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So, Nephilim is incentivizing people to take a free Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, what with it being free if it shares a faction with the warlord and all.

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachments, however, do not get their army's Detachment Abilities.

On the other hand, the Astraeus specifically gets Space Marine Doctrines.

So, how does this all work in practice, in (say) an Iron Hands Space Marine Army? I have a theory, but would like a double-check from others to make certain I'm not missing something.

My current thinking is this:

Take a basic (Patrol/Battalion) Detachment of Iron Hands Marines. Put the Warlord in there, do whatever. It gets the Space Marines Doctrine Ability (the general Space Marines Doctrines stuff plus the Iron Hands re-roll 1's in Devastator) and Chapter Tactic (6+++ FNP and double wounds for bracketing). So far, so normal.

Then take a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment and put an Iron Hands Astraeus in there. It costs a bunchaton of points but no CP, thanks to Nephilim Rules- the Astraeus shares the Iron Hands Chapter Faction with the Warlord. Right.

Because of the rules around Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachments, the Astraeus doesn't gain the Detachment Abilities- so no Chapter Tactic for it. (Dang. No FNP, no double wounds for bracketing. Ah well. Maybe fixed next edition?)

The presence of Space Marine Combat Doctrines, explicitly on the Astraeus, however... it definitely gains the basic Marines Doctrines stuff (extra AP depending on turn)... but does it gain the Iron Hand's Doctrine Ability (re-roll 1's for Heavy Weapons in Devastator Doctrine)? I'm inclined to say yes, but this is the really wooly area that I wanted to check on.

Have I got it all right? Or is any part of the above incorrect? Please let me know, thanks!

The rules glossary defines detachment abilities as a rule that is available when you have a particular KEYWORD. Does the IH reroll 1s in the devastator phase require a particular keyword ? Yes, it does, its IRON HANDS. Therefore its a detachment ability, the astraeus doesnt benefit from it, no other rule says otherwise.

Detachment Rules: Detachment rules are ones that are available to a player for having a particular KEYWORD Detachment in their army. This keyword will be specified by the Detachment rules in question. Detachment rules can include Detachment abilities, Stratagems, Warlord Traits, Relics, and so on.

Okay, so it gets Combat Doctrines because it's an Army-wide Adeptus Astartes ability, but not the Iron Hands add-on to it because that's a Detachment Ability?

RedX wrote:
Okay, so it gets Combat Doctrines because it's an Army-wide Adeptus Astartes ability, but not the Iron Hands add-on to it because that's a Detachment Ability?

It gets doctrines because it says so on its datasheet. Question is, are doctrines are detachment ability, or not ? Because, by definition, they require a certain keyword in your army, making them a detachment rule. But, is a detachment rule the same as a detachment ability ?

Requiring every unit in your army have a specific keyword doesn't make something a detachment ability. That only applies for something that requires every unit in a detachment (with exceptions) have a specific keyword.

That being said, what exactly does the Codex Supplement state for Calculated Fury? Is it listed as a Detachment Ability?

The Iron Hands Codex says:

If your army is Battle-forged, then in addition to the Detachment abilities gained from Codex: Space Marines, units in your army with the Combat Doctrines ability gain the Calculated Fury ability so long as, with the exception of UNALIGNED units, every unit from your army is an IRON HANDS unit or every unit from your army is from the same Iron Hands successor Chapter (see below).

Looks like this is indeed a Detachment Ability, so does not effect a Super-heavy Aux Detachment. (Though three Astraeuses in a Super-Heavy Detachment would.)

Combat Doctrines from Codex Space Marines, on the other hand, says:

If every unit from your army has the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword (excluding AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM and UNALIGNED units), this unit gains a bonus (see below) depending on which combat doctrine is active for your army.

Not a Detachment Ability, for the simple reason of it not caring about what's in your Detachments- just the whole army. The Astraeus doesn't break this because it's also ADEPTUS ASTARTES, and gets it because it has the Angels of Death Ability.

RedX wrote:
The Iron Hands Codex says:

If your army is Battle-forged, then in addition to the Detachment abilities gained from Codex: Space Marines, units in your army with the Combat Doctrines ability gain the Calculated Fury ability so long as, with the exception of UNALIGNED units, every unit from your army is an IRON HANDS unit or every unit from your army is from the same Iron Hands successor Chapter (see below).

Looks like this is indeed a Detachment Ability, so does not effect a Super-heavy Aux Detachment. (Though three Astraeuses in a Super-Heavy Detachment would.)

Dare I what the page/section header that rule is in? The rule itself is a bit ambiguous as to whether it is a detachment ability or an army ability.

 alextroy wrote:

RedX wrote:
The Iron Hands Codex says:

If your army is Battle-forged, then in addition to the Detachment abilities gained from Codex: Space Marines, units in your army with the Combat Doctrines ability gain the Calculated Fury ability so long as, with the exception of UNALIGNED units, every unit from your army is an IRON HANDS unit or every unit from your army is from the same Iron Hands successor Chapter (see below).

Looks like this is indeed a Detachment Ability, so does not effect a Super-heavy Aux Detachment. (Though three Astraeuses in a Super-Heavy Detachment would.)

Dare I what the page/section header that rule is in? The rule itself is a bit ambiguous as to whether it is a detachment ability or an army ability.

'Abilities', page 56 of 'Codex Supplement: Iron Hands'.

If the rules don't say they are detachment abilities and it isn't tied to units being part of an Iron Hand detachment, I see no reason it wouldn't work for models with Combat Doctrines in a SHAD.

 alextroy wrote:
If the rules don't say they are detachment abilities and it isn't tied to units being part of an Iron Hand detachment, I see no reason it wouldn't work for models with Combat Doctrines in a SHAD.

The box labled "Codex Supplement Combat Doctrine Bonuses" explicitly calls those abilities detachment abilities.

Which is why I asked what the headers around the ability are. If it is in a section explicitly titled "Detachment Abilities" then they don't apply to SHAD.

Just to muddy the waters a bit:

"...units in your army with the Combat Doctrines ability gain the Calculated Fury ability..."

It doesn't use the word 'detachment'.

My reading of it is that the Astraeus does gain the Calculated Fury ability as it just requires that the unit have the Combat Doctrines ability, which the Astraeus does.

One issue is that it is using rules from two different editions that may not line up perfectly.

Huh, that's a good point.

Still, it's under "Detachment Abilities", which the SHAD doesn't get- whether they apply to the Detachment or the whole army.

Yanno, I'll ask my opponent/judge on a case-by-case.