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Army Of Renown has caught a number of peoples' attention lately and suggestions abound.

But, what makes an armed force WORTHY of Renown? The simplest answer seems to be that the army's Player has sacrificed Efficiency for Flavor, given up something valuable in exchange for Fluff. If I am wrong, please let me know.

In the Necron faction, one can now take Dynasty Rules AND also make the associated Command Protocols specific to that Dynasty permanent.

For instance, if Mephrit Dynasty makes Protocol of the Vengeful Stars their perm, the benefits add up quickly.

= = Add 3" to the Range characteristic of ranged weapons (excluding Pistols).
= = Ranged attacks at half range increase AP by 1 additive.
= = Ranged attacks, on an unmodified wound roll of 6, increase AP by 1 additive.
= = Targets of ranged attack within half range do not receive the benefits of cover to their saving throw.

Pretty good,
If one made a Necron Canoptek Army Of Renown, they could forfeit this powerful set of advantages in favor of ...

= = Circumstance of awakening, the Ancients Stir, add 1" to the Move characteristic of Canoptek models.
= = Canoptek pile-in and consolidate moves increase from 3" to 4".
= = Dynastic Tradition, Rad Wreathed, gain Rad-wreathed (Aura) : all non-Vehicle enemy units within 1" subtract 1 from their Toughness.
= = Protocol of the Conquering Tyrant, Directive 1: Add 3" to the range of this unit’s aura abilities

Now THAT is flavor. Giving up all the possible double benefits of matching Dynasty to Protocol in exchange for one inch of movement and a four inch -1 radioactive aura. Mephrit truly does explode on 6's in the first case, Canopteks gain a rather unique set of abilities with the other.

The Canoptek Necrons above cripple normal play with [1], the requirement to use only A). Technomancers. or B). Canoptek units in the armylist, coupled with this [2], mandatory combo of The Ancients Stir, Rad-Wreathed, and Conquering Tyrant Directive 1, to the point that I would easily agree that they deserve some "Army Of Renown" benefits.

That is one example that I can think of for sacrificing Efficiency in exchange for Flavor.

Is there a standing agreement as to what degree of kneecapping is required to justify Army Of Renown status?

I don't think there's really a firm guideline on how much you have to give up. The value of giving up units X, Y, and Z will vary a lot based on...
* How many units you still have access that can fill the same role.
* Datasheet updates that make those units more or less cost-efficient.
* Game rule and meta changes that make those units more or less cost-efficient.

It's all very loosey goosey.

I think that, rather than taking the Army of Renown approach, 40k might be better off getting rid of armies of renown, doctrines, and even chapter tactics as they are and then introducing "army themes." The idea being that "army themes" give you access to various new mechanics with baked-in drawbacks. Each theme should be a horizontal move compared to the others and should probably be less overall powerful than the stacking benefits of AoR, doctrine equivalents, and chapter tactics that we have now.

So instead of giving your faction's bike themed army a bunch of passive bonuses that make them more tough or lethal, you unlock bikes-as-troops and the Velocity mechanic. Velocity being a system where you gain defensive buffs and bonuses to melee on the charge when you move your bikes and vehicles fast enough, but you can only turn so far during a move (depending on how fast you're going) and risk crashing into scenery.

Which is an overly-wordy way of saying you get something thematic that makes your army play differently but also doesn't make your army (much) stronger. Horizontal thematic benefits instead of vertical ones.

The Ancients Stir is just bad, it's got nothing to do with the combo being necessarily bad, instead of giving the army an AoR you could just buff The Ancients Stir. If you don't like Errata then you can just figure out a name for your Dynasty (or steal one) like the Nekthyst Dynasty and give it the rules for Ancients Stir, Rad Wreathed and whatever additional bonus you think is needed to balance the dynasty as an option. A Canoptek army is not necessarily bad, there is no lack of synergy and no anti-synergy that makes it so. There is no massive synergy between Destroyer Lords and Wraiths like previously that demand you take the two together. You can just choose to take units that you think fit together thematically. The only problem is that 6" pre-game move is better than every other option and ObSec is better than every other option. I redesigned the Necron Chapter Tactics if you are interested.

