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Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

Since wounds don’t overspill it means your Primarch would be limited to only killing one model. Is there any way of preventing this from happening? Say if a member of a command squad challenges your Primarch? It just feels like a way to make your Primarch lose a turn of combat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/27 20:42:14



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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






Nope. If you are in a challenge that's it, you can only effect the model you are challenging.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

 Gert wrote:
Nope. If you are in a challenge that's it, you can only effect the model you are challenging.


Well you wouldn’t ever chose to do that. Like I ain’t issuing challenges and losing 2 attacks. But if I charge a unit in, they can then make a challenge to mean the Primarch can only kill one guy? Like how would you stop somebody feeding a guy a turn to Angron?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/27 20:50:27



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Can you not have a sergeant or something accept instead of the Primarch?
   
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England: Newcastle

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Can you not have a sergeant or something accept instead of the Primarch?


You can only do that once in most squads unless you have a command squad where they’re all chosen warriors. Rule seems very easy to exploit as you’re keeping the character out of the combat.

I think Angron can issue as many challenges as he wants so he can get out of this rule being used to trap him.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/27 20:56:11



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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Well you wouldn’t ever chose to do that. Like I ain’t issuing challenges and losing 2 attacks. But if I charge a unit in, they can then make a challenge to mean the Primarch can only kill one guy? Like how would you stop somebody feeding a guy a turn to Angron?

Considering the rarity of the situation you have specifically described, it's not an issue, unless you're running a Primarch around without any support in which case this is very much a "You problem" and not a "Game problem".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/27 21:16:27


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

 Gert wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Well you wouldn’t ever chose to do that. Like I ain’t issuing challenges and losing 2 attacks. But if I charge a unit in, they can then make a challenge to mean the Primarch can only kill one guy? Like how would you stop somebody feeding a guy a turn to Angron?

Considering the rarity of the situation you have specifically described, it's not an issue, unless you're running a Primarch around without any support in which case this is very much a "You problem" and not a "Game problem".


It’s very common. Put the Primarch with a squad of Cataphracts. The sergeant dies. At that point he can be challenge locked. If it’s a command squad or other chosen warriors unit they’re fighting, very common units, then they can just feed a guy a turn to the Primarch.





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/27 21:24:20



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Even if your opponent throws a mook into a challenge to tie up your Primarch unless the unit is feerless the overkill still counts for the purpose of combat res. Like, fulgrim stabs a sergeant 8 times, you get those 8 wounds for combat res even though the sarge only has 1. If anything it's good that when facing a primarch you have some options, leave more of your squad alive if you actually get out of combat alive at the cost of a character.

And if a unit with a primarch wins combat chances are you're going to run them down with their above average initiative.

But yes, as others have mentioned, you can just accept or decline the challenge with another character. If you have a medic around they're a good option to eat the decline with as you don't really lose much with a apothecary not fighting.
   
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England: Newcastle

cody.d. wrote:
Even if your opponent throws a mook into a challenge to tie up your Primarch unless the unit is feerless the overkill still counts for the purpose of combat res. Like, fulgrim stabs a sergeant 8 times, you get those 8 wounds for combat res even though the sarge only has 1. If anything it's good that when facing a primarch you have some options, leave more of your squad alive if you actually get out of combat alive at the cost of a character.

And if a unit with a primarch wins combat chances are you're going to run them down with their above average initiative.

But yes, as others have mentioned, you can just accept or decline the challenge with another character. If you have a medic around they're a good option to eat the decline with as you don't really lose much with an apothecary not fighting.


Ah so you don’t completely lose those wounds. That makes a lot more sense although it does stop your high initiative Primarch from just removing those tacticals before they can attack.

How could you have a Primarch vs Primarch challenge then? The risk would be that you issue a challange and they put forward a body Guard to challange lock you. Can probably rely on good faith in friendly games but it seems really easy to exploit.

See I don’t think you should have those “options”. If you have paid 500 points for a Primarch and they’ve made it to one of a handful of fights, you shouldn’t be able to game the challenge system to essentially remove one of those turns or allow the rest of the unit to shred their bodyguard.

