines isn’t particularly pleasant. There are obviously better and worse jobs as a slave but none of it would be pleasant and certainly not fulfilling. And rewarding?

As for some chapters treating their slaves well, they are still slaves. As horrible as the setting is let’s not forget that the slaves in the setting will be even more downtrodden and miserable than the lowliest hive dwellers. Slaves are pretty universally at the bottom of the socio-ecconomic pile. This argument is like when people try to justify the genocide in the setting. It doesn’t make it ok to have slaves if there are miserable and dangerous lives to be had out there. And that’s the point, even the “heroes” of the setting do horrific and unimaginable things like commit genocide and have slaves.

And? We're not debating the ethics of slavery so that's irrelevant.
But as told by others there are Chapters that treat their serfs with respect and value them. I'm not saying every single Chapter does this, in fact the very first thing I said was "It depends".

Some of the Chapters are really harsh - like the Carcharodons

Andykp wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

Andykp wrote:

As for some chapters treating their slaves well, they are still slaves. As horrible as the setting is let’s not forget that the slaves in the setting will be even more downtrodden and miserable than the lowliest hive dwellers. Slaves are pretty universally at the bottom of the socio-ecconomic pile.

You are wrong. Best example being the Janissaries which were one of the political powers of the Ottoman empire.

The socioeconomic status of slaves is a complex issue depending on the historical context.

The janisarries were an elite fighting force, they were paid and allowed to marry and things.

Towards the end, as the empire declined and they forced the empire to give them rights (and also helped along their increasing ineffectiveness as a fighting force). Initially, they did not have rights, weren't paid and couldn't marry.

Slaves are pretty universally at the bottom of the socio-ecconomic pile.

Also depends. Wasn't always true in ancient Rome (there were worse fates, and several types of slavery were economic more than anything. A poor scholar 'slave' kept to tutor rich children had a much better life than a quarry drudge, regardless of the fact that the latter could be 'free') and also isn't broadly true in several caste based societies where there were _definitely_ worse fates.. In the imperium, that assertion certainly is not universal.

But that still doesn't have anything to do with chapter serfs, where it depends greatly. Several groups of chapter serfs definitely revere their marines.

Guardsman wrote:This is not to say that chapter serfs don't respect their masters. They can certainly act obsequious, if they know what's good for them. But they are in a unique position to realize that, while Space Marines may be superhuman in some ways, they are very human in others.

Eh. In many cases they get to see that they _aren't_ human and don't grasp human relationships. The Space Wolf vs Thousand Sons novel goes into the chapter serfs a fair amount. Respect is definitely there, and obsequiousness would be held in contempt by both marines and serfs. But the serf perspective increasingly broadens to the point that they very much realize their masters are not human.

Exactly. It'll vary with chapter, rank, and method of joining.


Chapter - a chapter like the carcharodons treats its serfs as straight up slaves, and most are - prisoners from rebel worlds or people who failed to defend their own planet without help. There's a level of contempt there and it can't help but engender fear, hatred or both in response. The salamanders, by comparison, have serfs who've lived with them all their lives. Yes, a salamanders battle brother is eight feet tall with coal-black skin and blazing eyes but he's also the town Smith whose cakes you used to sneak in and filch when you were three* so at a fundamental level you're never quite going to be scared of him even if he's later your commanding officer on a frigate.

Rank - as noted, a serf might be a labourer in the chapter fortress who rarely sees the astartes, might be a personal bodyman who talks with them every day and has very much the 'alfred' relationship - especially a seasoned serf with a newly elevated battle brother - or even a shipmaster who might in practical terms be giving the marines 'orders' (diplomatically phrased as requests or suggestions no doubt).

Method of joining - some serfs are straight up impressed slaves. Some are willing - every member of the imperial fists, marine or serf - has been asked at least once 'do you want to do this' - and some might be 'failed aspirants' who have a very different view of the marines if they're a peer or even a former close friend.



* he saw you. He's seen every child who's done that for the last century because a toddler 'sneaking' make as much noise as a small ork waaaggh! and he's a goddamn space marine but he secretly let's them get away with it because its funny watching the ludicrous ways they try. He doesn't even really like cake anyway.

Andykp wrote:

 Gert wrote:
That also depends on the Chapter and the specific Astartes the serf serves.
A slave of the Carcharadons or Flesh Eaters would have a garbage life but a serf of the Scythes of the Emperor (pre Sotha getting consumed) or the Ultramarines wouldn't have an easy life but it would be fulfilling and rewarding.