There is zero need for AdMech to have the AoR they do, because they are not giving up anything of value in exchange for fluff. Taking an army without Skitarii or without Cult Mechanicus could work, there is no special synergy between the two that makes a combination better than solely relying on one or the other. Adding the two AoR to AdMech just means that a combination is awful so you have to go with one powerful AoR or the other powerful AoR. To find armies where it would be appropriate to add Army of Renown rules you need an army that needs additional rules to represent fluff or an army with a balance paradox.

An army archetype that needs additional rules would be Necrons mind-controlling human allies because taking those two factions together is not allowed. An army archetype that needs a rules boost to make up for a balance paradox would be Triarch Stalkers in a list with the Silent King because both let you re-roll 1s to hit with shooting so taking Triarch Stalkers in a list with the Silent King would usually be a bad idea. Theoretically Necron custom dynasties could have balance paradoxes if Pitiless Hunters was really good with Healthy Paranoia but Pitiless Hunters was bad with Arise Against the Interlopers. But as long as Pitiless Hunters is worse than ObSec for every army discussing which combinations including Pitiless Hunters deserve cool extra rules is pointless IMO, make it good in the first place.

Some combinations are also oddly effective, you wouldn't expect the most successful Ultramarine successors to generally focus on melee buffs when Ultramarines generally buffs shooting, but that's how it is. The only thing to do is to hypothesize and test things out.

At the risk of steering us off-topic, I do like the idea of rules for humans that work with 'crons. Part of my dynasty's fluff is that my overlord (overlady?) encourages Star Gate style human worshippers/cannon fodder whom she sees as basically trainable pets.

Warriors are hard to destroy, but they do get permanently destroyed. And once they're gone, they can't really be replaced. These goofy little meatbags, on the other hand, will steadily restore their own numbers if you give them a little food, water, and oxygen. Having a couple cargo ships full of them when you attack a planet can mitigate an unnecessary waste of warriors when you just need a wave of bodies somewhere.

The "pre-game" Relentlessly Expansionist big step forward of up to 6 inches (6 inches not guaranteed and infantry have only a 5 inch move stat) happens before the first Command Phase when the Wills and the Chronometry takes place. Wouldn't being able to take an action while still shooting or whatever make more sense as the game is won or lost on points?

If I could get an Obelisk into mid-field before turn one and fire 24 shots of STR 8 DAM 2 Tesla every single turn in the game, I'd be tickled pink. Maybe buffing only what the Tournament leaders take "de rigueur" isn't such a good idea.

People may want Destroyer AoR or Canoptek AoR for fun.

TomWilton wrote:
The "pre-game" Relentlessly Expansionist big step forward of up to 6 inches (6 inches not guaranteed and infantry have only a 5 inch move stat) happens before the first Command Phase when the Wills and the Chronometry takes place.

The only Infantry that cannot get a 6" move is Plasmancers, Psychomancers, control node Technomancers and Cryptothralls, everyone else can benefit from Lord/Overlord's +1M.

Wouldn't being able to take an action while still shooting or whatever make more sense as the game is won or lost on points?

Are you referring to the Nihilakh dynasty? We have seen one list top a GT so it is possible it is being undervalued by most, but as you're pointing out it's a game won on victory points, getting to pre-game move makes it easier to control more objectives and limit the amount of objectives your opponent can do and sometimes even the actions your opponent can use.

If I could get an Obelisk into mid-field before turn one and fire 24 shots of STR 8 DAM 2 Tesla every single turn in the game, I'd be tickled pink.

But you can, the pre-game move happens before the first turn, so the Obelisk won't have moved in your turn even if you pre-game moved it. The other option is +3" from Mephrit, which worked for me in all 3 of my casual games where I tested out triple Obelisk. The main reason it won't work in competitive 40k is because of the insane tables that are needed for armies to jump from place to place without ever exposing themselves one time to an 18-24" murdergun unit.

Maybe buffing only what the Tournament leaders take "de rigueur" isn't such a good idea.

Have I suggested doing that?

People may want Destroyer AoR or Canoptek AoR for fun.

Why is it fun to have more rules? I have made a Destroyer army and a Canoptek army, what is stopping you?

