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As others have said, it will depend.

However, one suspects that in many examples they’d be akin to Road Crew for Massive Bands.

You’d absolutely know your role, and that You Are Not Them, and never will be. However, rather than say, The Beatles, they’re John, Paul, George and Ringo to you.

Unless your crew for Mariah “apparently you’re not allowed to look her in the eye” Carey or other egomaniacs?

And no. Peculiar Riders are not necessarily a sign of egomania. Esoteric requests (Brahn M&Ms to fill a Brandy Glass) can be included so the band can easily see if you read the Rider.

Please correct me, but from Brothers of the Snake, it makes "serfs" or "petitioners" out to be basically humans that have undergone gene therapy, and are roughly the bare minimum of what a Space Marine is, and have yet to make the actual cut and get their extra parts put in. It's the same in Dante isn't it? Serfs are still 7' tall humans with super strength, but just haven't gotten the call up?

Point being: A Serf or Aspirant, knows enough of what it is to be a space marine to not revere them as gods. As a base human knows a servitor isn't a god, just a very enhanced human.

No, Serfs can sometimes be failed Aspirants but they are not all failed Aspirants. They are just regular humans trained in ways that service their Astartes masters.

Does that mean that technically, serfs could be Servitors?

No, Serfs and Servitors are different things.
A Servitor can only conduct basic tasks unless slaved to anothers control. They are used for menial tasks button pushing and the like.
Serfs are still normal humans, they're just trained to do jobs that are required of Astartes servants. Starship captains, vital crew, armourers, attendants and scribes are all roles that Serfs fill.

There are numerous instances of servitors being used to "arm" Astartes. If you are talking about Maintenance, or repair, isn't that the purview of the Forge Master (BT nomenclature)? I thought Armor and Weapons were maintained by the chapter brothers, why would serfs be allowed to repair what is essentially holy relics of the chapter?

Starship captains are Serfs? Since when? The commander of a vessel is usually either an astartes, a Naval officer, or a member of the Mechanicus. At least in my knowledge. Can you show me an example of a ship captain being a "Serf"?

Perhaps it would be best to define terms before going ahead. I feel a serf is a member of a chapter, although the lowest rank, barely above slave. Until you showed me I was wrong, I though Serfs were enhanced humans. I honestly can't think of a time in the books where I've seen the term used and a description provided.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There are numerous instances of servitors being used to "arm" Astartes. If you are talking about Maintenance, or repair, isn't that the purview of the Forge Master (BT nomenclature)? I thought Armor and Weapons were maintained by the chapter brothers, why would serfs be allowed to repair what is essentially holy relics of the chapter?

Starship captains are Serfs? Since when? The commander of a vessel is usually either an astartes, a Naval officer, or a member of the Mechanicus. At least in my knowledge. Can you show me an example of a ship captain being a "Serf"?

Perhaps it would be best to define terms before going ahead. I feel a serf is a member of a chapter, although the lowest rank, barely above slave. Until you showed me I was wrong, I though Serfs were enhanced humans. I honestly can't think of a time in the books where I've seen the term used and a description provided.

you seem to think serfs are somehow "lesser lower class" a chapter serf is basicly any human whom is part of the "non astartes support" of a chapter. this means that yes some Chapter serfs occupy important positions that outside the chapter would be deemed to be "powerful ones"

Servitors are not people, serfs are people.

Servitors are basically what the Imperium uses because they will not use robots with AI brains. So they slave human bodies to the role. They aren't classed as human, aren't treated as such or anything.

They are tools.

Within that there's huge variation from those designed quite literally to just push a button, up to those with more complex operations. Having arms replaced with lifters so that it can, under direction, raise heavy armour into place to arm a Space Marine would be one such role. The Serf would thus be doing the work of controlling/overseeing the Servitor on some level - or a forge master would or such.


Basically the Servitor isn't a person its a thing.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There are numerous instances of servitors being used to "arm" Astartes. If you are talking about Maintenance, or repair, isn't that the purview of the Forge Master (BT nomenclature)? I thought Armor and Weapons were maintained by the chapter brothers, why would serfs be allowed to repair what is essentially holy relics of the chapter?

Maintainance is the purview of all of the above. Techmarines maintain advanced systems and equipment, such as a Chapters compliment of Terminator armour. Servitors are often used to armour Astartes but the role can just as easily be performed by Serfs, in fact, Serfs are better as they can adapt to the needs of their masters more readily than Servitors. For example, each Astartes of the Excoriators Chapter has three Serfs who are used for arming, maintenance, scribe work, and importantly flagellation.

