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Ciaphas and Yergen, a two model unit, with named characters and look out sir.

Maybe give Cain's swordsmanship the ability to do mortals to infantry on a hit roll of 4+? Yergen's Melta can fire outside of the shooting phase? Make it a reaction attack to being charged?

Hmm. Off the top of my head, I'd probably do something like this:

CIAPHAS
* Start with a Lord Commissar
* Ditch the refractor field? Don't recall Cain having one in the books. Keep it if I'm mistaken.
* Swap the power sword for a chainsword.
* Swap out the bolt pistol for a laspistol with 24" range to represent Cain's knack for firing at long range with it.

That would honestly probably be enough. The standard Lord Commissar statline (better WS/BS/Wounds) marks Caine as having top tier martial skill. I don't think we really need a special rule to let him do mortal wounds or what have you. A laspistol and chainsword are a less powerful wargear loadout than standard commissars, so we could probably keep his price around the standard 25 points for a commissar.

If you wanted to represent his knack for staying safe/alive, you could maybe give him a FNP or, if you're cheeky, a once per turn 3" move at the start of the enemy shooting phase. (To let him reposition behind some troops if the enemy managed to get an angle on him.) Add on a couple points for that.

JURGEN
* Start with a vet guardsman in carapace(?) armor.
* Pay points for a meltagun as normal.
* I like the idea of him being able to fire overwatch for free. Maybe even hitting on better than a 6+? It would be cute, but this duo shouldn't be a powerhouse. So making opponents accept that they might lose a model if they charge Cain/Jurgen seems reasonable.
* Special rule preventing Cain/Jurgen from being targeted by psychic powers (even friendly ones). 12" aura of -2 to psychic tests (even friendly ones). Daemon units within engagement range of Jurgen suffer -1 to invulnerable saves.

THE DUO
* Make it a two-model unit with the character keyword.
* Cain is really only worth about as much as a standard Commissar. He's more skillful, but he uses weapons with worse stats than a bolt pistol + power sword commissar. I don't recall him consistently doing anything so impressive that it warranted a lethality-improving special rule.
* Jurgen, on the other hand, is frankly a lot more powerful than Cain. He's got a meltagun on a cheap BS3+ platform that also benefits from character protection, He makes it slightly harder for the enemy to cast psychic powers, he can situationally provide a major survivability debuff (if you're facing daemons), and free overwatch (let's say hitting on a 4+?) means that your opponent will be reluctant to send monsters/characters/vehicles after these two. So I feel like we probably ought to charge about 40 points for Jurgen; that's 17 for a melta vet plus 23 for a bunch of situational debuffs plus a little extra for the overwatch trick, plus the benefits of being able to screen a meltagun as a character.
* So we'd be looking at a pricetag of about 65 points for the duo.

They wouldn't be making beatstick characters shake in their boots or gunning down squads of foes. Instead, they'd be doing what a commissar does, irritating psykers, and proving slightly more dangerous than expected when you back them into a corner. Seems about right for the duo.

No-one would take that.

Cain:

What I agree with you:
- Lord Commissar is a good starting point.
- Laspistol and chainsword.

However Cain would either need some seriously good auras or relic weapons, like Gaunt's chainsword. Such as:
- Cains chainsword: S User, AP-1, Damage 2. Each time the bearer fights, it makes D3 additional attacks with this weapon.
- Suspiciously Lucky: This model has a 2+ invulnerable save. If an invulnerable save made for this model is failed, this ability has no effect for the rest of the battle. Maybe not as good as Makari's, but Cain is known to be incredibly lucky.
- Skilful Parry: Each time a melee attack is made against this model, subtract 1 from the hit roll. Taken from SM Chapter Champion.
- Exquisite Swordsman: Each time this model makes a melee attack against an enemy CHARACTER unit, you can re-roll the wound roll. Taken from SM Chapter Champion.
- Aura of Discipline
- Summary Execution

Even with all those Cain would be around 60 - 65 points.

Jurgen:

His statline should be similar to Trooper ‘Try Again’ Bragg. Basically a special character version of a Guard Veteran, except with a melta gun instead of an autocannon, and BS3+ instead of BS5+. Also S3 instead of S4, as Bragg is notoriously strong. In terms of abilities the best one would be:
- Abomination: This model can never be targeted or affected by psychic powers in any way. PSYKER units that are within 18" of JURGEN must subtract 2 from Psychic tests and Deny the Witch tests they take. Taken from the Culexus Assassin, Jurgen is a blank after all.

With all of these I'd only put them around 85 points tops.