1). The ruling that Super Heavy, Fortification, and Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachments can not benefit from Dynastic Codes was quoted to me. This is incorrect?

2). Relentlessly Expansionist says "At the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins, units with this code can make a Normal Move of up to 6".".

My Will Be Done "In your Command phase, you can select one friendly <DYNASTY> CORE unit within 9" of this model. ..."

Relentless March's move happens before any Command Phase, so it can not be affected retroactively.. Perhaps you meant Relentless March and instead wrote MWBD or The Lord's Will? If I misread you writing the words "Relentless March", then I sincerely apologize. I was wrong. But if you wrote the Wills, then the statement stands

3). I had read was that these two, Canoptek and Destroyer, were the ones that fans wanted to see codified. It generally involved Scarabs being reclassified at a Troops choice. And involved some shennanigans with Flayed Ones who can insert themselves at will into any battle even when their presence is not wanted. Nothing is stopping me. I play Canoptek or Canoptek/Destroyer only armies all the time (provided Technomancers are included as an exception to the rules). Canoptek Spyders and Canoptek Wraiths being able to be brought back with Rites Of Reanimation opens whole new vistas for my armies. So does permanently installing Protocol of the Sudden Storm, Directive 2 "If this unit is performing an action, it can still make attacks with ranged weapons" as always on for every Necron on the board. The question is what flavor?.

By the Way, doesn't a Relentless Expansionist move in the first turn make claiming to not have moved that Obelisk this turn untrue?

TomWilton wrote:
1). The ruling that Super Heavy, Fortification, and Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachments can not benefit from Dynastic Codes was quoted to me. This is incorrect?

It only applies to Auxiliary and Super Heavy Auxiliary AFAIK. That's why Knights can benefit from their Chapter Tactics and why I said I brought 3 Obelisks.

2)

MWBD is irrelevant.

Relentless March (Aura): While a friendly <DYNASTY> CORE unit is within 6" of this model, each time that unit is selected to make a Normal Move or Advance, until the end of the phase, add 1" to the Move characteristic of models in that unit.

3). I had read was that these two, Canoptek and Destroyer, were the ones that fans wanted to see codified. It generally involved Scarabs being reclassified at a Troops choice. And involved some shennanigans with Flayed Ones who can insert themselves at will into any battle even when their presence is not wanted. Nothing is stopping me. I play Canoptek or Canoptek/Destroyer only armies all the time (provided Technomancers are included as an exception to the rules). Canoptek Spyders and Canoptek Wraiths being able to be brought back with Rites Of Reanimation opens whole new vistas for my armies.

If you are already playing the kind of list you want to play then why add more rules? Scarabs don't need to be Troops.

So does permanently installing Protocol of the Sudden Storm, Directive 2 "If this unit is performing an action, it can still make attacks with ranged weapons" as always on for every Necron on the board. The question is what flavor?.

I don't see this as flavourful, it's just rules bloat and you can change which one you get from game to game.

By the Way, doesn't a Relentless Expansionist move in the first turn make claiming to not have moved that Obelisk this turn untrue?

It explicitly happens before the first turn, it's the same reason why it doesn't stop Doomstalkers and Doomsday Arks from using their S10 profile.

Destroyers rumored to be in upcoming white dwarf.. so far one out of two

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/807289.page thread discussing it and a link to a Reddit thread going through the leaked rules. I think it was basically designed to get around the previous limitations of the Command Protocols by changing the demand from a Noble to a Destroyer Cult character... Except that demand has been lifted anyway so the entire thing is pointless bloat.

Honestly armies or renowned should be cut from matched play. How often do you see any of the average or bad ones? Almost never. They’re only taken to try and eek out an advantage when the benefits outweigh the restrictions. Frankly there’s too many “special” rules already anyways.

You could simply remove them from matched play or put them like the old forge world rules where you need an opponents consent to run them. Personally I’d suggest a massive overhaul. Armies of renown should be attached to campaign books and give a breakdown of the total forces used in that particular theatre. You can create your army based on the forces available but every unit destroyed is removed from the campaign.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Honestly armies or renowned should be cut from matched play. How often do you see any of the average or bad ones? Almost never.