Starship captains are Serfs? Since when? The commander of a vessel is usually either an astartes, a Naval officer, or a member of the Mechanicus. At least in my knowledge. Can you show me an example of a ship captain being a "Serf"?

Ok, it's never a Naval officer because the Navy is independent of the Astartes and only a Chapter deeply connected to the Mechanicus such as the Iron Hands would allow a Techpriest to command their vessels. As for Serfs commanding ships, Lotara Sarrin commanded the Conquerer and Escort ships are often commanded entirely by mortal crews as assigning Astartes to them is a waste.

Perhaps it would be best to define terms before going ahead. I feel a serf is a member of a chapter, although the lowest rank, barely above slave. Until you showed me I was wrong, I though Serfs were enhanced humans. I honestly can't think of a time in the books where I've seen the term used and a description provided.

Serf is the catch-all term for a human tithed to a Chapter. The name will vary between Chapters and in the more brutal Chapters, they are just slaves trained to do a specific job. For those Chapters that aren't emo psychos or angry vampires, the position of Serf is an honourable one for mortals as they are vital to the running of a Chapter. The Space Wolves, for example, have specific tribes that have been granted settlement rights to live in the shadow of their keep, the Fang, and it is from these tribes that Serfs and sometimes Aspirants are taken.
A human who lives on a Chapter planet, such as Fenris or Baal, is not automatically a Serf. They have to specifically be "employed" by the Chapter.

 Overread wrote:
Servitors are not people, serfs are people.

Servitors are basically what the Imperium uses because they will not use robots with AI brains. So they slave human bodies to the role. They aren't classed as human, aren't treated as such or anything.

They are tools.

Within that there's huge variation from those designed quite literally to just push a button, up to those with more complex operations. Having arms replaced with lifters so that it can, under direction, raise heavy armour into place to arm a Space Marine would be one such role. The Serf would thus be doing the work of controlling/overseeing the Servitor on some level - or a forge master would or such.


Basically the Servitor isn't a person its a thing.

Legio Titanica begs to differ...

But without getting off topic, my point wasn't that Servitors were humans with minds, but that "Serf" is, in my extremely limited experience (7th forward) a very rare term, that is extremely malleable, with no clear definition. A serf could me a captain of a ship, or they could be the chamber maid. Do you see the difference in that? Or the value in even using the word? A Captain of a naval vessle, especially one belonging to the Astartes that is likely to see constant battle, likely has the highest shola training, enhancement, and is picked from the purest stock of candidates. The Chamber maid likely doesn't have any training.

To use the same term to describe both, essentially robs the word of any meaning or value. It's like calling a President a celebrity. Yes, the term fits, but it greatly under sells the importance of one of them. That's my point. What good is a term like Serf if it can be essentially anything?

Congratulations you have encountered Words and Language.

Serf does have a clear meaning though?
A serf was an agricultural laborer bound to a feudal lord's estate.

The implication in this context is that serfs are bound to a chapter and they have no real autonomy, and are expected to do labour. In the context of being in a Space Marine chapter this could be anywhere from cleaning weapons, to preparing meals and producing food (marines gotta eat too. Can't rely on the Imperium's gakky logistics network) or cleaning toilets.
Because in the grim darkness of the far future, there are still septic tanks.

Much like the feudal serfs of old, how chapter serfs are treated depends on their liege lords.

In short, Chapter Serfs are there to support the theme of Space Marines being monastic feudal knights in space. Whilst they don't strictly follow the definition of a serf, in terms of theme and function they are pretty close.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A serf could me a captain of a ship, or they could be the chamber maid. Do you see the difference in that? Or the value in even using the word? A Captain of a naval vessle, especially one belonging to the Astartes that is likely to see constant battle, likely has the highest shola training, enhancement, and is picked from the purest stock of candidates. The Chamber maid likely doesn't have any training.

To use the same term to describe both, essentially robs the word of any meaning or value. It's like calling a President a celebrity. Yes, the term fits, but it greatly under sells the importance of one of them. That's my point. What good is a term like Serf if it can be essentially anything?

It's a useful term because it describes who they are affiliated with. A chapter serf ship captain is different from an Imperial navy ship captain.

