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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





Imo this is most likely a poor marry of the original story with new retcons but it just comes across as weird

The first mention of primarch clones is in 2nd ed chaos codex where they discuss the breakup of the black Legion and a Horus clone.

But now we have lots of clones in books of various primarchs.

But we also have super special uniqueness demigod best Boi magic the emperor used to make primarchs now, that he took chaos power to make them, that they are all unique and took a lot of power out of the emperor and were a huge effort.

It thematically clashes when you go out of your way to talk about how singularly powerful and unique they are, precious and potent, but then also seemingly are able to perfectly clone them many times without much difficulty.

And we've got ferrus manus soul being protected by the emperor now apparently, but you still clone him perfectly?


These things really don't gel very well for me. Any thoughts?

   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Here's what I think is going on, and it's all related to Abnett's Bequin trilogy.

Abnett posited the existence of "good demons" - basically, warp energy / denizens inserted into hosts sans the influence or interference of the chaos gods. Imagine a daemon host, with all the wards and chains and blah: the human body can only contain so much warp energy without becoming corrupted / exploding. Now, conceptualize a primarch, which is basically a cloned and perfected human body, which is inherently less likely to assplode when you pump warp energy into it. Even better, it turns out that the Emperor actually worked the wards and restraints that control the average daemon host into the very DNA of the primarchs. And why not - a double helix is a chain after all.

We've seen Primarchs die in the books, and they explode like a geyser of warp energy when they do. Bile doesn't have the ability to summon and bind the warp into the vessels he creates, so his primarchs are pale shadows of the originals - he's a master geneticist, but can't imbue his creations with soul.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Are they pale shadows? The fulgrim clone in the Fabius bile trilogy exudes a charisma so powerful those around him can’t help but instantly worship him and follow him into battle. And it takes all of biles resolve to resist his influence.

He uses the equipment on the ship to craft elaborate armour and weapons with no education and bile seems terrified of another fulgrim in the galaxy and what he might do.

And Abbadon had a similar reaction to an existence of a Horus clone.

I’d agree that cloning primarchs and them having the same power as the originals seems to easy but ithe but I’ve read make it seem that way
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






How was it easy? It took Bile centuries of research and a massive amount of resources to achieve even one clone that came close to the power of their original template. He wasn't running around with an army of Horus's, he managed one good one and maybe one more each of the Traitor Primarchs. The only reason Bile got such a good Horus clone is because he stole the originals body from the Sons of Horus during the Legion Wars.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





Didn't he also make perfect Ferris clones for fulgrim to torture over and over? Multiple many times?

The problem with the cloning at all is that the primarchs are supposed to be unique, each with a part of the emperor's warp might in them. You can't have both unique and generic on the same character, it makes either side suffer.

   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






So whilst aware of the various Clones, I’m not that up on them. So some probing questions.

1. Was there any suggestion of something Not Quite Right with any or all of the Clones? mrFickle’s comment suggests yes at least for Fulgrim, as it seems to be a magnification of the original’s charisma.

2. Do we know how long the Clones lived for? I think they were all deliberately bumped off (but maybe Fulgrim escaped and is at large? I seem to recall that?), which limits our perspective as to how stable they were. Think SciFi trope where the Clone begins to decay. Yes this is speculative, but I’m asking the question all the same, not claiming the speculation

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






1 - The Horus clone was noted by Iskandar Khayon to not have a soul, so while it was the physical image of the Warmaster it wasn't really him.

2 - Horus got killed by Abaddon with his own weapon and Fulgrim was gifted to Trazyn by Bile in exchange for a shipment of untainted 3rd Legion geneseed.
   
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 Hellebore wrote:
Didn't he also make perfect Ferris clones for fulgrim to torture over and over? Multiple many times?

The problem with the cloning at all is that the primarchs are supposed to be unique, each with a part of the emperor's warp might in them. You can't have both unique and generic on the same character, it makes either side suffer.


They weren’t perfect, they were heavily flawed, which is the reason Fulgrim ended up killing each one as he couldn’t deal with them not being right.