Lore wise the Primarch would just kill the sergeant and then go into the rest of the unit which is well represented by just rolling the dice and using their precision strikes.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/11/27 21:33:45


 
   
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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It’s very common. Put the Primarch with a squad of Cataphracts. The sergeant dies. At that point he can be challenge locked. If it’s a command squad or other chosen warriors unit they’re fighting, very common units, then they can just feed a guy a turn to the Primarch.

So if you are fighting a unit that has Chosen Warriors and your accompanying unit has lost its non-Primarch Character model, the accompanying unit would somehow have to utterly fail in killing the opposing unit for this problem to occur. So unless you are running your Primarch around with a unit that cannot do damage in combat and therefore protect their Primarch, this is not going to be a common issue.
Mountains out of molehills in every sense of the phrase.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

A unit which gets to retain all of the attacks on models that would have died to the Primarch. Meaning they lose more models than they would have. That can make a huge difference to a game. It’s removing the killing potential of a 500 point model.

Plus, from a gameplay standpoint it’s not very fun or narrative driven to have a random sergeant be able to take your Primarch out of the fight by challenging them. Instead of killing ten guys, you kill one. Okay, you win combat res. But I don’t think that’s in the spirit of the game. I don’t want to see Fulgrim kill three guys and his squad runs down three lots of tacticals. You want to see him actually remove the models.

You probably wouldn’t see it as much since usually you have elite terminators with chosen warriors. Which is weird to have a rule purpose built to prevent the challange system being exploited. But not every legion has that kind of unit and it’s a little limiting to be forced to use that kind of unit or play at a handicap.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/27 21:45:15



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I'm pretty sure the excess wounds are counted. But I have no idea how brutal, instant death combination would interact with that. Like if a character dread got into a challenge with a two wound model. If he uses brutal to cause 4X3 wounds that all cause instant death to effectively cause 2 wounds do you then get 24 wounds for combat res as the dread reduces this hero to a fine red paste?

You'll get into a PVP challenge one of two ways. Being alone and thus can't decline, or cause you want to risk it for the biscuit and accept or call the challenge. Most of the time a PVP combat is pretty drawn out unless you have of of the primarchs that can really hold their own in a challenge or have brutal on their weapons. A dread can usually take out a primach though, you only need a handful of those brutal 3 attacks to get through for them to be taken out of the match.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

cody.d. wrote:
I'm pretty sure the excess wounds are counted. But I have no idea how brutal, instant death combination would interact with that. Like if a character dread got into a challenge with a two wound model. If he uses brutal to cause 4X3 wounds that all cause instant death to effectively cause 2 wounds do you then get 24 wounds for combat res as the dread reduces this hero to a fine red paste?

You'll get into a PVP challenge one of two ways. Being alone and thus can't decline, or cause you want to risk it for the biscuit and accept or call the challenge. Most of the time a PVP combat is pretty drawn out unless you have of of the primarchs that can really hold their own in a challenge or have brutal on their weapons. A dread can usually take out a primach though, you only need a handful of those brutal 3 attacks to get through for them to be taken out of the match.



How can it last that long? I ve only used a Primarch once in 2nd Ed. I had Dorne, he had Curze. That was over and done in two rounds of combat. Curze winning pretty handily. It was end of the night so we basically played it out as if they were on their own. But I got the impression the fights would be over very quickly from that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/27 22:01:03


 
   
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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






 Totalwar1402 wrote:
A unit which gets to retain all of the attacks on models that would have died to the Primarch. Meaning they lose more models than they would have. That can make a huge difference to a game. It’s removing the killing potential of a 500 point model.

Great, my very expensive unit hasn't been taken out by a model that isn't attacking them. I'd say that's pretty damn fair.

Plus, from a gameplay standpoint it’s not very fun or narrative driven to have a random sergeant be able to take your Primarch out of the fight by challenging them. Instead of killing ten guys, you kill one. Okay, you win combat res. But I don’t think that’s in the spirit of the game. I don’t want to see Fulgrim kill three guys and his squad runs down three lots of tacticals. You want to see him actually remove the models.

