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Well, at least the bonebreak gets a free red rolla and the free da boomer upgrade is better on a gunwagon that on a battlewagon now...

But no, they won't fix it. /thread


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:
I guess as far as the gun carrying versions go?
1)
I think the question shouldn't be is it worth losing transport capacity. It should be: is that bs4 worth the 25pts?
As most Ork players generally complain about their poor shooting....

+1 BS doesn't turn a battlewagon into a good shooting unit though. Even in crusade where I can run fully decked out gunwagons with da booma, lobba and four big shootas at no extra cost it struggle to shoot as well as a scrap jet that is just half its PL. And it doesn't compare at all to actual good units like the wazzbom and kill rig.

Considering how 4 battlewagons was relatively normal in 4th-6th and 7th even tried to make you run five of them, I'm not too sad to at least have the option to run more than three of them.

 Blackie wrote:
I have 4 wagons now, used to play 3-5 wagons during 5th and 7th but now I can't justify more than two. Maybe 3 if I also bring the kannonwagon, but I've done it just in a couple of games so far.

So instead of having 3 different profiles from the codex, with a decent one and two crap profiles, I'd rather lose the ability of fielding all my tanks if 1-3 wagons become really good, or at least just significantly better than the current battlewagon. And with FW there's always the option to add more wagons for those who want 4+ of them.

No thank you, I rather play bad models than being forced to sell them.

FW also isn't a solution for anything. All of it is going to disappear over the next years. The supa kannon is the last survivor of a whole slew of gun options, it might not even make it to 10th.

Seriously, the battlewagon should be close to the rigs in terms of native abilties/firepower, and a good start could be giving the bonebreaka and gunwagon bonuses to the regular wagon.

The alternative is to make wagons really cheap but it's something I loathe since the game is already massive in scale and it's gatekeeping for new players, who have to buy a 100$ model that only worths a little amount of points.

Sadly, that wouldn't work. No mater how cheap you make it, it still doesn't shoot as well as a scrapjet - and you can't make it as cheap as a scrapjet for obvious reasons.

I'm thinking about a 140-150 points model with built in:

- T8, 5++ and damage reduction by 1 against everything
- 4 big shootas and one kannon or zzaap. Killkannon might replace the main gun for 15-20 points. Killkannon is 2D6 S10 AP-3 D3.
- +1 to hit if the model is stationary
- + D6 attacks on the charge if the model's equipped with a rolla

The kannonwagon would be cheaper, like 130-140 points since no melee abilities and less transport capacity. Main gun would be buffed though and all the defensive stats from the regular wagon would also be shared.

Kannon and zzap gun seriously need buffs, too. They should be on par with mek guns.
Some upgrade also need changes - grabbin' klaw and wreckin ball need to do more attacks and hit better.

In general I like your idea to have the three variants more specialized:
Battlewagon has 20 transport capacity, WS4+/BS5+ like buggies, always open topped
Gunwagon has whatever capacity (12, 6, does it matter?), WS4+/BS4+, periscope for main gun as you suggested, mandatory 'ard case
Bonebreaka has 12 transport capacity, WS3+/BS5+, mandatory 'ard case and deff rolla

Deff rolla no longer hits better, but does two hit rolls per attack
Wrekin' ball does 3 attacks
Grabbin Klaw does d3 attacks, PK profile, any hit prevents vehicles and monsters from falling back like it did in the past
Kannon does d6 shots/blast for shell and 3d6 shots for frag
Zap gun get the zagzap profile back - hit automatically, S9+ does 3 mortal wounds
Killkannon as you suggested, though S9 is probably more in line for a gun firing regular shells
Bring back grot riggers for 5+ FNP
Bring back reinforced ram for +1 to armor, mutually exclusive with deff rolla
Bring back stikkbomb flinga - there are bits for it in the kit, it should have the rules

 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


No thank you, I rather play bad models than being forced to sell them.

I don't think there would be any need of selling models. FW wagon could stay for years, we don't know when or even if GW is going to remove it.

Remember the liftawagon? It was still on sale when 9th edition was released.
Sure, the kannon wagon could stay for years. It could also be gone by the end of next year.

Then there's the loadout argument: unless your wagons are fully magnetized or are kitted in the exact same way having more models than the limit (which by the way it's only for matched and 2000 points, you can always play more outside those formats) shouldn't be an issue anyway.

For example out of my 4 wagons only two have the rolla, and only one has a kill kannon. With one profile and Ro3 I might not be able to field all of them, assuming that the FW variant also disappears, but realistically I wouldn't want to field all of them anyway due to being assembled in a different way.

Who on earth would ruin one of the most well-designed and modular kits GW has ever done by glueing the options to it
You can literally switch between all options without needing a single magnet, as most of them are designed to snap in place. Even for more top-heavy options like the grabbin' klaw, three or four coins or a few pieces of sprue are sufficient to keep them balanced. This was common knowledge for as long as battlewagons remain in the competitive spotlight.
Literally the only thing you have to commit to is a turret gun - and if you played during 5th, you almost definitely didn't use the then absolutely terrible killkannon.
Luckily, I have two turrets fully magnetized as well as three spares (the turret sprue was available for 3€ back then), so I got three kannons, two zap guns and two fully magnetized turrets to go, because back then battlewagons were able to have two turrets.
I even got wreckin' balls and boarding planks for two of them.

You're also wrong for the model limit applying only in matched formats - it applies to literally all relevant ones except crusade, which limits them in different ways.

It's basically the same non issue most players owning flyers have: they're limited to 2 but, unless someone has 3 flyers of the same kind or 3+ fully magnetized models, a player can have up to 8 flyers, 2 of each kind, without being forced to sell anything.

Ironically, I also own three fully magnetized fliers. I still think the flyer change was good for the game, plus you can actually sell fully magnetized models at a good price.

You have definitely have weird ideas for what people do and what they don't do. If I go to a store here, literally every vehicle larger than a landspeeder has all its options magnetized. Some people even magnetize their terminators and havocs. GW's kits are too expensive to replace them every time they decide to randomly buff one of the options.
Not magnetizing your models is considered to be asking for your models to be invalidated. Everyone who experienced getting a new codex or edition once will not fall into that trap twice.

Just like you claimed that no one ever ran 9 voidweavers in a casual setting - yes, they did, people just snapped the extra gun on their fully magnetized starweavers and were ready to go.

I think that if the model's bad I wouldn't field it anyway or at best I'd just field 1 or 2, like I'm currently doing, so I might sell the shelved ones anyway. The bonebreaka and the gunwagon are so bad that they're basically a non existing option.

To keep multiple profiles the wagons need to be significantly specialized. A single buff to either melee or shooting is not enough to justify multiple variants. They'd need unique gear (or fixed loadout) and unique special abilities.

To not be shelved, they just need to not overcharge for trivial buffs. If bonebreakas and gunwagons were just 10 points over battlewagons they would totally be an option, especially with their kustom jobs now being free.

To be good, they need more and I agree with you, but the vanilla wagon isn't good either.