Though there was an implication they were getting better each time, which presumably leads to the much better Horus and Fulgrim clones post heresy.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gert wrote:
How was it easy? It took Bile centuries of research and a massive amount of resources to achieve even one clone that came close to the power of their original template. He wasn't running around with an army of Horus's, he managed one good one and maybe one more each of the Traitor Primarchs. The only reason Bile got such a good Horus clone is because he stole the originals body from the Sons of Horus during the Legion Wars.


I meant easy from a narrative perspective, not the characters perspective


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So whilst aware of the various Clones, I’m not that up on them. So some probing questions.

1. Was there any suggestion of something Not Quite Right with any or all of the Clones? mrFickle’s comment suggests yes at least for Fulgrim, as it seems to be a magnification of the original’s charisma.

2. Do we know how long the Clones lived for? I think they were all deliberately bumped off (but maybe Fulgrim escaped and is at large? I seem to recall that?), which limits our perspective as to how stable they were. Think SciFi trope where the Clone begins to decay. Yes this is speculative, but I’m asking the question all the same, not claiming the speculation


The way it’s written is that this is one of all the primarchs abilities, that humans (and abhumans and transhumans) gravitate toward their leadership and not many have this mental strength to resist. But fulgrim had this power in more abundance than any other primarchs, we know that he was capable of motivating people and inspiring them beyond anything the other primarchs could achieve. This is why he was allowed to rename his chapter the emperors children

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/04 09:27:56


 
   
Made in us
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Rexford NY, USA

 Hellebore wrote:

The problem with the cloning at all is that the primarchs are supposed to be unique, each with a part of the emperor's warp might in them.


Lord Zarkov wrote:

They weren’t perfect, they were heavily flawed, which is the reason Fulgrim ended up killing each one as he couldn’t deal with them not being right.


Perhaps that's the issue in a nutshell. Even if the DNA was perfectly cloned, they lacked access to the emperor's daemons and tried stuffing (what they thought was equivalent) chaos daemons in. Similar power levels but not what the design was built to channel - leading to the wards not working correctly and the result being off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/04 22:23:16


 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The "Emperor Daemons" thing is a theory from a Dakka user though. At best we have the words of a servant of Chaos (Ingethel) who is actively trying to entice the Word Bearers into the service of Chaos and Eldrad both saying that the Warp was used in the creation of the Primarchs but now how it was used.
The Primarchs also don't explode with Warp energy when they die as mortals (Curze, Sanguinius, and Ferrus are evidence of that), only those who ascended to Daemonhood do and that's for some fairly obvious reasons.
They might have been embued with a portion of the power taken by the Emperor at Molech but that doesn't make them Daemons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/04 22:49:20


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gert wrote:
The "Emperor Daemons" thing is a theory from a Dakka user though. At best we have the words of a servant of Chaos (Ingethel) who is actively trying to entice the Word Bearers into the service of Chaos and Eldrad both saying that the Warp was used in the creation of the Primarchs but now how it was used.
The Primarchs also don't explode with Warp energy when they die as mortals (Curze, Sanguinius, and Ferrus are evidence of that), only those who ascended to Daemonhood do and that's for some fairly obvious reasons.
They might have been embued with a portion of the power taken by the Emperor at Molech but that doesn't make them Daemons.


I thought Ferrus DID explode, or at least, his neck stump blasted out some highlander energy when he was decapitated by Fulgrim? It's been a while since I read the book, but I recall that being pretty clear.

   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Yeah, Ferrus' neck stump turns into a firehose of warpstuff when Fulgrim decapitates him. We see the same when Dorn killed Alpharius.

Also, to get meta about things, I think the reason why the second & third Bequin books were delayed so heavily is because their plots would have given too much of the game away, re: primarchs, and GW wanted to get the siege of terra finished before the deep dive into primarch creation spoiler territory.

Final thought: it's worth noting that the Daemon primarchs never actually ascended the same way as mortals to become daemon princes - Magnus becomes a daemon prince despite doing nothing other that getting killed by Russ. Angron does nothing either, he's Jimmied into it by Lorgar. Might be that they were always daemon princes, what happened was that the wards in their bodies got broken at the moment of death.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/05 09:05:58


 
   
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Hello Hellebore.

