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Pretty self explanatory. Could they ?

Sure why not

Why would they want to?

Not a chance, not too up of the current lore but even if the Tau and Squats Empire have a few thousand worlds each the IOM has millions, leading to an overwhelming production and disposable bodies advantage

And the Eldar ? Well it would be one wake to awaken Ynneed with millions of dead elfs, on top of the whole Great Rift, Robby G and that being their current focus

The only reason the Imperium hasn't swatted Tau to oblivion is because Tau are on the fringes of the Galaxy and, whilst their ability to absorb other races into their greater whole allows them to grow faster than most other factions in terms of conquered worlds; they are still a tiny problem. Ultimately the Imperium has bigger problems elsewhere to contend with and thus the Tau are left alone - for the most part.

Tau are a rising power but they are a very small faction.



Votann are also smaller and more tolerated by the Imperium, but they are still just a splinter of the greater Imperial whole.


Eldar likely outnumber both, but they are heavily fragmented. They are also slow to breed and replace losses and their aversion to mechanoids and robots means certain pathways of their technology are closed to them. As a result the Eldar can engage in major conflicts, but they are loath to do so. They don't have the moral desire to rebuild their empire and conquer the stars again; they don't have the breeding rate to replace the heavy losses such a campaign would create and they don't have the unity in a single spot to drive home a strong central powerbase to operate from. Heck the Exodites are on the very fringes and mostly keep to themselves (in most of the lore we see them in its when their worlds are being invaded and, often, lost or heavily damaged).

On no front are Eldar really pushing for new territory. Even the Dark Eldar, who breed at a faster rate, are not really interested in rebuilding themsleves and building an Empire.


Yinnari is an interesting shift in the Eldar lore because it presents the idea that the Eldar lore could go down the pathway of Eldar being the "big bad" one season and deciding to throw off the shackles of Slaanesh and the generations of millennia of depression that birthing the god has created for them. That the Eldar could go from a faction ever increasingly operating in the shadows to one operating on the front lines; capturing worlds and such.


Indeed with the exception of the Imperium, most other factions are seen to be gaining territory and worlds (at the expense of the Imperium for the most part which is still mindbogglingly vast). Even the Tyranids have gained 1 world that they built themselves for reasons only they know and meanwhile consume many other worlds.




In the end a few factions have potential to challenge galactic domination. Orks, Tyranids, Chaos, Necrons. Eldar are kind of in the middle, then you've got the likes of Votann and Tau who are rising but still too small.

An alliance of Eldar, Votann and Tau could cause some serious damage, but at the same time a rising power like that would attract far more Imperial Attention. The Votann might be able to stand on their own for a while but the Eldar would have to swoop in to protect the Tau worlds. The Imperium could conduct major campaigns against the Tau and Votann, whlist Eldar are a bit more hidden/mobile with craftworlds.

Haven't yet had a chance to peruse the Leagues of Votann background in their Codex yet so I cannot yet comment on them.

The Tau are a minor empire, albeit a regional power in their local area and expanding now through the Startide Nexus to the Nem'yar Atoll, which means they are no longer restricted to just the far SE Imperium. However they are running into greater resistance from the Imperium and from Genestealer Cults in that area. I would say the greatest obstacle however is the need to try and make good on their promises on a large scale as one of the means the Tau have been using is in getting local human populations to rebel against the Imperium, in the hopes of a better life under the Tau.

The Eldar's main threat is not their numbers but their mobility and intelligence. As an ancient race, they know more about the various mysteries, artifacts, and deeper secrets of the galaxy which could potentially be leveraged to their advantage. The Webway gives them unparalleled speed and mobility to any place where there are still functioning gates, and the speed of their forces allows for hit and run attacks. The psychic powers of the Farseers mean they can butterfly effect their actions to have greater impact than might be imagined from just a look at their numbers.

Iracundus wrote:

The Eldar's main threat is not their numbers but their mobility and intelligence. As an ancient race, they know more about the various mysteries, artifacts, and deeper secrets of the galaxy which could potentially be leveraged to their advantage. The Webway gives them unparalleled speed and mobility to any place where there are still functioning gates, and the speed of their forces allows for hit and run attacks. The psychic powers of the Farseers mean they can butterfly effect their actions to have greater impact than might be imagined from just a look at their numbers.

