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Hey there everyone! So I just had an interesting Crusade game this past week where I misplayed completely on a critical turn. This, naturally, resulted in me losing the game in the end, though I did realize my mistake during that critical turn and tried to rectify it with my opponent. While we did correct the misplay and continued the game, I later realized that this misplay affected other aspects of that turn where things would have gone very differently had I realized my mistake sooner. Personally, I felt bad that I had forgotten this ability and then used it after the fact, though my opponent was nice enough to allow it, but this then caused me to further forget that it would have greatly affected the rest of that phase, and for things to have gone the way they should I would have needed to additionally take back another move, which I felt was unfair to my opponent so I accepted my mistake and pretty much took the loss because of it. My opponent, despite his usual affability, was definitely getting irked that I forgot so many of my abilities in that particular phase and I understood his consternation, as it must have seemed like I was trying to just win the game by saying "well this would not have happened because of this, and that means this happens over here and this would have done this." Obviously I would never ask my opponent to allow me so many takebacks and so once the first was allowed I did not press the issue anymore and accepted that it was my own error of course (which it always was, and I was ashamed as I usually do not forget such important datasheet rules like the ones I missed, the extra layers of Crusade right?). What I am realizing is that some of my previous opponents did not do the same, and asked to take back certain moves that I allowed, giving them the chance to put themselves in the best possible position. I will go into greater detail with all this, but I just wanted to get people's feelings on playing with Matched Play rules in a Narrative Play setting like Crusade.

For additional context, my opponent was an acquaintance who I have played multiple times in the past. We usually have pretty close games, and have played both casually competitive matched play pickup games and some more fluffy "beer and pretzel" games as well. We are both now in a Crusade Campaign that one of the guys at our FLGS is moderating, and the gaming community there agreed to incorporate most matched play rules into the Crusade. The main reason I bring this particular instance up is because the general saying from most of the participants has been something along the lines of "don't let the rules get in the way of enjoying the game" and this has led to multiple games where I have felt somewhat cheated because of a mistake or misplay in the rules of the game. This particular time it was my own mistake that definitely lost me the game, and I know I only have myself to blame, as I know the game goes completely differently if I remember that my mistake affected more moments in the game then just the one time where I caught it in that critical turn, but in other games certain rules have been either forgotten or unwittingly broken by my opponent which I have caught. Many of these instances have led directly to the game going in my opponent's favor and, while I do not want to rules lawyer in a Crusade campaign like this, it just feels somewhat unfair. Furthermore, the moderator of this Crusade is being very lax about any kinds of rules enforcement, so I am hesitant to even rock the boat on this, as I am usually a pretty "go with the flow" kind of guy and just want the game to be fair for both sides.

So I guess with all of this I am just asking for some thoughts on what you would do in this situation, and exactly how much I should be trying to get the Matched Play rules as correct as possible in this Crusade Campaign? I know this is just supposed to be about building a narrative and having fun, and I am enjoying the Crusade, but I also feel like I am being somewhat taken advantage of by these acquaintances who I have played with over the past year or so because of my usual affability and laid back approach. I have no desire to cause any issues or start any fights, but when there are opponents bringing extra PL in their lists because they think that is what our homebrew summoning rules say (it is not, I confirmed it) and others are messing up certain wound allocations which results in them putting a model that should have been removed back on the table (and it just so happens to be the most advantageous model for them), etc. it just feels like some sort of abuse.

Sorry for the wall of text here, but I am trying to keep the spirit of the game intact while keeping the letter of it as much as possible so that way things can be fair for everyone, including myself.

Some of the greatest losses in history is because the enemy forgot or misremembered a critical fact.

You (and your opponent) can't remember everything in the game; if you miss something - and it's an honest mistake, just move on and chalk it up to a learning experience.

Don't sweat the small stuff. Just enjoy things the best you can. If it still bothers you, talk with the campaign moderator about it - but just remember you can't officiate other people's bad memory.

Thanks man, yea, I just always want to try to get as many rules right as I can I guess. I hate for the outcome of a game to be majorly affected just because of some misremembering, but it definitely fits the narrative of current human history as well as that of the 41st millennium lol. I may speak to the moderator if it continues constantly, but I will try not to let it affect my enjoyment of the games. I just try my best to get everything right in these despite how much is going on, and I always feel bad when I mess something up, just feels unfair.

But with the way this game is balanced I guess I shouldn't feel that distraught about it lol.

It's entirely possible to use points instead of PL in crusade. It makes it a fairer experience at the start.

But like most campaigns it still snowballs once everyone starts getting buffs.

Uhm. Matched play rules apply in matched play, not in crusade. So you need to provide more context on what house rules you are using. Without house rules agreed in advance forget all matched play rules.

tneva82 wrote:
Uhm. Matched play rules apply in matched play, not in crusade. So you need to provide more context on what house rules you are using. Without house rules agreed in advance forget all matched play rules.

Of course.