I would argue that challenging an enemy leader and then 5 of his mates suddenly having heart attacks five feet away is worse. The old challenge system meant that if you got challenged by a vastly superior opponent there was no point in even playing out the combat and it just negated the point of even having the challenge mechanic.
Now the mechanic actually has a reason to exist outside of Death Star slug fests.
   
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England: Newcastle

Not really. In my Sons of Horus army he would be with ten Justarian and this trick (and it is a trick) wouldn’t work. But you’re compelling me to only use that type of bodyguard unit to basically be ignore a mechanic and prevent it being exploited. What you’re describing is a rule that’s meant to enable you to have thematic duels and not a trick to trap you into throwing a combat.

It can lead to weird narrative points where your Primarch has to push their sergeant forward to stop your opponent stun locking you. Which comes across as being cowardly. Even though the Prinarch has the stat line to easily kill six of the same model at once. But if you accepted a challenge that you could throw a combat. Say it’s two units of terminators and one has a Primarch. Suddenly with that challange youve just got two equal units fighting eachother.

No it’s because the unit has the profile to kill ten marines a turn. So he resolves his challenge and then proceeds to kill the rest of the squad. They don’t have heart attacks. That’s just the effect of his profile being applied to the unit.

1.0 had it perfect and that accurately reflects what happens in the books.

They’ve assumed that people would play in the spirit of the game and wouldn’t abuse it. Well players would want their Primarches to duel so they would never just try to stun lock them.

It would be fine if you could refuse a challenge and still chose to kill the enemy unit in standard combat. At that point the challenge only happens when both players want it to happen. Which, makes sense, that’s what happen in a duel. But forcing the player to have to either:

A) Accept the challenge and lose a round of close combat

B) Refuse and lose a round of close combat

C) Only use units with Chosen Warrior which gives you the option to essentially ignore the mechanic entirely.

Plus it doesn’t just apply to Primarches. It’s really any character. Sigismund. Throw a sergeant in and that means your Praetor can kill his unit.




Um, a thousand point unit with a Primarch should be able to curb stomp a tactical squad. There was nothing wrong with that in prior editions. Not sure why you would be wasting one of maybe two to three turns of combat on a tactical squad. But I don’t see why you think it’s good thing for the challange system to be “no you can’t use your Primarch this turn.”





This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2022/11/27 22:38:47



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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Not really. In my Sons of Horus army he would be with ten Justarian and this trick wouldn’t work. But you’re compelling me to only use that type of bodyguard unit to basically be ignore a mechanic and prevent it being exploited. What you’re describing is a rule that’s meant to enable you to have thematic duels and not a trick to trap you into throwing a combat.

You're determined to see a problem when there really isn't one. The new challenge rules prevent high-damage output characters (such as Praetors or Primarchs) from killing half a unit when they aren't fighting the models. You still keep the morale benefit of overkilling in a challenge but now the defending unit actually has a chance to strike back at the non-challenging models in the attacking unit.
As for thematic, how is it a thematic duel if half a unit falls dead to attacks leveled at their leader? "Oh no Sergeant Brian has died. We better die in solidarity."

It can lead to weird narrative points where your Primarch has to push their sergeant forward to stop your opponent stun locking you. Which comes across as being cowardly. Even though the Prinarch has the stat line to easily kill six of the same model at once. But if you accepted a challenge that you could throw a combat. Say it’s two units of terminators and one has a Primarch. Suddenly with that challange youve just got two equal units fighting eachother.

It is your choice to accept the challenge with the Primarch. Focussing on a narrative doesn't force you to do anything because you can justify anything as part of your narrative.
Horus didn't fight a Terminator Sergeant? The combat was beneath him and he had eager underlings looking to prove themselves. There I've just given a narrative justification for why Horus didn't accept the challenge and one of the Justaerin did. And the combat isn't equal because you will have 10 Terminators to your opponent's 9. The combat is still in your favour.