For the most part slavery isn’t fulfilling or rewarding, even if you are a slave to a so called Nobel person. If you have slaves your nobility is only really superficial. Any chapter serf, no matter how the chapter tries to spin its slavery is a thoroughly miserable existence. The lucky ones are the servitors, at least they don’t know what’s going on.

That is completely wrong. Slavery is generally horrible, but there are slaves who have risen to power in our history. Such as the Mamluks of Egypt, the Ghazvanids, and Malik Ambar. These slaves became rulers who lived in luxurious mansions, ate the best food, rode to battles in expensive armor and horses, and controlled the lives of many supposedly free people. Space Marine serfs are no different. Some will toil under harsh conditions for the rest of their lives without any reward while others become effectively warriors and nobles.

bibotot wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Gert wrote:
That also depends on the Chapter and the specific Astartes the serf serves.
A slave of the Carcharadons or Flesh Eaters would have a garbage life but a serf of the Scythes of the Emperor (pre Sotha getting consumed) or the Ultramarines wouldn't have an easy life but it would be fulfilling and rewarding.

For the most part slavery isn’t fulfilling or rewarding, even if you are a slave to a so called Nobel person. If you have slaves your nobility is only really superficial. Any chapter serf, no matter how the chapter tries to spin its slavery is a thoroughly miserable existence. The lucky ones are the servitors, at least they don’t know what’s going on.

That is completely wrong. Slavery is generally horrible, but there are slaves who have risen to power in our history. Such as the Mamluks of Egypt, the Ghazvanids, and Malik Ambar. These slaves became rulers who lived in luxurious mansions, ate the best food, rode to battles in expensive armor and horses, and controlled the lives of many supposedly free people. Space Marine serfs are no different. Some will toil under harsh conditions for the rest of their lives without any reward while others become effectively warriors and nobles.

I am happy to agree with all that if you change the start of the last sentence “MOST will toil under harsh ……”

The examples you give and those you could find in the setting will be drops in the ocean compared to the millions of slaves that have been. But otherwise, yeah makes sense.

Ok but again we're not talking about all the slaves ever in the Imperium.
And while most Chapters might be dismissive of mortals, they aren't actively killing or abusing their valued Chapter assets just for kicks.

Nah, maybe just for ritual and tradition. . . it wouldn't be out of the question.

locarno24 805368 11374794 wrote:

Yes, a salamanders battle brother is eight feet tall with coal-black skin and blazing eyes but he's also the town Smith whose cakes you used to sneak in and filch when you were three*

* he saw you. He's seen every child who's done that for the last century because a toddler 'sneaking' make as much noise as a small ork waaaggh! and he's a goddamn space marine but he secretly let's them get away with it because its funny watching the ludicrous ways they try. He doesn't even really like cake anyway.

This...

^sniff^

This...seriously needs to be a story.

 Tyran wrote:

Andykp wrote:

As for some chapters treating their slaves well, they are still slaves. As horrible as the setting is let’s not forget that the slaves in the setting will be even more downtrodden and miserable than the lowliest hive dwellers. Slaves are pretty universally at the bottom of the socio-ecconomic pile.

You are wrong. Best example being the Janissaries which were one of the political powers of the Ottoman empire.

The socioeconomic status of slaves is a complex issue depending on the historical context.

Didn't the Chinese Empire have high ranking slaves too? That's what the Eunuchs were, weren't they?

locarno24 wrote:
Exactly. It'll vary with chapter, rank, and method of joining.


Chapter - a chapter like the carcharodons treats its serfs as straight up slaves, and most are - prisoners from rebel worlds or people who failed to defend their own planet without help. There's a level of contempt there and it can't help but engender fear, hatred or both in response. The salamanders, by comparison, have serfs who've lived with them all their lives. Yes, a salamanders battle brother is eight feet tall with coal-black skin and blazing eyes but he's also the town Smith whose cakes you used to sneak in and filch when you were three* so at a fundamental level you're never quite going to be scared of him even if he's later your commanding officer on a frigate.


* he saw you. He's seen every child who's done that for the last century because a toddler 'sneaking' make as much noise as a small ork waaaggh! and he's a goddamn space marine but he secretly let's them get away with it because its funny watching the ludicrous ways they try. He doesn't even really like cake anyway.

That is so heart warmingly glorious it nearly makes me want to do a small Salamander force based with him as the captain...