The issue disappears when you consider the only definite "perfect clones" are:

1) Ferrus (dead at the time)
2) Horus (dead at the time)
3) Fulgrim- had been possessed, maybe still flesh-jacked

My longstanding theory is that Primarchs result when you bond a Custodes Daemonhost yo a perfectly natched warp entity- and the body's soulless.

So Bile's clones were replacement hosts for the warp entities the Emperor carved. If their souls weren't available, something else would try to fill them and it would go wrong.

We saw Ferrus's soul summoned by Emps, recall.

Possible the Gellar fields were to isolate the warp energy pockets and groe the bodies around to create this body-soul match
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Here’s another thought.

At basically no point did the Great Crusade go to plan. As soon as the Primarchs were abducted it all became something of a bodge job by necessity.

As I’ve waxed lyrical about, the Astartes we know are part of that bodging. The best The Emperor could manage with the lessened resources in the little time available to him. Soon as the Warp Storms blew out, it was Off To The Races.

As the Primarchs were rediscovered, the Emperor was able to tinker with that Legion’s Geneseed to stabilise it somewhat. But, as we can see, either due to the impact of the abduction, or it being Bodge Job v2.0, even that was largely incomplete.

But it all points to us not really being able to say what the original plan was. The creation of a Primarch is an entirely different prospect to Cloning a Primarch. One was done entirely from scratch*, the other is…well….copy/pasta.

That might’ve been part of the original plan all along. Not necessarily Legions of Primarchs like - but potentially enough resources to make them at least appear immortal. Should any fall in battle? Cover it up as best you can and pop a new one out the mould you’ve got on Terra (or potentially, installed in flagships.) Good for your side’s morale, utterly crushing for certain foes who just cannot seem to kill these demigods of war.

Why didn’t The Emperor take those steps as each Primarch was found? Well, I’ve a not entirely speculative answer for that.

The best way to expand an Empire is a nice, orderly advance, or at least as orderly as all out war will allow.

But again, the Scattering comes into play. Needing to apply spit and polish to Geneseed to maintain and expand the Legions, finding the Primarchs was an important aim. And a time sensitive one. Hence it was more rushed, following rumour and legend of godlike beings found on world, or just sniffing out their psychic spoor (someone better read in the Heresy Novels might be able to weigh in with canonical info on how they were found).

That lead to supply lines being overstretched, and so forward forward forward was the order of the day, and worry about stuff another day?

*wonder what happened to the prototypes discarded?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/17 21:39:28


   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





The impression given though, is that the fundamental construction of a primarch, not specifically the R&D, is difficult. To make a flesh vessel capable of holding that power isn't easy. Cloning seems like it shouldn't work, given that the primarch body isn't purely genetic but also warp/soul craft.

IMO the entire primarch project is a rush job for a being that was ~40,000 years old by that point. He spent millennia trying various methods of intercession and guiding humanity to the end goal he believed best (doesn't mean it was though - the method of his creation makes his perspective a pretty biased one). But then the AI wars happened at the same the Eldar were reaching the zenith of their god building orgy and suddenly the dominos fell in an almost species-ending way.

The Primarch program and the galactic crusade strategy smack of a desperation move, rather than using subtlety and enlightenment to guide humanity, it was a sledgehammer to smash it into shape before the combined calamities of the galaxy destroyed humanity utterly.

I kind of think this was the Emperor coming out of retirement - the golden age was setting humanity up for a perfect social structure to allow the evolution of psykers in a controlled and intelligent way. Humanity was on the right path and the Emperor probably thought his great work was complete.

But then AI revolutions (potentially caused by chaotic corruption of mainframes), uncontrollable psychic mutations, increasingly volatile warp storms all conspired to pull the rug out from under him. Less than 10,000 years later he comes out swinging with a xenocidal, autocratic galactic steam roller headed by walking WMDs using fragments of his own power in an attempt to staunch the mortal wounds the human species had received.

The human species was a mortally wounded body and the great crusade, primarchs and marines were a bunch of staple guns trying to hold it together long enough to heal...






