Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

A Youtuber went through all the pages of the dex and the hotshot sniper screamed out at me immediately.

Heavy 1 S4 ap-2 D3

With the relic banner and Take aim with a Castellan nearby these get to hit on 2+ with reroll 1s, ignore hit and wound modifiers, ignore wound caps and fnp, reroll 1s to wound and are at ap-3. With Born soldiers every hit and wound roll of a 6 also causes a mortal wound on the unit plus 6s to hit auto wound. They ignore LOS. You can take 12 in a battalion. Plus Kasrkin get another doctrine to add to this if required (although not sure what aside from ignore cover in 18" will benefit it further)

12 of these shooting against a T5-7 2+AoC 4++ save average 9 damage before you count the MWs (which average out at 4 with the rerolls). C'tan, Abaddon, Master of transhit and other important buffing characters are in serious danger here. Obviously against targets with lower toughness and saves, this is even better.

I thought the autowound on a 6 to hit also counting as a wound roll of 6 wouldn't be too bad compared to Votaan, since only sniper rifles and 2 strats in the dex benefit from it. But when you throw in 3D snipers, things become a lot more crazy.

The Maths is right, can anyone tell me if I have misread the wording? Surely they will have noticed something this powerful?

Of course they noticed something this powerful.

Question

The codex is going to get errataed like 2 weeks after release. Anything stupidly powerful will get a poweraxe to its face.

How many CP/relics/character buff aura/warlord traits/orders/points are needed to pull off this wombo-combo?

It sounds broken, But if it’s like 1,000 points and 5 CP to do for one shot, and everything has to be lined up just right I’d worry about it less.

If it’s like a CP a turn for anywhere on the table, I’d worry.

I think you may be mistaken. From what I see, you can take 1 sniper rifle per kasrkin squad. you could take a total of 3 rifles in a battalion, not 12.

And it still doesn't ignore transhits and transwounds as those are not modifiers.

Its about time that snipers get to be a real threat. They were useless against anything with T4+ since the beginning of 8th.

Poly Ranger wrote:
12 of these

I don't really see the relevance. You get one per unit and even if you ignore the limit of three copies of a datasheet in normal games the footprint of 120 Kasrkin is going to be hopelessly unwieldy. If you're looking for a balance issue with Kasrkin its the cheap stratagem for a near-automatic 6 mortal wounds every time they shoot, especially if the reviews are accurate and the limit is 6 mortal wounds per defending unit not total. It's barely even worth the hassle of having to roll separate dice for the sniper when a plasma/HSVG unit can delete any unit you point it at, and do it anywhere on the table with the ability to stack up command phase buffs while safely behind LOS blocking terrain and then teleport into position for the kill.

I was assuming one of the earlier leaks that Lord Solar made Kasrkin Troops was real to get the 12 - also had been thinking you could take 2 in a squad not 1.

The buffs wouldn't have been an issue. 1 Castellan and 1 Command squad with banner (so 1CP) nearby the squads would have pulled it off. And the other 8 in each squad would have been able to direct their fire elsewhere so no real wastage. If 6 is possible (ie 2 per squad) - that would have still been damn powerful.

The op post is hot garbage… you won’t get 12 sniper rifles when it’s 1 per squad and he’s relying on keeping 12 squads within 6in of a relic banner? And all of these 120 models are on top of each other so he can bounce orders..

He basically has 2/3 of 2k list doing 4 mortal wounds whoop ti do…. The op is complete nonsense…. Nearly everyone uses the rule of 3 anyway…. Plus ignoring wound modifiers does NOT mean you ignore wound caps (it’s not a modifier)… not only is no one ever going to do this it’s not even legal to do most of what he stated. Ignore this post and move on.. sniper rifles are still mostly niche junk.

gungo wrote:
Plus ignoring wound modifiers does NOT mean you ignore wound caps (it’s not a modifier)…

The banner ignores modifiers and also ignores any ability that prevents wounds, which includes wound caps.

Poly Ranger wrote:

12 of these shooting against a T5-7 2+AoC 4++ save average 9 damage before you count the MWs (which average out at 4 with the rerolls). C'tan, Abaddon, Master of transhit and other important buffing characters are in serious danger here. Obviously against targets with lower toughness and saves, this is even better.

You can't take 12 of them... It's 1 per squad, and rule of 3. So you get 3 max.

gungo wrote:
The op post is hot garbage… you won’t get 12 sniper rifles when it’s 1 per squad and he’s relying on keeping 12 squads within 6in of a relic banner? And all of these 120 models are on top of each other so he can bounce orders..

He basically has 2/3 of 2k list doing 4 mortal wounds whoop ti do…. The op is complete nonsense…. Nearly everyone uses the rule of 3 anyway…. Plus ignoring wound modifiers does NOT mean you ignore wound caps (it’s not a modifier)… not only is no one ever going to do this it’s not even legal to do most of what he stated. Ignore this post and move on.. sniper rifles are still mostly niche junk.

Jeez you're a hostile one aren't you? I quite obviously explained my mistake in the post above yours stating that I was assuming the early leak about Lord Solar making Kasrkin troops was true and that it was 2 snipers per squad - which would have made a block of 60 benefitting from the flag more than dooable. Furthermore, it's been ruled all over the tournament scene that any rule that prevents rules that stop wounds (not a rule against a modifier - you are mixing the different abilities of the Relic up), works against wound caps. Other people quite nicely explained that it was 1 per squad. Wind the neck beard in mate.

