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I wanted to talk about a few things and just get some perspectives from some people.

First, I want to discuss pre-game command points, and, to a lesser extent, stratagems.

I recently played in a tournament that was running the Nephilim matched play rules. Arguably one of the biggest changes Nephilim made was the number of command points you receive pre-game and the introduction of even your initial relic and warlord traits costing one CP each. This resulted in much more 'tame' army construction as people didn't have enough command points at 1K or even 2K to totally ramp up their armies with extra relics and warlord traits as has been the trend for a long time in 8th and 9th edition.

I enjoyed the more 'straightforward' feel that this created, but I would almost say that it doesn't go far enough. During one of my 4-player/ 1K each team games, a Blood Angels player used a single CP to move a squad of jetpack DC w/ TH forward 12" before the game even began. This player also had first turn, resulting in a guaranteed turn-1 charge on one of our best units, which was then destroyed before we actually got to do anything with it. The smaller board of 9th edition basically meant that the BA player had a 22" move (10" deployment + 12" pre-game move) BEFORE the start of the actual game with absolutely no drawbacks beside spending a CP to do it. That seems drastically unbalanced as many armies simply have nothing they can do against that. We could have, and should have, set up screeners, but again that strategy only really works for armies with cheap chaff units, which many armies don't have. If we had screened with space marines we would have then lost our ability to have obsec units to contest objectives with, and in the secondary-objective points frenzy of 9th edition that really doesn't help you very much.

My Proposed Solution:

Option 1(Nuclear option):

A two-part solution where we completely stop the generation of pre-game command points. Every player receives 2 CP in the first command phase of the game and 1 CP in the opponent's command phase (this would result in player two having 3CP after player one's first Command Phase). In addition, we return to the system where relics, and now warlord traits, cost points instead of paying CPs to equip them with no way to generate additional relics or warlord traits for your army (which has the added benefit on cutting down even further on the number of wonky warlord trait interactions).

Option 2 (probably more realistic):

Give every army a stratagem that allows you to target a unit that made a pre-game move with a shooting attack prior to the start of the game. Make it 1 CP to align to the cost of pre-game move stratagems. At the very least this would make unit placement vital during the pre-game move so that you don't just set a hardcore CC unit 6" away from an enemy unit before the game starts.

What are your thoughts?

I don't see a problem with your first suggestion, but honestly from the perspective of a casual player you were crippled first turn because official 40k doesn't have a reaction system. My friends and I have always played with an out-of-turn shooting reaction houserule to get rid of any first turn advantage but we also have no intention of playing in tournaments. Just friends at home with beer and snacks.

 godswildcard wrote:

Option 1(Nuclear option):

A two-part solution where we completely stop the generation of pre-game command points. Every player receives 2 CP in the first command phase of the game and 1 CP in the opponent's command phase (this would result in player two having 3CP after player one's first Command Phase). In addition, we return to the system where relics, and now warlord traits, cost points instead of paying CPs to equip them with no way to generate additional relics or warlord traits for your army (which has the added benefit on cutting down even further on the number of wonky warlord trait interactions).

I'm not sure what your intent is with the CP change. It probably wouldn't break anything, but I'm not seeing what problem it solves.

I like the idea of paying points for relics and "warlord traits", but I'd do it a bit differently. Relics can just be 0-1 wargear (that is, wargear that you can only take one instance of in your entire army). Or maybe not even 0-1 depending on how powerful/expensive they are. Basically, just treat relics the same way you treat any other wargear but possibly with a 0-1 limit. Using points means you can set the cost of the relic higher or lower based on how potent they are rather than trying to make every relic in the codex exactly as powerful as each other.

Then I'd get rid of "warlord traits," but I'd give characters access to a handful of purchasable abilities. Basically what harlequin characters/craftworld exarchs have now. I'd maybe even go so far as to remove the bland abilities on some characters (and lower their cost accordingly) and let these purchasable abilities largely define the playstyle of the character.

So a dark eldar archon, for instance, might lose his rerolls aura and go down a few points. And then he'd have the option to buy up to one of the following:
* A rule to let him buff a unit from inside a transport. Costs X points.
* A rule to let him melee better. Costs Y points.
* A rule that lets his transport and its contents enter strategic reserves without spending CP or counting towards your strategic reserves limit. Costs Z points.

So you can tell the story of your character's personality and modus operandi via the abilities you select, but they don't have to be equally useful; you can balance them with points.

Option 2 (probably more realistic):

Give every army a stratagem that allows you to target a unit that made a pre-game move with a shooting attack prior to the start of the game. Make it 1 CP to align to the cost of pre-game move stratagems. At the very least this would make unit placement vital during the pre-game move so that you don't just set a hardcore CC unit 6" away from an enemy unit before the game starts.

What are your thoughts?

I feel like this would be a bandaid fix. The issue identified is that losing a unit before it gets to do anything is kind of lame. Taking potshots at that unit pregame doesn't seem like it fixes that issue. Instead, you'll either shoot the death company off the table with a powerful unit (so now you've just moved the frustration to your opponent instead of getting rid of it), or you don't kill the death company and all you've really done is get some spiteful shots in before getting turn1 charged anyway. Plus, depending on terrain, your opponent may be able to just hide the unit from your shooting to keep you from using that strat.