This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/19 00:59:06


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Hellebore wrote:
The impression given though, is that the fundamental construction of a primarch, not specifically the R&D, is difficult. To make a flesh vessel capable of holding that power isn't easy. Cloning seems like it shouldn't work, given that the primarch body isn't purely genetic but also warp/soul craft.

That's the impression I get too. The implication in a number of places seems to be the Emperor used up all his "resources" to make the 20 Primarchs and he wouldn't be getting any more. What those resources were and exactly how it all worked is something we don't know, but it seems the Primarch project was always a one-shot deal. That may also explain why he felt it was OK to hand over the genetic material for the Primarch project to Corax rather than keep it locked away - it's only a small part of what's needed to make Primarchs.

The interesting question for me is whether the Primarchs were truly necessary. The Emperor seems to have a fixation on super soldiers and making bigger, better warriors as the solution to all his problems. The Primarchs are the pinnacle of that. Maybe it's because the Emperor himself is something apart from humanity so all he can conceive of to lead his armies are beings similarly raised above their troops. In creating them he also created myriad problems, which were only exacerbated by the scattering. They key question of what the Primarchs would be used for after the Great Crusade is still one that needs answering. I wonder if the Primarchs were told what happened to the Thunder Warriors?
   
Made in an
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think the primarchs were necessary. My understanding is that they were originally intended to lead the legions of human soldiers (and admech) and only ended up with legions of space marines because they were created as a replacement for the primarchs when they went missing.

The emperor wouldn’t have been able to lead the great crusade in his own and human leaders might not have been skilled enough or inspiring enough to take billions of humans on such a long war.

I think once the emperor became filled with the power of the warp he became a bit obsessed with it and it became his answer to everything, maybe believing that it would make him and his primarchs unstopable because he didn’t fully understand the entities of the warp and the chaos gods.

Was the use of the webway his plan all along or did something happen during the great crusade that made him realise he needed to shield humanity from the warp? Maybe something he saw in his primarchs
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The Astartes were always planned but the idea was that there would be no cultural divides or personal grudges we see with the Primarchs as they became. Dorn and Perturabo wouldn't have hated each other, Angron wouldn't have the Nails, and Sanguinius wouldn't be half-bird. They would all be perfect tools of the Emperor's will. There would still be specialisations in the Legions to some degree but the plan was to have the Astartes act as the sword and the shield for Humanity to evolve into a fully Psychic race. What was to become of them afterward is unknown and it fuelled a lot of the discontent and anger that allowed the Horus Heresy to manifest on such a grand scale.
Likewise, the Human Webway was always part of the grand plan. Humanity would be shepherded to becoming a Psychic species like the Aeldari and with that realised they would have a safe mode of transport between the worlds in this new empire. There would be no reliance on Navigators or the fickle nature of the Warp for transportation and as such Humanity could ideally avoid the predations of the Dark Gods while weakening them of power by dedicating itself to reason, science, and rationality over superstition. Of course, this was never going to work for a huge number of reasons but nonetheless, it was the plan.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/19 12:53:10


 
   
Made in no
Been Around the Block




The primarchs as the emperors sons and the primarchs as demigods is really just Imperial Propaganda. Ecclesiarchic propaganda specifically. It developed across the millennia as dead men turned into legends, and legends turned into myths.

The primarchs were just space marines, commanders of the legions sure, but no more godly than the emperor himself. The clones made of them were a foolish endeavor, an attempt to cling to men that had already failed.

No, if you are looking for the divine there is only one place to look.

Despite what you have been told, it is not Chaos that betrayed man. It was Chaos that set us free.

Join us... brothers.

Out of character: This was the lore in Rogue Trader I think but I'm not sure. I think they quickly switched over to making them super space marines though. I just like the thought that all we know of the Horus Heresy is just trough the lens of the forty-first millennium, and most of it has become warped over time.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Hellebore wrote:
Didn't he also make perfect Ferris clones for fulgrim to torture over and over? Multiple many times?

The problem with the cloning at all is that the primarchs are supposed to be unique, each with a part of the emperor's warp might in them. You can't have both unique and generic on the same character, it makes either side suffer.