Again, for the people in back:

THIS CODEX WILL GET THE LOV ROUGHLY 2 WEEKS AFTER RELEASE, NERFING IT BACK TO BARELY PLAYABLE.

Then we can get the remaining small bits out of the way, and onto 10th, which will hopefully toss a Wiley Peat nade on this tragedy of an edition.

Haha most likely.

Btw worth noting that big blocks are definitely good to take in the new dex. Last weekend I took a pure Scions army using rules from the leaks (technically not completely pure as I had a Castellan and I'd need Lord Solar to have a Castellan or other non Scion stuff in a Scions list but taking Lord Solar is a sacrifice I'm willing to make).
I was facing a top level Necron player who finished 3rd in a recent 18 man tournament who only lost to the top player who scored 299 points out of 300. His list is very fast assaulting crons backed up by things such as the Silent King, Tomb Blades and C'Tan. We were using LGT tournament scenery and layout and rolled for The Scouring - anyone who runs a shooting army will confirm that this is quite possibly the worst map for a shooting list.

I took a blob of 50 Scions, a Scion Command Squad and a Castellan. 20 of them in a 2 layer semi circle screening with the rest hidden inside.
I took the relic banner, 5++ relic and the WL trait that makes rapid fire act as though it is always in short range (this turned out pointless as the crons were in my face immediately and it would have been better to have either of the other 2 WLTs in this scenario). The blob was armed with plasma and HSVGs in each squad. Always benefitting from reroll 1s to hit and wound as well as an order (that could be prefectus).

Turn 1 I couldn't see anything aside from Scarabs and a tombblade unit that had all advanced onto my objectives to stop me scoring tertiary. They died obviously. Next turn I got smashed by the C'Tan, 2 units of Skorpteks, a unit of Wraiths and more Tomb Blades. I lost half the block. But despite that and just with the help of another squad that disembarked from a Taurox, I was able to completely wipe 12 Skorpteks (more like 17-18 with the amount of successful RP rolls) and the little robots that go with them, the C'Tan and a couple of Wraiths whilst other units dealt with the tomb blades and other 4 wraiths. When you have multiple units all benefitting from multiple powerful buffs, your damage output, even at half strength, is absolutely devastating.

I ultimately lost because until I get the Valks, Rough Riders that I've ordered and painted up my 2 Baneblades - I don't really have anything that can push up and contend the back objectives in the Scouring now Scions can't DS and order (plus he's an excellent player).

Reason I'm saying this is because you can ignore anyone who sneers at you and says that you can't do a blob of 50 or 60 - they don't have a clue what they are talking about. This has been shown time and time again by the most successful Guard armies in tournaments, from a subpar dex, being the ones that have taken mass infantry spams to benefit from mass buffs.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Haha most likely.

Btw worth noting that big blocks are definitely good to take in the new dex. Last weekend I took a pure Scions army using rules from the leaks (technically not completely pure as I had a Castellan and I'd need Lord Solar to have a Castellan or other non Scion stuff in a Scions list but taking Lord Solar is a sacrifice I'm willing to make).
I was facing a top level Necron player who finished 3rd in a recent 18 man tournament who only lost to the top player who scored 299 points out of 300. His list is very fast assaulting crons backed up by things such as the Silent King, Tomb Blades and C'Tan. We were using LGT tournament scenery and layout and rolled for The Scouring - anyone who runs a shooting army will confirm that this is quite possibly the worst map for a shooting list.

I took a blob of 50 Scions, a Scion Command Squad and a Castellan. 20 of them in a 2 layer semi circle screening with the rest hidden inside.
I took the relic banner, 5++ relic and the WL trait that makes rapid fire act as though it is always in short range (this turned out pointless as the crons were in my face immediately and it would have been better to have either of the other 2 WLTs in this scenario). The blob was armed with plasma and HSVGs in each squad. Always benefitting from reroll 1s to hit and wound as well as an order (that could be prefectus).

Turn 1 I couldn't see anything aside from Scarabs and a tombblade unit that had all advanced onto my objectives to stop me scoring tertiary. They died obviously. Next turn I got smashed by the C'Tan, 2 units of Skorpteks, a unit of Wraiths and more Tomb Blades. I lost half the block. But despite that and just with the help of another squad that disembarked from a Taurox, I was able to completely wipe 12 Skorpteks (more like 17-18 with the amount of successful RP rolls) and the little robots that go with them, the C'Tan and a couple of Wraiths whilst other units dealt with the tomb blades and other 4 wraiths. When you have multiple units all benefitting from multiple powerful buffs, your damage output, even at half strength, is absolutely devastating.

I ultimately lost because until I get the Valks, Rough Riders that I've ordered and painted up my 2 Baneblades - I don't really have anything that can push up and contend the back objectives in the Scouring now Scions can't DS and order (plus he's an excellent player).

Reason I'm saying this is because you can ignore anyone who sneers at you and says that you can't do a blob of 50 or 60 - they don't have a clue what they are talking about. This has been shown time and time again by the most successful Guard armies in tournaments, from a subpar dex, being the ones that have taken mass infantry spams to benefit from mass buffs.

A Deathstar. You took a Deathstar. That's not a new tactic. And it's a fairly good reason why Guard were nerfed into oblivion back around 8th. Because Guard Conscript blobs in 7th.

Yes I agree, and yep I know the terminology (I've been around off and on since 3rd discussing these things both online and offline). I'm not saying it is anything new. I'm using this as a counter point to the poster above who sneered claiming it's not possible to have such a big footprint.

There are no blobs in the new codex everything has a max of 10 models.