Jurgen:

His statline should be similar to Trooper ‘Try Again’ Bragg. Basically a special character version of a Guard Veteran, except with a melta gun instead of an autocannon, and BS3+ instead of BS5+. Also S3 instead of S4, as Bragg is notoriously strong. In terms of abilities the best one would be:
- Abomination: This model can never be targeted or affected by psychic powers in any way. PSYKER units that are within 18" of JURGEN must subtract 2 from Psychic tests and Deny the Witch tests they take. Taken from the Culexus Assassin, Jurgen is a blank after all.

I couldn't be bothered to look up the Culexus's rules. That all seems like a good fit.

Jarms48 wrote:
No-one would take that.

Cain:

What I agree with you:
- Lord Commissar is a good starting point.
- Laspistol and chainsword.

However Cain would either need some seriously good auras or relic weapons, like Gaunt's chainsword. Such as:
- Cains chainsword: S User, AP-1, Each time the bearer fights, Damage 2, it makes D3 additional attacks with this weapon.
- Suspiciously Lucky: This model has a 2+ invulnerable save. If an invulnerable save made for this model is failed, this ability has no effect for the rest of the battle. Maybe not as good as Makari's, but Cain is known to be incredibly lucky.
- Skilful Parry: Each time a melee attack is made against this model, subtract 1 from the hit roll. Taken from SM Chapter Champion.
- Exquisite Swordsman: Each time this model makes a melee attack against an enemy CHARACTER unit, you can re-roll the wound roll. Taken from SM Chapter Champion.
- Aura of Discipline
- Summary Execution

Even with all those Cain would be around 60 - 65 points.

Hmm. Sloppy number crunching says that would let him average about 4 Damage to a T3 Sv4+ target and only about 2 Damage to a marine (ignoring Armor of Contempt). Was ready to be down on giving him so many melee advantages, but the end result seems to be pretty reasonable.

Between his average of 5 attacks, T3, 4+ save (assuming we use the Lord Commisar's stats), WS, BS, to-hit penalty, and his Suspiciously Lucky rule, this guy ends up looking a lot like a 70 point drukhari archon with a -1 to-hit relic. The relic-equivalent rule should probably add a couple points. His AoD and SE compared to the archon's reroll 1's aura should probably subtract a couple. I'd say you did a good job pricing him.

I guess my only nit-picky gripes are:
A.) 3 bespoke special rules plus a custom weapon profile feels a bit busy, but that's a me thing.
B.) Exquisite Swordsman encourages him to charge at enemy characters. Based on the Cain books I've read, that feels a bit out of character. Am I wrong? If not, maybe we could tweak that rule to fit a bit better?

With all of these I'd only put them around 85 points tops.

I don't know. If we put Cain at 60 points, then we're looking at Jurgen making up 25 of those points. If I'm not mistaken, a guard vet with a BS3+ meltagun costs something like 17 points. So that means that for 8 points, you're getting an extra wound (based on Bragg's stats), character protection, and the Abomination rule. So the Jurgen side of this equation feels a bit cheap. Then again swapping these two for a Culexus assassin (more survivability; better melee, hard to compare shooting, and deepstrike) only costs 15 more points, so what do I know?

Their shooting would be pretty pathetic for 85 points. It’s literally just a single BS3+ melta and BS2+ laspistol. Compare it to any other Guard unit, such as a command squad with 4 meltas for 65 points.

As you said, even their melee output is pretty meh. Basically the only thing you’re paying for is a fluffy fun character who can be fairly tanky with a 2++ until they fail it the first time. Which you could possibly whiff immediately if you get bad luck.

a not really serious addition: whenever Cain saves with his incredible luck, he MUST consolidate towards the next, more dangerous enemy unit.

Jarms48 wrote:
Their shooting would be pretty pathetic for 85 points. It’s literally just a single BS3+ melta and BS2+ laspistol. Compare it to any other Guard unit, such as a command squad with 4 meltas for 65 points.

As you said, even their melee output is pretty meh. Basically the only thing you’re paying for is a fluffy fun character who can be fairly tanky with a 2++ until they fail it the first time. Which you could possibly whiff immediately if you get bad luck.

Incorrect. Experience with archons has taught me that you will almost always fail the very first 2+ invul you take, or else you will never fail a single one all game. ;D

Thing is, Jurgen isn't a Bragg shooter. He's not Ghost Material, but he's damn good. He shoots a gas cap off a gas tank at extreme range with just iron sights. The books also make him out to be a fricking SNIPER with the Melta, if that even makes sense. He take the head off a charging Nid while riding a motorcycle.

I'd give Jurgen a BS2+, and WS6+. But give him the Sniper rule, with character targeting.

Giving Cain the ability to deal Mortal wounds would tie in with his ability to defeat far greater opponents than he should be able to.