True, but they've been doing such strikes for generations and it doesn't seem to do anything more than stabilize their position.
In theory they've got a huge trump card in that, but in practice the Imperium's ability to simply throw insane numbers of bodies, ships, tanks and bullets their way means that the Eldar are fighting an uphill struggle.

 Overread wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

The Eldar's main threat is not their numbers but their mobility and intelligence. As an ancient race, they know more about the various mysteries, artifacts, and deeper secrets of the galaxy which could potentially be leveraged to their advantage. The Webway gives them unparalleled speed and mobility to any place where there are still functioning gates, and the speed of their forces allows for hit and run attacks. The psychic powers of the Farseers mean they can butterfly effect their actions to have greater impact than might be imagined from just a look at their numbers.

True, but they've been doing such strikes for generations and it doesn't seem to do anything more than stabilize their position.
In theory they've got a huge trump card in that, but in practice the Imperium's ability to simply throw insane numbers of bodies, ships, tanks and bullets their way means that the Eldar are fighting an uphill struggle.

40K is a state of dynamic equilibrium to maintain an ongoing status quo. All of the factions have strengths and weaknesses. The Eldar (of all varieties) are vastly outnumbered but make up for that with individual skill, psychic powers, artifacts, and/or knowledge.

If anything the Eldar are often in the role of Status Quo preservers. The classic story is Imperials are threatened by Chaos then Eldar provide the knowledge of artifact that allows the threat to be defeated. Status quo restored.

The main purpose/role of Eldar in any hypothetical alliance is in providing the intelligence/prediction of what to do and then offering the mobility via means of the Webway to achieve it swiftly. The purpose of any more numerous allies is to have greater material resources and staying power so that a greater range of possible actions is possible.

Iracundus wrote:

 Overread wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

The Eldar's main threat is not their numbers but their mobility and intelligence. As an ancient race, they know more about the various mysteries, artifacts, and deeper secrets of the galaxy which could potentially be leveraged to their advantage. The Webway gives them unparalleled speed and mobility to any place where there are still functioning gates, and the speed of their forces allows for hit and run attacks. The psychic powers of the Farseers mean they can butterfly effect their actions to have greater impact than might be imagined from just a look at their numbers.

True, but they've been doing such strikes for generations and it doesn't seem to do anything more than stabilize their position.
In theory they've got a huge trump card in that, but in practice the Imperium's ability to simply throw insane numbers of bodies, ships, tanks and bullets their way means that the Eldar are fighting an uphill struggle.

40K is a state of dynamic equilibrium to maintain an ongoing status quo. All of the factions have strengths and weaknesses. The Eldar (of all varieties) are vastly outnumbered but make up for that with individual skill, psychic powers, artifacts, and/or knowledge.

If anything the Eldar are often in the role of Status Quo preservers. The classic story is Imperials are threatened by Chaos then Eldar provide the knowledge of artifact that allows the threat to be defeated. Status quo restored.

The main purpose/role of Eldar in any hypothetical alliance is in providing the intelligence/prediction of what to do and then offering the mobility via means of the Webway to achieve it swiftly. The purpose of any more numerous allies is to have greater material resources and staying power so that a greater range of possible actions is possible.

Thing is your example highlights how the Eldar are often outclassed/numbered by other threats that they have to trick the Imperium into solving problems for them rather than simply taking on the Chaos forces themselves. Of course tricking the Imperium also means less Eldar lives put at risk.


And yep the lore is 100% never going to let anyone "win" until perhaps GW decides to end the setting (eg technically Chaos won in Old World) or closes as a company (and chances are if they were doing that they'd not be concerned about finishing the lore).



So these chats are purely exercises in "what-ifs". In my view Eldar, to actually rise up in power to threaten the Imperium, would have to go through major changes both socially, politically and more to say nothing of their need to find a way to boost their numbers significantly or somehow fragment the Imperium into bitsized chunks to tackle. Even then they'd have to contend with Orks, Tyranids, Chaos and more as potential threats.

 Overread wrote:

So these chats are purely exercises in "what-ifs". In my view Eldar, to actually rise up in power to threaten the Imperium, would have to go through major changes both socially, politically and more to say nothing of their need to find a way to boost their numbers significantly or somehow fragment the Imperium into bitsized chunks to tackle. Even then they'd have to contend with Orks, Tyranids, Chaos and more as potential threats.