I'm also not sure that turn 1 charges are still a thing that needs to be solved. If you were playing a 2v2 game with 1k per player, then I assume you were using the board size for a larger game, right? Theoretically, you can deploy away from wherever he sets down the DC, put up screens (not always an option as you mentioned), or use redeploy strats to try and counter the death company. And even setting all that aside, killing enemy units on turn 1 is something that shooting units do all the time; your opponent just spent points (jump packs) and command points (the strat) to do the same thing with a melee unit. And that melee unit should presumably be exposed and vulnerable the turn after it charges meaning you can probably make this a bad trade for your opponent unless you let them take out one of your more expensive units.

Turn 1 charges are probably more of an issue on smaller tables. An easy fix there might be to make some stratagems only usable in sufficiently large games.

Imagine trying to axe a whole game mechanic out of butthurt from Death Company doing something

 kingpbjames wrote:
I don't see a problem with your first suggestion, but honestly from the perspective of a casual player you were crippled first turn because official 40k doesn't have a reaction system. My friends and I have always played with an out-of-turn shooting reaction houserule to get rid of any first turn advantage but we also have no intention of playing in tournaments. Just friends at home with beer and snacks.

I'm not a big tournament player (as probably evidenced by my failure to properly utilize screens), but I do think that 40K would benefit from a proper reaction system. I wonder how the HH reaction system is doing?

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 godswildcard wrote:

Option 1(Nuclear option):

A two-part solution where we completely stop the generation of pre-game command points. Every player receives 2 CP in the first command phase of the game and 1 CP in the opponent's command phase (this would result in player two having 3CP after player one's first Command Phase). In addition, we return to the system where relics, and now warlord traits, cost points instead of paying CPs to equip them with no way to generate additional relics or warlord traits for your army (which has the added benefit on cutting down even further on the number of wonky warlord trait interactions).

I'm not sure what your intent is with the CP change. It probably wouldn't break anything, but I'm not seeing what problem it solves.

I like the idea of paying points for relics and "warlord traits", but I'd do it a bit differently. Relics can just be 0-1 wargear (that is, wargear that you can only take one instance of in your entire army). Or maybe not even 0-1 depending on how powerful/expensive they are. Basically, just treat relics the same way you treat any other wargear but possibly with a 0-1 limit. Using points means you can set the cost of the relic higher or lower based on how potent they are rather than trying to make every relic in the codex exactly as powerful as each other.

Then I'd get rid of "warlord traits," but I'd give characters access to a handful of purchasable abilities. Basically what harlequin characters/craftworld exarchs have now. I'd maybe even go so far as to remove the bland abilities on some characters (and lower their cost accordingly) and let these purchasable abilities largely define the playstyle of the character.

So a dark eldar archon, for instance, might lose his rerolls aura and go down a few points. And then he'd have the option to buy up to one of the following:
* A rule to let him buff a unit from inside a transport. Costs X points.
* A rule to let him melee better. Costs Y points.
* A rule that lets his transport and its contents enter strategic reserves without spending CP or counting towards your strategic reserves limit. Costs Z points.

So you can tell the story of your character's personality and modus operandi via the abilities you select, but they don't have to be equally useful; you can balance them with points.

Option 2 (probably more realistic):

Give every army a stratagem that allows you to target a unit that made a pre-game move with a shooting attack prior to the start of the game. Make it 1 CP to align to the cost of pre-game move stratagems. At the very least this would make unit placement vital during the pre-game move so that you don't just set a hardcore CC unit 6" away from an enemy unit before the game starts.

What are your thoughts?

I feel like this would be a bandaid fix. The issue identified is that losing a unit before it gets to do anything is kind of lame. Taking potshots at that unit pregame doesn't seem like it fixes that issue. Instead, you'll either shoot the death company off the table with a powerful unit (so now you've just moved the frustration to your opponent instead of getting rid of it), or you don't kill the death company and all you've really done is get some spiteful shots in before getting turn1 charged anyway. Plus, depending on terrain, your opponent may be able to just hide the unit from your shooting to keep you from using that strat.

I'm also not sure that turn 1 charges are still a thing that needs to be solved. If you were playing a 2v2 game with 1k per player, then I assume you were using the board size for a larger game, right? Theoretically, you can deploy away from wherever he sets down the DC, put up screens (not always an option as you mentioned), or use redeploy strats to try and counter the death company. And even setting all that aside, killing enemy units on turn 1 is something that shooting units do all the time; your opponent just spent points (jump packs) and command points (the strat) to do the same thing with a melee unit. And that melee unit should presumably be exposed and vulnerable the turn after it charges meaning you can probably make this a bad trade for your opponent unless you let them take out one of your more expensive units.

Turn 1 charges are probably more of an issue on smaller tables. An easy fix there might be to make some stratagems only usable in sufficiently large games.

I think I agree with your thoughts there. Certainly this game I could've done a lot more to counter the DC than I did, and I will definitely learn form that mistake. I think, ultimately, for me at least, it comes down to this not being the first time I've lost units either before the game began (lost a squad of scouts to GSC at a tournament in 7th edition before the first turn, netting my opponent first blood and a KP, again before the game started) or losing units turn one because of something directly linked to pre-game things (like the DC Strat).

I definitely like your idea of getting rid of warlord traits in exchange for a more tailorable set of specific abilities. That sounds like it would be rad!

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Imagine trying to axe a whole game mechanic out of butthurt from Death Company doing something

You got me!

2CP when you have to pay WT and relic would mean that you would have 1 CP, which you could either spend on a relic or a stratagem. when a lot of them cost 2CP, this would mean you can't really use pre game stratagems.
IMO a bad idea.

Good thing from this, is that next time you play vs BA you will know that DC can have a 22" tap range.