No it’s because the unit has the profile to kill ten marines a turn. So he resolves his challenge and then proceeds to kill the rest of the squad. 1.0 had it perfect. They’ve assumed that people would play in the spirit of the game and wouldn’t abuse it.

In a challenge, you attack an individual model, not the unit. The Primarch isn't attacking the unit of Terminators, they are attacking the unit leader. For all intents and purposes it is a separate combat, hence the point of it being a duel.
You are looking for a problem where one doesn't exist.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

@Gert

Because you want to kill the unit. I don’t want to fight the sergeant. This isn’t me issuing challenges because I wouldn’t want that scenario to happen. It’s the opponent trying to use the challenge system to manipulate combat.

For example I charge Dorne and 8 terminators into a five unit terminator squad. Dorne will kill that squad. I am going for my dice pool to roll attacks. Iam not interested in going for his sergeant or challenges. Indeed I’d lose my reaping blow attacks. I want to target the unit specifically. The Night Lords player then issues their own challange. Now in the event I pushed my own sergeant forward and got a ton of grief from a spectator who insisted I should have accepted that challenge. You say there’s narrative reasons but when people spend ten minutes insisting otherwise I shouldn’t have to be putting up with that. You’re going from a combat where you lose nobody to having to take 8 power fist attacks…

The challenge is preventing you from targeting the unit. It’s not about trying to snipe the character and kill the unit. Not interested. As above, I am quite happy just attacking the unit. You have precision strikes anyway for that. It’s that they can call you into a challenge to prevent you just bulldozing the unit.

Well that killing power is the points you’re paying for. So it should never be mitigated. I could buy twenty lascannons for that with augury scanners and happily be removing more marines a turn then the Primarch can ever kill in close combat.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/11/27 22:57:14



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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






If your opponent is being a prat because you accepted with a Sergeant rather than the Primarch, that is not a problem with the game that is a problem with the opponent.
You're using a sledgehammer to kill a fly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/27 22:59:16


 
   
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England: Newcastle

 Gert wrote:
If your opponent is being a prat because you accepted with a Sergeant rather than the Primarch, that is not a problem with the game that is a problem with the opponent.
You're using a sledgehammer to kill a fly.


It was a spectator, not the player.


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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






Hells horses my guy. One random spectator whinges and you want to change a whole game mechanic to suit them? Just tell them to get stuffed and move on with your life.
   
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 Gert wrote:
If your opponent is being a prat because you accepted with a Sergeant rather than the Primarch, that is not a problem with the game that is a problem with the opponent.
You're using a sledgehammer to kill a fly.


I mean, it worked with Horus right? Challenges the emperor to a duel, first Sanguinius jumps on the sword for him then that random guardsman accepts the next challenge instead of big E.
   
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I'd also like to point out that 7th ed/1st ed HH challenge rules and letting wounds overflow was a massive change to how historically GW wrote challenge rules and 2.0 was a return to how it's worked for decades before 7th changed it. I can't tell you how many times I forgot to kill off models because 20 years of Fantasy taught me otherwise and it never made sense to me anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/28 12:04:33


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 Platuan4th wrote:
I'd also like to point out that 7th ed/1st ed HH challenge rules and letting wounds overflow was a massive change to how historically GW wrote challenge rules and 2.0 was a return to how it's worked for decades before 7th changed it. I can't tell you how many times I forgot to kill off models because 20 years of Fantasy taught me otherwise and it never made sense to me anyway.


I think challenges should be mutual and you declare who wants to fight who before committing. Both players agree they want their character to fight as a roll of the dice to swing a combat. If you don’t want to fight that challenge then it becomes an ordinary fight. That’s how it should work.

A lot of time it being used in place of precision strike or shot to snipe characters or sergeants out of units. There are work around like bringing chosen warriors and apothecaries. But that’s basically saying “we know this mechanic can be exploited, so we’ll give ways to mitigate it on your more Killy units.