That was not the OP scenario though.

It was what if the Eldar, Tau, and LoV allied. The default assumption would be in their present forms. In such a scenario, the Eldar would best contribute by providing intelligence and mobility through the Webway. This is a mobility both of the other two factions lack, as I have been able to read snippets of the Codex in videos that say the Kin have slow warp travel compared to the Imperium. The other two factions would be the muscle and staying power. As they would be able to absorb more losses, the alliance forces would be able to strike at targets that the Eldar alone could not or would not due to the cost.

Thing is the Eldar likely outnumber the Tau.

The Imperium is similar to the USA just prior to WW2.
It's a bit of a shambles but during a crisis event, strong leadership often means that despite being given a bloody nose in the early days, the sheer industrial might and will to fight from the Average Joe means that even if the Imperium takes staggering losses in the fight, it will keep going until the job is done. That doesn't necessarily mean genocide but rather what we see with the Damocles Crusade where the Imperium made peace to deal with Hive Fleet Behemoth.
They also have the religious aspect to their wars where it's seen as failing the God Emperor if the Imperium doesn't win. Time isn't also really a concern as the Imperium plays the long game. Local lords and corporations might feel the sting of a loss of profit but unless that erupts into a rebellion it isn't a problem for the Imperium.

If anything I'd argue that the Imperium doesn't play the long game. It plays a lot of short local interest games that tend to end up following a similar long pathway in the end.

The Imperium certainly has a lot of old characters in powerful positions. But many of them are playing a series of short games against each other to maintain their influence, position and power. About the only long term game we've seen is the Primaris which only worked because the bulk of the Imperium was totally unaware of their development until they were unleashed.



They certainly don't play the long game the same way that Eldar or Necrons do. They would be rulers of the long game

Well sure on the millennia scale but I'm more thinking of the "We can lose 30 worlds because we'll just take them back at some point or find some new ones". Unless it's somewhere super important like Armageddon or maybe a major Chapter homeworld. Then again, if this alliance decides to invade Armageddon given its current issues, hell mend them.

 Gert wrote:
Well sure on the millennia scale but I'm more thinking of the "We can lose 30 worlds because we'll just take them back at some point or find some new ones". Unless it's somewhere super important like Armageddon or maybe a major Chapter homeworld. Then again, if this alliance decides to invade Armageddon given its current issues, hell mend them.

Actually the one time the Imperium did do that was against a Hive Fleet and as I recall the guy who orchestrated that plan was excommunicated and listed as a traitor. The Imperium at large could suffer that loss yes, but at the local level it wasn't a popular choice; and that element grew and grew into a huge shout that shut down that particular "managed retreat" approach to dealing with Hive Fleets entirely. So the Imperium can do it, but its more as a byproduct rather than an intention. Again the Imperium isn't a single cohesive unit. It's weakness is having huge internal power, political, religious and other struggles. Each one focusing on more short term or personal goals. It's the main reason the Imperium is in the mess its in. The only one who could unite the Imperium and take the long term view was the Emperor. With him alive I agree, the Imperium would take the long view toward any major situation. With him bound and out of hte picture as all but a religious figurehead, the Imperium lost its long term view.

There is a significant difference between losing worlds in war and actively ruining them. Kryptman did the latter. Worlds taken by the T'au and Leagues can be reclaimed in the long run and worlds devastated by the conflict can be rebuilt but Kryptman utterly destroyed the planets in his plan and the people living there. The T'au won't genocide the populace of worlds they take and while the Leagues might use them as cheap labour, outright slaughter doesn't seem to be in their ideology.
Plus if we're taking the Xenos races at their current state then why not the Imperium with Guilliman? If this alliance attacks, he'll be leading the charge against them which brings the greatest tactician the Imperium has into the fight while also providing the demi-god figurehead for the troops. Then if some of the secrets of the Leagues are revealed you can be the Mechanicus will be frothing at the voice modules to get some of that tasty technology.
The biggest question is whether or not the other factions take notice/exist as a threat in this scenario. The Necrons are hardly going to allow their oldest enemies to gain dominion over the galaxy, the forces of Chaos will use the opportunity to sow discord and make gains in numerous places, and the Orks will jump in for the sheer fun of it. And then there's the Tyranids. With the Imperium, Leagues, and T'au all pulling forces away from fronts fighting the Hive Fleets they'll have free reign to consume hundreds of worlds. If this alliance did decide to fight the Imperium specifically to end it, then the fallout from the other races would make any victory meaningless.