Currently, from what my FLGS community has agreed upon, we are using just about all of the relevant matched play rules for our Narrative Crusade Campaign. These include rules such as using Stratagems once per phase, only refunding 1CP per battle round, all of the Balance Dataslate rules that have been added over the course of the edition, the "rule of 3" for anything other than Troops (and Dedicated Transports I believe?), and then just about anything and everything else you can think of. The only Matched Play rule that has been disregarded to my knowledge is the requirement to pick Secondary Objectives, as we are only using Agendas as normal. Then we have one additional house rule where we are allowing Chaos forces (Marine variants and Daemons) to have a certain amount of additional free Power Level to summon in each game depending on the size of the game you are playing. This has been the biggest point of contention as some have been using this PL to bring additional units in their Crusade lists. We are escalating at this point (25PL-50PL-75PL, etc.) and there have been a few cases where my opponent's list started at a higher PL than my own and they still used the summoning PL they were given for free, so I was facing roughly 65-70PL in a 50PL game. Had the mission we played been themed around something like that then that would have been fine, but instead I was facing an army that had about 15-20PL of free units in a game that, according to the Matched Play rules we are using, should have been 50PL each with about 10PL extra solely used for summoning once during the game (which I believe is another part of the house rule). Additionally, I believe we are using most of the Narrative Play missions pretty much as written (though the moderator I know changed a few in some way) and there are some missions that are just brutal for certain factions currently, as some of the restrictions in those missions to help "balance" them for the players involved have been removed by the moderator (based on my knowledge) while other restrictions were added to certain missions to make them more interesting. This has led to some missions being fine and others being almost impossible for one side to triumph, which is fine for narrative, but has definitely led to frustration not only on my part but for some of the other players as well. Examples of these have been the Assassinate and Relic missions. Multiple times the moderator has been asked to change one or the other in some way, either adding in the restriction about units moving more than 9" when they have the Relic like it was back in 8th, or changing how points are scored in the Assassinate mission to make things a bit less one-sided for the Attacker. Unfortunately, while these changes have been considered, nothing has actually been done to modify the missions at all.

I hope this at least provides some context for what Matched Play rules we are using in this Crusade Campaign, and the certain issues that have come up so far.

Some sides having extra free points always generates problems. No matter if you play matched play or crusade. Thankfuly when the csm codex comes out, the chance that your community will be okey with csm getting "free" summon points is probably going to drop down to zero as soon as some people played against the new codex.

As far as your Chaos players cheating goes:
1) speak to your moderator. Have him reiterate/re-explain TO THE GROUP exactly how this is supposed to be working.
2) when you play one of those players? Check each other's lists & discuss how summoning works. Make sure your on the same page. If you aren't? Then that game does not happen & you both (together) talk to the moderator.

Do you have a proper pre-game discussion before each game? Make people follow the rules they set, if someone cannot be accommodating then don't accommodate them. You should not hold Jannie to Henrik's standards, or hold Henrik to his competitive standards when you are playing a casual game, you should agree to a set of standards for each game. If you are having trouble remembering your rules you can write flashcards to help you remember. If turn 2 you realise your unit turn 1 had Disgustingly Resilient and should have suffered less damage than it did, then that is too late and you simply have to accept that due to your bad memory you suffered more damage than you should have. If turn 2 you realise you dealt more damage than you should have turn 1 due thinking your weapons having a lower Damage characteristic than you thought then you should agree to surrender the game and then continue until the end of the game and then surrender at that point. If your opponents brought more than the agreed number of PL/pts you can claim victory, if someone brings an invalid list once then check their lists in the future.

If you are having trouble keeping track of all the house rules then let the organizer know it is a problem for you and quit at an opportune time if you aren't enjoying the Crusade. I think using house rules is a great idea, choosing between changing things too often and not often enough to deal with issues is a balancing act, there is no real perfect way to handle things. I don't think Crusade is really playable out of the box, you have to put some constraints on it, that can either be ethereal "don't be a dick rules" or it can be harder "don't summon more than XPL of Daemons". The only house rules I currently play with are take-backs and fast dice for saving throws. I also always try to remind my opponent of things they forget, that way my opponent won't have to go back as much.

I'm a big fan of writing things out in advance.

I print out unit cards before every game to track Agenda tallies and record story notes, but these cards include all the stats, special rules (including purity rules), equipment and buff rules including relics and WL traits.

Additionally, I have colour coded strat cards that make those easier to remember too.

I don't use GW's cards- first off, they are an unnecessary expense, and second, the act of writing out the cards and deciding how to colour code them helps you remember them.

As for Matched rules in Crusade, Armour of Contempt is just about the only one I use... though there are some sub-faction specific ones like the change to Valorous Heart.

Others- like Ro3, the aircraft limit, or not mixing sub-factions limit story potential too much. If my story calls for an air cavalry drop, I'm not going to let a ridiculous, ham-fisted rule designed to "balance" two broken aircraft for tournaments mess with the story.

But then we don't necessarily play campaigns with the intent of a "winner" being chosen at the end of the campaign- we just play to see where everyone's story will go and what will happen.

Thanks for all of this advice guys really! When it comes to all of my games (Matched Play or Crusade) I always make sure to go through my lists and have a pre-game discussion with my opponents. In the original game I mentioned where I messed up and forgot those key abilities my opponent claimed that he did not remember me saying all of what I did during our pre-game discussion. I believed I was pretty clear on what I could do, and always talk through it as well to help me remember it as well, but I have been getting that more and more where my opponent may not remember something that was discussed pre-game and therefore arguing that it shouldn't happen during the game or isn't even an ability I have payed for with PL or whatever.

It's just upsetting because these are all pretty good acquaintances I have always had fun with and I thought we were all on the same page with this campaign about being relatively lax and enjoying it without the rules getting in the way too much. It just seems like that's not really the case, even with the most casual of the players in this Crusade.

I will definitely talk to the Moderator again if things continue like this.