Animus wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A serf could me a captain of a ship, or they could be the chamber maid. Do you see the difference in that? Or the value in even using the word? A Captain of a naval vessle, especially one belonging to the Astartes that is likely to see constant battle, likely has the highest shola training, enhancement, and is picked from the purest stock of candidates. The Chamber maid likely doesn't have any training.

To use the same term to describe both, essentially robs the word of any meaning or value. It's like calling a President a celebrity. Yes, the term fits, but it greatly under sells the importance of one of them. That's my point. What good is a term like Serf if it can be essentially anything?

It's a useful term because it describes who they are affiliated with. A chapter serf ship captain is different from an Imperial navy ship captain.

It also implies a certain degree of servitude.
A Chapter Serf is bound to the Chapter for life. Are Navy captains bound in such a way to the Navy?

If you want to talk Bonded Servitude? Include the Marines in that too.

Once recruited, that’s it. No more freedom. At all. You die, become a Serf, or become an Astartes and serve until you die on some far flung battlefield.

No candidate ever retires.

True, which again ties with the whole monastic theme. Monks tend to be monks for life. Or at least, that's what the perception is.

So again, the difference between a serf and a slave is?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So again, the difference between a serf and a slave is?

Serfs come with the land. Slaves themselves are property.
You can get a bunch of slaves and sell them off to the highest bidder. Can't do that with serfs.
I do understand where the confusion comes from though, as they are both types of forced labour, and serf is actually derived from the Latin word for slave, Servus.

I would assume that Chapter Serfs are bound to the Chapter, much like the Serfs were to the land. I don't think Space Marines can sell their Serfs?

No you can't sell a Serf. At best you can send a portion of Serfs to a newly founded Successor or to a fellow Chapter if they need to rebuild. Space Marines don't have commerce.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So again, the difference between a serf and a slave is?

Serfs come with the land. Slaves themselves are property.
You can get a bunch of slaves and sell them off to the highest bidder. Can't do that with serfs.
I do understand where the confusion comes from though, as they are both types of forced labour, and serf is actually derived from the Latin word for slave, Servus.

I would assume that Chapter Serfs are bound to the Chapter, much like the Serfs were to the land. I don't think Space Marines can sell their Serfs?

Basically what CthuluIsSpy said. Historically it meant you had more rights and there were several classes of serf. A slave is lower than that, where you have absolutely nothing. It seems like picking hairs but the rights you have were historically very important. A serf *could* become a freemen and buy out of their oath to the Landowner but it was rare. A serf could leave the land and go to the city without severe repercussion. A runaway slave would be beaten and perhaps killed. There's not really much in it, it's different levels of a miserable existence after all. There's a lot of significant changes that occur from say the Roman period to the Medieval. And these things are also very different outside of Europe.

In 40k, these things are not exacting. First off, the term serf was used primarily for the Medieval connotation. As said earlier up the thread, the term serf fits into the overall Space Marine aesthetic. Serfdom in 40k is more than likely pretty much the same. There are different classes of serf and that ranges from the top to the bottom. As MDG says, you can argue the Marines themselves are serfs. They are a warrior caste but they still sign the oath to their leigelord and that's that.

It's unlikely lower classes of chapter serfs go to different chapters, once you are in the chapter that's that, especially those that are more secretive.

I would point to the chapter Serfs of the Angels Vermillion.

A slave is someone with not autonomy over their mind or body. The owner decides the fate of the slave, and how that fate will be carried out. Quibling the honor of a tital, or the class system is pointless. A Chapter Serf is not allowed to make decisions about their mind or body, unless given direct permission by the master, or chapter. A Serf cannot commit suicide by choice, or choose to take a mate, or choose to eat when hungry, or go to the bathroom. They can only serve and die.

Or if you want to get all glorific, they can be dranken dry by space vampires, have their flesh cut off, and their bones placed in reverence. It's the oddest thing about the Dante book, that his personal Blood Thrall (A term literally meaning to be inslaved to something) has feelings for him, and they develop this weird "I love my master" friendship, which dante then ends rather horrifically, even though it beings this perverted "joy" to the character.

Nope, Astartes are slavers, pure and simple. Dress it up how you like, put whatever special words around it, they own slaves, and they use them as little more than house servants.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I would point to the chapter Serfs of the Angels Vermillion.

You do remember the second or third post in this thread where people said it would vary from Chapter to Chapter? For every bad example you find someone else can find a good one.