Nope. Not even close.

As others have said? The Imperium consists of at least a million worlds.

Sure, such a team-up could blast a bunch of worlds from the void. No problem there.

Except…..attritioooooooon! ATTRITION!

Every battle, even the most roflstompy of ROFLstomps carries a butchers build.

Even if the manage to squelch 10,000 worlds? The surface is barely scratched. If The Imperium was a car, the score of scratch a quick go over with T-Cut would sort out nicely. You wouldn’t even need to buff it.

We are talking genuinely and truly mind boggling numbers.

We consider our Mother Earth to over burdened with the Hoomans, as our population approaches 8,000,000,000.

In the, aha, Imperial Scale? That’s a single probably medium Hive worth of Hoomans.

The Imperium is the ultimate tank class. You just cannot damage it fast enough. It’s scale is frankly staggering. It’s persons under arms genuinely innumerable - and that’s just counting formal armed forces. Anyone picking a fight with a Hive World is gonna take a kicking, even if they win.

To quote The War of The Worlds, but with the tech tree perversely swapped? All the tech and tricks of the proposed alliance? Bows and Arrows against the Lightning.

I mean….if push The Imperium? It pushes back. And all we’ve seen in those terms is The Imperium surviving, if not winning a given war. There’s precious little stopping every single Hive World becoming some approximation of a Fortress World. Lasguns may be comparatively unimpressive, but a couple of billion Lasguns, in the hands of folks protecting hearth and home is still gonna really, really hurt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To kind of dial it back.

Let’s look at The Imperium. It’s clunky. It’s dysfunctional. It’s an administrative mess.

Yet…it’s still the most successful and stable human civilisation ever.

Despite the abject stupidity largely caused by near Skavenesque paranoid and internal bickering? Despite all the Galaxy and The Imperium have thrown at The Imperium?

It endures. There’s no stopping it. And sadly for Guilliman? There’s no reforming it - and likely no redeeming it. For exactly the same reason that it’s simply too large, too sprawling.

Right now? It should be a truly anarchic mess. But it somehow carries on.

Yes it could be improved. Yes efficiencies could be introduced. Over generations true reformation and a shift toward some semblance of Imperial Truth could occur - but only system by system.

That’s right. I’m saying the only way to reforge The Imperium is a coup, and a new Great Crusade.

But why bother? It’s a dystopian hell scape and no mistake - but…it works. It takes everything on the chin, and sooner or later, capable of revisiting crime upon its persecutors ten-fold.

Considering how well Horus Heresy is doing and how 40K itself has run up against its own timeline almost twice (they had to dial back very recent events because they were running out of years). If GW were to ever rebrand 40K I could see them rebranding as "The Guilliman Heresy" or "The Horus Crusade" or something along those lines

Basically take all the HH marketing and bundle it with 40K to take things into a Crusade era of the 41st millennium.


Heck I'm sure GW under Kirby could have done just that. Current Gw I think is a bit too aware that 40K marketing is fantastically effective and just killing "40K" could be a marketing disaster of proportions that would make the killing Old World and birthing Age of Sigmar look like nothing

You mean like the Indomitus Crusade? The thing GW has been doing for 40k since 8th came out? The thing the 9th Ed box set was named after?

Naw I mean bigger than that.

Like "The Hammer Crusade" or "Horus Crusade 40K" or something something

Why would they need to rebrand it when 40k has a significant media and cultural presence and is more associated with the brand of Warhammer than WHFB or AoS? I'm also unsure what the popularity of HH has to do with things. People like it because of the setting and the rules, not because of the name.

 Gert wrote:
Why would they need to rebrand it when 40k has a significant media and cultural presence and is more associated with the brand of Warhammer than WHFB or AoS? I'm also unsure what the popularity of HH has to do with things. People like it because of the setting and the rules, not because of the name.

As I said I doubt they would do it. Even if they advance the story into the 41st I'd expect them to stick to 40K as the title.