A Ork Warboss in single combat.
A raging Black Legionnaire in single combat.
Countless Warrior Forms including a horde of Gaunts at various times, a Mawloc, several PureStrain Stealers, a Patriarch, several Necron warriors, and a Tech Marine in a training gym.

He needs some form of "Instinctive fighting" If your opponent is of a higher LD than Cain, Cain get's Fight First.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Thing is, Jurgen isn't a Bragg shooter. He's not Ghost Material, but he's damn good. He shoots a gas cap off a gas tank at extreme range with just iron sights. The books also make him out to be a fricking SNIPER with the Melta, if that even makes sense. He take the head off a charging Nid while riding a motorcycle.

I'd give Jurgen a BS2+, and WS6+. But give him the Sniper rule, with character targeting.

I know Jarms is making good points about the unit's offensive output not being all that impressive for its cost, but giving Jurgen the ability to snipe characters on 2s with a meltagun while being himself untargetable through screens sounds like a feelsbad combination.

Giving Cain the ability to deal Mortal wounds would tie in with his ability to defeat far greater opponents than he should be able to.

A Ork Warboss in single combat.
A raging Black Legionnaire in single combat.
Countless Warrior Forms including a horde of Gaunts at various times, a Mawloc, several PureStrain Stealers, a Patriarch, several Necron warriors, and a Tech Marine in a training gym.

Maybe I simply haven't read the books where a lot of these feats happen. I recall him backing off from a single bloodletter rather than engaging it in melee. I remember him barely hanging on against some genestealers and doing okay against some gaunts. I remember him barely holding off some daemonettes that were forced to come at him across a thin pathway. I know he's an impressive fighter, but is he so impressive that consistently killing patriarchs and warbosses in a duel is a thing that warrants reflecting in his rules? Or were those more "one in a million" bits of luck that could- on a meta level- be chalked up to lucky dice rolling? Genuinely asking. Maybe he acts more swashbuckly in the books I haven't read.

He needs some form of "Instinctive fighting" If your opponent is of a higher LD than Cain, Cain get's Fight First.

Well, with the Ld of a Lord Commissar, that would mean the rule would basically only activate against necrons certain HQ units, right? And would also mean that he might be faster on the draw than Lelith Hesperax or a Keeper of Secrets, neither of which feels right.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Thing is, Jurgen isn't a Bragg shooter. He's not Ghost Material, but he's damn good. He shoots a gas cap off a gas tank at extreme range with just iron sights. The books also make him out to be a fricking SNIPER with the Melta, if that even makes sense. He take the head off a charging Nid while riding a motorcycle.

I know he’s not Bragg. That’s why he has a 3+ instead of a 5+ to hit.

Though I suppose you could give him 2+ as well, I wouldn’t give him sniper though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:

Maybe I simply haven't read the books where a lot of these feats happen. I recall him backing off from a single bloodletter rather than engaging it in melee. I remember him barely hanging on against some genestealers and doing okay against some gaunts. I remember him barely holding off some daemonettes that were forced to come at him across a thin pathway. I know he's an impressive fighter, but is he so impressive that consistently killing patriarchs and warbosses in a duel is a thing that warrants reflecting in his rules? Or were those more "one in a million" bits of luck that could- on a meta level- be chalked up to lucky dice rolling? Genuinely asking. Maybe he acts more swashbuckly in the books I haven't read.

He also held his own against 2 Khorne Beserkers from memory. Long enough to kill one too. Then Jurgen blasted the other with the melta.

So, I think what I gave him should be fine. If we go back to the Chapter Champion there is one rule I didn’t give him. Which is:

Chapter Champion: This model has an Attacks characteristic of 5 and a Leadership characteristic of 9.

Mainly because 1) he’s not a Chapter Champion and 2) he already has Ld 9. So you could probably find some other special rule for him to either buff his statline or melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
He needs some form of "Instinctive fighting" If your opponent is of a higher LD than Cain, Cain get's Fight First.

This could work too.

See, I feel like Cain should have a low leadership, and a gimmick with it. "Coward's luck" or something. Give him 5Ld and if he's less than his opponent, he can make a bonus 6" move AWAY from that unit, if he chooses.

To kind of reinforce he's always looking for an escape route.

Wyldhunt wrote:

That would honestly probably be enough. The standard Lord Commissar statline (better WS/BS/Wounds) marks Caine as having top tier martial skill. I don't think we really need a special rule to let him do mortal wounds or what have you. A laspistol and chainsword are a less powerful wargear loadout than standard commissars, so we could probably keep his price around the standard 25 points for a commissar.

This is 9th ed. Special rules by bucketload is name of the game.