A slave is someone with not autonomy over their mind or body. The owner decides the fate of the slave, and how that fate will be carried out. Quibling the honor of a tital, or the class system is pointless. A Chapter Serf is not allowed to make decisions about their mind or body, unless given direct permission by the master, or chapter. A Serf cannot commit suicide by choice, or choose to take a mate, or choose to eat when hungry, or go to the bathroom. They can only serve and die.

Again, that depends on the Chapter. The Wolves have entire tribes set up for Kaerl (Serf) duty and they live exactly the same way as those tribes in the wilds of Fenris. The best are chosen for Kaerl service but still get to live with their families. Likewise the Salamanders themselves live amongst the tribes of Nocturne from which their Serfs are drawn. Before their homeworld was destroyed, the Scythes of the Emperor were very close to the mortals that lived there, they even had a a special council of mortal leaders who would help guide the Chapter in times of crisis. Hell, the Scythes Serfs had so much freedom that large portions became infested by the Genestealer curse when they mingled with the rest of the population.

Nope, Astartes are slavers, pure and simple. Dress it up how you like, put whatever special words around it, they own slaves, and they use them as little more than house servants.

Once again, we've done this bit where we've discussed how broad the definition of slavery is.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I would point to the chapter Serfs of the Angels Vermillion.

A slave is someone with not autonomy over their mind or body. The owner decides the fate of the slave, and how that fate will be carried out. Quibling the honor of a tital, or the class system is pointless. A Chapter Serf is not allowed to make decisions about their mind or body, unless given direct permission by the master, or chapter. A Serf cannot commit suicide by choice, or choose to take a mate, or choose to eat when hungry, or go to the bathroom. They can only serve and die.

Or if you want to get all glorific, they can be dranken dry by space vampires, have their flesh cut off, and their bones placed in reverence. It's the oddest thing about the Dante book, that his personal Blood Thrall (A term literally meaning to be inslaved to something) has feelings for him, and they develop this weird "I love my master" friendship, which dante then ends rather horrifically, even though it beings this perverted "joy" to the character.

Nope, Astartes are slavers, pure and simple. Dress it up how you like, put whatever special words around it, they own slaves, and they use them as little more than house servants.

reality, Fezzik, isn't so black and white. nuance is definatly a thing.

On the topic of marines being pretty much indentured themselves; even Custodes get to retire after a couple thousand years. Marines either die in service or die and stay in service for another few centuries.

Custodes can retire? Odd, you'd think the Emperor's bodyguards would be bound to him in perpetuity, especially when no new Custodes are being made. Or am I mistaken about that? Are Custodes still being produced?

They don't really retire, they get slow and become Eyes of the Emperor. These Custodes go out into the Imperium, building vast networks of spies and informants to find threats to the Imperium. They use clandestine channels to communicate with the Captain-General who then despatches forces to deal with said threats.

They are indeed still in production. For every dozen, or is it every few dozen, infants offered up to the programme (and were talking still in nappies here) approximately one Custodian gets made. No-one will explain why the attrition rate is so high but that’s another topic. Also I should correct that: they don’t resign from the Custodes; they retire to supernumerary positions elsewhere in the Imperial hierarchy and act as intelligence agents for the ones still in active service while doing other jobs. Basically they get benched when their reflexes dull to merely superhuman. Because even a retired Custodes is still biologically immortal and needs something to do with the next five thousand years of their life…

That actually sounds like a pretty high rate of production, considering the Imperium's population.

How many children do Space Marines go through to get their recruits?

The Custodes don't recruit as often as Astartes do but I'm not sure where the 1 in a dozen comes from.
Astartes recruitment depends on a lot of things, most importantly geneseed compatibility. The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and Ultramarines all had geneseed that was highly adaptable. The Blood Angels especially could take highly mutated humans from the wastes of Terra and then Baal and turn them into semi-angelic beings. It's never explicitly stated exactly how many recruits each Chapter takes and how many pass because each Chapters trials are of varying degrees of lethality.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That actually sounds like a pretty high rate of production, considering the Imperium's population.

How many children do Space Marines go through to get their recruits?

We don’t actually have much data but in Ragnar they lose one aspirant to a training accident and about thirty percent of a cohort of a few dozen to the final trials but then the Wolves have one of the most brutal conversion methods known. The Blood Angels on the other hand stick their frail, emaciated, rad-poisoned prospects in a magic coffin and set them on five minute defrost. I believe they have something like a 90% success rate.
Either way it’s definitely better than 100 to 1 and the Custodes only “recruit” firstborn sons of Terran adepts and that on a volunteer basis.