I mean, sure if they banded together they might be able to defeat the Imperium. But then will immediately be fallen upon by;
Necrons
Tyranids
Orks
And whatever else has been hiding from the Imperiums watchful eye.

So take from that what you will...

I agree. If anything I think narratively we'll see even more cooperation between the "good guy races." Sure there will be wars between them but with Abaddon's Big Evil Plan and the Silent King's Big Evil plan and the Tyranid's big evil...lunch. The "good guys" will need to work together if they want to even survive.

Unless the orks accidently save the Imperium by balancing out some of the above threats. (Why do I keep thinking that's going to happen?)

Kind of depends on what you mean by "take down".

As others have pointed out, a great big war of attrition probably wouldn't go so well for the alliance as that's exactly the sort of meatgrinder the imperium is designed for. So if you're asking whether or not such an alliance could like, fight its way through imperial space and blow up Terra, probably not.

Now that said, the imperium is already arguably eroding away to nothing and also making itself more of a problem for other factions in the galaxy than the tau/eldar/squats are. So if "take down" can be translated to " outlast," then sure. Craftworlds, Commorragh, and the tau empire all seem likely to survive longer than the governing body of Terra will.

The proposed alliance of ALL eldar, ALL tau, and ALL squats could also probably wage a war designed to disrupt imperial travel routes and communication lines effectively cutting off big chunks of the imperium from more central command structures. Which, the imperium would still exist in that scenario, but if you can functionally remove the high lords' ability to assert authority over a big chunk of their holdings, I guess that's still a win of sorts?

@The consumers who think Votann, Tau and Eldar can not take down the Imperium: Can you think of this one (40K)novel, comic or TV series episode of which you thaught "F*ck, how aweful, how could the authors write this sh*t!?"

Answer is of course Votann, Tau and Eldar can take down the Imperium, only thing needed is a company which thinks that's a good idea for a story.

When I grew up in the schoolyard of elementary school we discussed if comic superhero A could beat comic superhero B. Many decades later I can look back and I'm pretty sure every superhero can beat every superhero or has already beaten him, if the publisher liked the idea.

Well yes but comic book heroes are a terrible example. They are re-written so so many times with varying levels of powers and abilities. Superman can in one comic series save the entire world all the time and then in another he's struggling to keep up with just one city, then in another he works as part of a large team and then in another he's evil.



Of course if GW decided to take the lore in the direction of Votann, Tau and Eldar beating the Imperium they could do it. However that would require changing the status of the various factions by considerable margins.

so when fans discuss things its within limits and one of those limits is the current power state of the various factions. Right now, today, in the lore as already established is one thing. The lore tomorrow? GW could just re-write it all how they want; or they could advance it down certain pathways that change the relative status of the factions against each other which would then change the potential outcomes.

Haha I like how a thread about lore turns into a thread about why its pointless to think about this stuff too much.

Greatest example of inconsistent narrative. I buy the 3rd edition rule book. On the back it says humnaity is on the verge of extinction...then I open it up and I'm like. "Wait a minute, the emperor conquered like the entire galaxy...there are trillions of humans? How is that verge of extinction?"

 Dekskull wrote:
Haha I like how a thread about lore turns into a thread about why its pointless to think about this stuff too much.

Greatest example of inconsistent narrative. I buy the 3rd edition rule book. On the back it says humnaity is on the verge of extinction...then I open it up and I'm like. "Wait a minute, the emperor conquered like the entire galaxy...there are trillions of humans? How is that verge of extinction?"

If the governance of The Imperium falls, it’s all over. Clunky and barely working as it is, it still manages to get its fighting forces where they’re needed, most of the time.

Take that organisation away? It’s every world for itself, and back to the Age of Strife. You’d be looking at mass starvation of Hive Worlds, as imports of food would be imperilled or outright halted. Lose those worlds, and a chunk of your recruitment goes with it, not to mention manufacturing of goods (even just Lasguns and other basic essentials).

There’s also the question of exactly how Kyn, Eldar and Tau would ally. One could argue Kyn would be interested in trade deals - except they have those with The Imperium. Those aren’t levels of trade you can easily replicate elsewhere.

I always think it’s the imperium on the brink, not humanity, it’s just in the imperiums interest to confuse the two. No imperium, humans would survive, they always do, they are like rats, you’d never get rid of them all.