The books heavily imply that for clone to be any good, it needs a soul or whatever the warp part of the primarch is. And this is why Bile fails - because he has no idea how to provide that. His 'good' clones are implied to work because they attracted the original soul, like a lightning rod. At least this is leading fan theory. He can make 'good' Ferrus clone, because his soul is free. He made Fulgrim because the original body was taken over by a daemon so there was something to attract (and on a side note, Bile is terrified because he sees the clone did not learn anything and was still full of hubris, so likely to fall again and Bile doesn't really need a second corrupted primarch to meddle in his affairs). And, coincidentally, this is why his 'perfect' clone of Horus didn't work - because Emperor obliterated him so there is nothing to attract anymore.

Lord Zarkov wrote:
They weren’t perfect, they were heavily flawed, which is the reason Fulgrim ended up killing each one as he couldn’t deal with them not being right.

Flawed? Wasn't the deal with Fulgrim being mad at clones because each and every one condemned him for treason and attacked instead of joining him, and they would be only 'right' in his eyes if they would be convinced by Fulgrim's really (by that point) unhinged rants? At least this was implied to be reason why he kept killing them in version I read...

 Gert wrote:
The "Emperor Daemons" thing is a theory from a Dakka user though. At best we have the words of a servant of Chaos (Ingethel) who is actively trying to entice the Word Bearers into the service of Chaos and Eldrad both saying that the Warp was used in the creation of the Primarchs but now how it was used.

Except we know Corax managed to evolve some seriously out there powers at least equaling Daemon Lorgar that wouldn't be out of place on Daemon Prince so unless Corax fell to Chaos or something and became a Prince of Chaos Undivided he must have had them built in to begin with.

Then there is the test Primarch #0 that is pretty much a Daemon Prince in all but name, so yeah, the theory is virtually all but confirmed...
   
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mrFickle wrote:
I think the primarchs were necessary. My understanding is that they were originally intended to lead the legions of human soldiers (and admech) and only ended up with legions of space marines because they were created as a replacement for the primarchs when they went missing.

Was the use of the webway his plan all along or did something happen during the great crusade that made him realise he needed to shield humanity from the warp? Maybe something he saw in his primarchs[/quote

This has been sort of changed in the past five years. Some novel or other has a marine or refers to an off-set marine who was made prior to the primarchs.

You are right, Realm of Chaos says after the primarchs were lost the emperor reírme to what it calls an abandoned side project, the marines. Eleven years later the indexes astartes were still saying primarchs were supposed to lead human society and then marines were made as an improvisation.

“so he began to forge for himself the Primarchs, the first ones. They were sons of his blood, yet not mere copies. Each was engineered to be a leader of men, a warrior and a hero tempered by wisdom and strength , both physical and spiritual. These progeny of the Emperor would lead Mankind away from the dark powers and into a golden age.

“[paragraph about losing the primarchs]

“ What is known is that after this date he turned his hand to genetically enhancing and modifying Human subjects using the template of the lost Primarchs gene strands.”

IMO the idea was not just that they’d lead but they’d transform the structure of human society. There’d be one primarch who worked directly with Newton and then later with Einstein, and also Al Kharizmi and Pythagoras. The modern novels have Fulgrim able to perfectly replicate the technique of any artist he studies, but in a soulless or uninspired fashion. The function of this would be working directly with one mortal genius, absorbing their thinking perfectly, then carrying it forward a hundred years to share that technique with the luminary of that generation, and being able to synthesize the practice of all the different collaborators accumulated over centuries. Of course there are primarchs for all fields of human endeavor, and so society would develop at a rate that made civilian militia as effective as marines but also superfluous because the productive, technologic, cultural, and strategic output of the be so great they’d never need armed conflict.

N E way the pre-primarch marine from Valdor or whatever could mean that this timeline has been abandoned by GW, but is also consistent with the original premise of the emperor reviving an abandoned side project



 Gert wrote:
a theory from a Dakka user though.