That's exactly why armies of renown need to exist, in casual play you can bring bad fluffy lists, armies of renown makes it possible to make fluffy armies balanced that would otherwise be bad without affecting the balance of other army compositions. GW has just decided some terrible candidates for AoR status, because they are printing rules to keep themselves in business rather than printing rules to make the game better.

Are you suggesting adapting them to a more restrictive game type where you have to bring a more limited force organization?

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Are you suggesting adapting them to a more restrictive game type where you have to bring a more limited force organization?

No, the individual AoR can limit force organization as appropriate for fluff and necessary for balance and they should be legal to play in matched play. Allow them on an individual basis into your crusades or open-play games.

 vict0988 wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Are you suggesting adapting them to a more restrictive game type where you have to bring a more limited force organization?

No, the individual AoR can limit force organization as appropriate for fluff and necessary for balance and they should be legal to play in matched play. Allow them on an individual basis into your crusades or open-play games.

Players always have and always will find a way to express themselves within the rules. The point is that the game is fun, the fluff is fun, the genre is fun, and 40K is VERY lucrative for GW. Some people seem to only be concerned with how they can make their army penultimately successful at the highest level of tournament competition and nothing else. Sneering at Open Play or Matched Play that is done in a suboptimal fashion.

Yes, we can and do write up all kinds of armylists tailored to taste. Nothing prevents a person from playing a "Destroyer Cult Only" list. It is just that being the biggest winner at the biggest of tournaments IS NOT what motivates most players. Having the "Powers On High" at GW sanction a little leveling of the playing field for fluff-based or personal-taste-based armies really appeals to folks. Not forcing everyone to bow to one standard, but saying that if you can have a -1 in this category in exchange for a +1 in that category. Ultimately, the best General will win without being the flavor of the week and without cheese.

It is not pointless bloat to add a little flavor to the game. What's next? Banning anyone using a less than perfect OOB?

TomWilton wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
Are you suggesting adapting them to a more restrictive game type where you have to bring a more limited force organization?

No, the individual AoR can limit force organization as appropriate for fluff and necessary for balance and they should be legal to play in matched play. Allow them on an individual basis into your crusades or open-play games.

Players always have and always will find a way to express themselves within the rules. The point is that the game is fun, the fluff is fun, the genre is fun, and 40K is VERY lucrative for GW. Some people seem to only be concerned with how they can make their army penultimately successful at the highest level of tournament competition and nothing else. Sneering at Open Play or Matched Play that is done in a suboptimal fashion.

Yes, we can and do write up all kinds of armylists tailored to taste. Nothing prevents a person from playing a "Destroyer Cult Only" list. It is just that being the biggest winner at the biggest of tournaments IS NOT what motivates most players. Having the "Powers On High" at GW sanction a little leveling of the playing field for fluff-based or personal-taste-based armies really appeals to folks. Not forcing everyone to bow to one standard, but saying that if you can have a -1 in this category in exchange for a +1 in that category. Ultimately, the best General will win without being the flavor of the week and without cheese.

It is not pointless bloat to add a little flavor to the game.

I am advocating for levelling the playing field with armies of renown, I don't think any of GW's AoR so far have done that. Tyranid stampede = completely overpowered. AdMech sub-faction AoR = mixed armies are trash. I don't see how the new Necrons AoR adds much flavour and I think rules need to meet a minimum level of quality before they are released by GW because otherwise, the game becomes way too bloated. Command Protocols needed to be changed to fit an army without Nobles 6 months ago, it's just not the case any longer, hence why the Destroyer AoR adds pointless bloat to the game.

What's next? Banning anyone using a less than perfect OOB?

Orders of battle are a 30k thing right? What are you talking about and why do you think I want to ban them? If an OOB is bad I'd want it to be buffed, not banned. Rules need a certain level of impact to be produced, a unit getting to re-roll Advance rolls of 1 is so weak and meaningless that it isn't worth the ink to put it on a datasheet, either the unit qualifies to get a better Movement stat, a more significant ability or the ability isn't that important to have in the first place.

Thanks for the relevant And coherent answer. I think this covers it all. Except for some old guy grandstanding when a canoptek AoR shows up.