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The rules state that a random characteristic value is determined when required. Who gets to decide when thats the case ?

MODIFYING CHARACTERISTICS

You may encounter a characteristic that is a random value instead of a number. For example, a Move characteristic might be 2D6", or an Attacks value might be D6. When a unit with a random Move characteristic is selected to move, determine the entire unit’s move distance by rolling the indicated number of dice. For all other characteristics, roll to determine the value on an individual – per‑model or per-weapon – basis each time that characteristic is required.

Values are required when the game situation/rules require those values to be present to proceed with the game.


So you don't roll for movement until you are moving; you don't roll for any other stat until that stat is going to be used, unless the rules say otherwise (eg the rule might say roll for the stat at the start of turn or start of a sequence).


So you can't just roll your movement (or any other value) whenever you want.

Agreed, Overread. It could be written better, but I’ve never had any issues with random characteristics in a real game.

EDIT

 p5freak wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Values are required when the game situation/rules require those values to be present to proceed with the game.


So you don't roll for movement until you are moving; you don't roll for any other stat until that stat is going to be used, unless the rules say otherwise (eg the rule might say roll for the stat at the start of turn or start of a sequence).


So you can't just roll your movement (or any other value) whenever you want.

Ok, so my unit has D6 attacks, and i want to give them +1 to hit with a stratagem. But i dont know if its worth spending CP to do it. I require to know that value of their characteristics to proceed with the game, so i roll the dice to determine the number of attacks to see whether its worth spending CP, or not ?

When REQUIRED. Not when wanted.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Values are required when the game situation/rules require those values to be present to proceed with the game.


So you don't roll for movement until you are moving; you don't roll for any other stat until that stat is going to be used, unless the rules say otherwise (eg the rule might say roll for the stat at the start of turn or start of a sequence).


So you can't just roll your movement (or any other value) whenever you want.

Ok, so my unit has D6 attacks, and i want to give them +1 to hit with a stratagem. But i dont know if its worth spending CP to do it. I require to know that value of their characteristics to proceed with the game, so i roll the dice to determine the number of attacks to see whether its worth spending CP, or not ?

When REQUIRED. Not when wanted.

Who gets to decide at what point those values are required ?

 p5freak wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Values are required when the game situation/rules require those values to be present to proceed with the game.


So you don't roll for movement until you are moving; you don't roll for any other stat until that stat is going to be used, unless the rules say otherwise (eg the rule might say roll for the stat at the start of turn or start of a sequence).


So you can't just roll your movement (or any other value) whenever you want.

Ok, so my unit has D6 attacks, and i want to give them +1 to hit with a stratagem. But i dont know if its worth spending CP to do it. I require to know that value of their characteristics to proceed with the game, so i roll the dice to determine the number of attacks to see whether its worth spending CP, or not ?

When REQUIRED. Not when wanted.

Who gets to decide at what point those values are required ?

When the game cannot proceed without the value.

A unit with a 2d6" Move Characteristic doesn't need it determined until they are selected to move.
A unit with a 2d3 Attacks Characteristic doesn't need it determined until they're selected to attack.

If your +1 to-hit strat is usable then, then you can roll your Attacks Characteristic and then use it if it's high enough.
If the strat has to be used at the start of the phase, you'd have to use it before rolling their Attacks Characteristic.

As I said in my first post-it could be better defined and clarified, but I've never actually encountered issues with it in a real game.

 JNAProductions wrote:
When the game cannot proceed without the value.

Thats not what the rules are saying. They say when required.

 p5freak wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
When the game cannot proceed without the value.

Thats not what the rules are saying. They say when required.

If you want to use a +1 to-hit strat at the start of the phase on a unit of Spawn that have random attacks, can you do so without knowing the value?
Yes. You can. So it is not REQUIRED-you might want the information, but it is not required.

+1 The stat is only rolled for when that stat is going to be used by the game, when the game cannot continue without the stat being given a functional value.

Until that point any modifiers both pro and con can be applied without needing the value.


2D6 as an attack value works

If you then give it a +1 to attacks you'd get

2D6+1 as the value until you'd get to make your attacks. At which point you'd require an actual number and then you'd roll the dice.




Yes it might be nice to know what the random value would be before giving modifiers, but you can't. You have to give any bonuses and take the risk, or not. You could load a unit up with bonuses and get a terrible roll and it does very little or get a fantastic roll and it does great. That's part of the risk/reward of random dice roll values.

This is a bizarre attempt to engineer a rules gap, bit of a fail, OP.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This is a bizarre attempt to engineer a rules gap, bit of a fail, OP.

Typical p5 attempt to create a rules issue when one doesn't exist.

Seems that way.
Required is pretty clear as, err, a requirement to processs the random char. You might want to know but that's not the same as needing to know.

 p5freak wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
When the game cannot proceed without the value.

Thats not what the rules are saying...

This statement from you is false.

That is what the rules are saying. That is exactly what it means. When the game cannot proceed without the value = required to know.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Typical p5 attempt to create a rules issue when one doesn't exist.

^

P5 argues for the sake of it, he holds no position except the one which will prolong the argument. I barely ever come to YMDC and even I can see that.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
When the game cannot proceed without the value.

Thats not what the rules are saying...

This statement from you is false.

That is what the rules are saying. That is exactly what it means. When the game cannot proceed without the value = required to know.

My statement isnt false, and neither is JNAs. The rules say when required. It is required to proceed with the game. But its also required for me to know that value in order to continue with the game.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
When the game cannot proceed without the value.

Thats not what the rules are saying...

This statement from you is false.

That is what the rules are saying. That is exactly what it means. When the game cannot proceed without the value = required to know.

My statement isnt false, and neither is JNAs. The rules say when required. It is required to proceed with the game. But its also required for me to know that value in order to continue with the game.

You failing to acknowledge that your statement was false, does not make it not false.

You said "That is not what the rules are saying..." But the rules say exactly that.

When you are using a strat like "i want to give them +1 to hit with a stratagem." That does not fulfil the "each time that characteristic is required." as the D6 attacks is only required when the unit is selected to attack, which is after you use said strat. (Unless the strat can be used at any time, then roll for D6 attacks, then use the strat if you want).

"But i dont know if its worth spending CP to do it." is not "also required for me to know that value in order to continue with the game." (Unless you are talking about a specific strat and its timing that you did not mention).

It is dead simple ton understand, but it seems like you are willfully ignoring the RAW.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
When the game cannot proceed without the value.

Thats not what the rules are saying...

This statement from you is false.

That is what the rules are saying. That is exactly what it means. When the game cannot proceed without the value = required to know.

My statement isnt false, and neither is JNAs. The rules say when required. It is required to proceed with the game. But its also required for me to know that value in order to continue with the game.

So you can't say "I use" or "I don't"? Seeing that requires just basic grasp of speaking ability(or hand speak for mute) you must have some seriously unusual limitation. You are mute AND can't handsignal? How you play at all then? You can't indicate your actions, you can't roll dice...

It is not required for you to know the charactaristic before using the strat. You would like to, but you can use the strat just the same.

The game requires the characteristic when it can't proceed without knowing it.

And so ends another thread.