More and more the background is taking fan memes and repeating them back to us.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






 Irbis wrote:
Except we know Corax managed to evolve some seriously out there powers at least equaling Daemon Lorgar that wouldn't be out of place on Daemon Prince so unless Corax fell to Chaos or something and became a Prince of Chaos Undivided he must have had them built in to begin with.

Using the Warp to make the Primarchs doesn't make them Daemons though and the ability to use the Warp to manifest power doesn't make them Daemons either. For Corax specifically, he was mutated after spending much time in the Warp hunting the Traitor Primarchs which we know is a thing. You don't have to fall to Chaos to become infused with the powers of the Warp.

Then there is the test Primarch #0 that is pretty much a Daemon Prince in all but name, so yeah, the theory is virtually all but confirmed...

Yeah, I don't know who that is so you'll have to elaborate there.

pelicaniforce wrote:
More and more the background is taking fan memes and repeating them back to us.

The difficulty with this notion is that a lot of 40k background is geared towards generating fan discussion and theorising. So when a question gets answered people see it as taking the fan idea and putting it into canon when that both is and isn't true.
   
Made in gb
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Also, it’s not a factual background. It’s mythical. Best guesses and wild claims by inherently unreliable narrators.

   
Made in de
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




 Gert wrote:
 Irbis wrote:
Except we know Corax managed to evolve some seriously out there powers at least equaling Daemon Lorgar that wouldn't be out of place on Daemon Prince so unless Corax fell to Chaos or something and became a Prince of Chaos Undivided he must have had them built in to begin with.

Using the Warp to make the Primarchs doesn't make them Daemons though and the ability to use the Warp to manifest power doesn't make them Daemons either. For Corax specifically, he was mutated after spending much time in the Warp hunting the Traitor Primarchs which we know is a thing. You don't have to fall to Chaos to become infused with the powers of the Warp.

Then there is the test Primarch #0 that is pretty much a Daemon Prince in all but name, so yeah, the theory is virtually all but confirmed...

Yeah, I don't know who that is so you'll have to elaborate there.

pelicaniforce wrote:
More and more the background is taking fan memes and repeating them back to us.

The difficulty with this notion is that a lot of 40k background is geared towards generating fan discussion and theorising. So when a question gets answered people see it as taking the fan idea and putting it into canon when that both is and isn't true.


I think they're talking about "Primus" the father of the Primaris Marines mentioned in a meeting with Gman in the new book. When Cawl first intros them to the Ultras. Primus is this giant "thing" that they can't even define as human, but he self identifies as the father. I am forgetting a lot on purpose. It was an exceptionally badly written book.
   
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The Dark Imperium

Not to derail deep thoughts here, I appreciate the info! But I have to ask did the Emperor receive Ferrus' head? If so was it used to make the clones? and was it kept or discarded?

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Horus had Ferrus' skull given to him by Fulgrim. The Iron Father's of the Xth said they'd recovered their Primarchs head but it was a fake which was then destroyed by Vulcan.
Horus even began to talk to the skull of Ferrus when he lamented the allies he'd be dealt.
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, it’s not a factual background. It’s mythical. Best guesses and wild claims by inherently unreliable narrators.

Sometimes. Other times it is entirely written as factual with an omniscient narrator.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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London

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think they're talking about "Primus" the father of the Primaris Marines mentioned in a meeting with Gman in the new book. When Cawl first intros them to the Ultras. Primus is this giant "thing" that they can't even define as human, but he self identifies as the father. I am forgetting a lot on purpose. It was an exceptionally badly written book.


Do you mean Alpha Primus?

He's not their father, he's their prototype. He's not in any way a Primarch. There are some hints he's a bit better (and a bit worse in some ways) but he's just a marine.

I assume the parent comment was referring to The Angel (https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Angel)
   
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The Dark Imperium

 Gert wrote:
Horus had Ferrus' skull given to him by Fulgrim. The Iron Father's of the Xth said they'd recovered their Primarchs head but it was a fake which was then destroyed by Vulcan.
Horus even began to talk to the skull of Ferrus when he lamented the allies he'd be dealt.


But was there ever any mention of his brain? I've heard "head" and "skull", but if you had the brain wouldn't you have Ferrus?

   
 
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