You shouldn’t be in the position where you just want to kill the enemy unit and can be prevented from fighting a normal combat.


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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






Except that's not how a challenge works. The whole concept is throwing down the glove and whoever picks it up has to fight. Refusing a challenge has to have some sort of negative otherwise there is literally no point to the mechanic.
Challenges are also entirely optional, neither player has to issue one.
As a final point, working around mechanics is a sign of someone who understands good tactics. Worried that a good unit leader will get nuked in a challenge? Bring some Apothecaries or Techmarines to eat the damage. If you can't use mechanics to your advantage then that's a You Problem.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/28 14:17:22


 
   
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So your issue is basically Challenge being a mechanic at all, got it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/28 14:57:57


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Because in practice it’s used like precision strike to snipe your sergeants. Not because you either player wants thematic fights. Which also just slows down the pace of play for no reason.

It’s not optional. The person making the challenge does so because so since they know they can win or force the character out of the fight. It’s a gamey mechanic.

Yes, there are work arounds. So why have the rule at all of the rule doesn’t work if you have apothecaries and chosen warrior?


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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






Because there are a limited number of Chosen Warrior units and not everyone will take Apothecaries or Techmarines in their lists, let alone in every single unit.
Who gives a rats if you can kill unit Sergeants with it? That is literally the whole point of challenges you muppet.
You're also assuming every single person who uses the challenge mechanic is doing so to personally screw you over when that's utter nonsense.
If your gaming group is filled with meta-chasers and net-listers then that sucks for you but by no means is that the fault of the game.
   
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There is a simple solution to it.

Run a hierarchy and units can at maximum chalange one above their station whielst top down is always allowed.

f.e. Troops can challange Elite, FA and Heavy support champions.

Elite, Fa and Heavy support can challange up to HQ,

HQ can challange primarchs.

There.

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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






That's not a solution because it adds more problems and solves nothing.
Firstly, many RoW make certain units Troops so another level of rules needs to be added to then account for the various RoW changes e.g. Veterans and Terminators in a Pride of the Legion detachment can't challenge the HQ of an opposing Sky Hunter Phalanx detachment because they are now Troops, not Elites. That's just added a bunch more needless rules bloat to then clarify if a unit retains its original Force Org designation.
Secondly, why are Heavy Support or Fast Attack units (many of which are not CQC oriented) getting challenge preferences over dedicated Troop CQC units like Assault Marines or Despoilers? Why would an Emperor's Children or White Scars Tactical Sergeant not challenge a strong opponent to which they could test their skills?
Thirdly, Apothecaries and Techmarines are Elites choices that get attached to other units. Do they still retain their Elite choice status if assigned to Troops unit? Again more needless bloat to clarify this situation.
Finally, why shouldn't a Despoiler Sergeant kitted out with heavy CQC gear be able to challenge a Chaplain or Praetor? HH is a dice based game and the Praetor could very well miss or do no damage to the Sergeant who could in turn kill the Praetor. You've removed the chance for genuine narrative moments where the underdog kills the strong enemy to solve a problem that is minute.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/28 17:12:23


 
   
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Because the sentiment behind the challenge system is to represent the desire to make games more fluffy and narrative. You already have precision strikes for the purpose of sniping characters. So for one duplicate rules that serve no purpose. It’s not in keeping with the sentiment behind the rules.

If you think the only purpose of the rule is to allow characters to be sniped well you’re admitting to just treating as a form of precision strike. It’s just gaming the system. There’s no actual challenge being issued or duel being fought.

The vast majority of challenges comes down to, doomstack unit charges tactical squad and knows that Sergeants power fist might kill one or two guys. So let’s challenge the guy to kill him before he can fight. At which point you can kill the highest leadership model, cut out the one model that can do damage or force them not to fight. That turns a combat where the tactical squad might kill a handful of dudes to nobody.

I’d rather just be able to say, I don’t want a challenge and start rolling dice. Quicker, faster, less nonsense and challenges by your own admission have nothing to do with adding narrative so nothing of worth would be lost.


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