Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
The idea is to keep some of the elements but also make it a little more interactive and add some options, rather than every power being cast on 2d6.
It's still a little rough but I'd love to hear your thoughts:
The Psychic Phase
Old:
Spoiler:
The active player rolls a number of d6s equal to 2 plus the total number of powers his psykers can manifest. For example, if he controls one psyker capable of manifesting 2 powers and one psyker capable of manifesting 1 power, he would roll 5d6.
Once rolled, these dice should be kept aside, so that each dice retains the number rolled. This is the active player's Psychic Pool.
The defending player outs aside a number of d6s equal to 1 plus the total number of powers his casters can deny (they do not need to be rolled yet).
Revised:
The active player rolls a number of d6s equal to 2 times the total number of powers his psykers can manifest. For example, if he controls one psyker capable of manifesting 2 powers and one psyker capable of manifesting 1 power, he would roll 6d6.
Once rolled, these dice should be kept aside, so that each dice retains the number rolled. This is the active player's Psychic Pool.
The defending player outs aside a number of d6s equal to 1d6 plus the total number of powers his casters can deny (they do not need to be rolled yet).
Casting and Denying Powers
The active player may spend dice from his Psychic Pool to manifest powers. In order to do so, he chooses a psyker and a power to attempt to manifest (as well as a target, if applicable). He must then spend a number of dice with a total equal or greater than the Casting Value of the power.
e.g. if the player's Psychic Pool contains dice with values 1, 5, 3, 4, and 2, he could cast a Casting Value 7 power by spending either the 3 and the 4 or the 5 and the 2, or by spending the 1, the 2 and the 4. Alternatively, he could also spend the 5 and the 3, which would exceed the Casting Value.
If the total value of the dice exceeds the Casting Value of the power, it will be harder to deny but also risks Perils of the Warp (see below).
Once the power has been cast, the defending player may attempt to deny it, using a psyker within range (which has not yet used all its deny attempts). To do so, he spends dice from his own pool, though he may not use more dice than 1 plus his psyker's deny attempts. e.g. a psyker that can deny up to 1 power per turn may spend no more than 2d6.
If the total rolled on the deny dice is greater than the total of the dice used to cast the power, then the power is nullified (the respective dice are still expended).
Once the power has been resolved or denied, the active player may attempt to manifest additional powers in the same manner.
The pschic phase ends when the active player has no more dice in his pool or opts not to cast any additional powers. Either way, any remaining dice in either players' pools are discarded.
Perils of the Warp
Manifesting psychic energy is risky, and casters who try to channel too much warp energy risk suffering severe harm.
If a psyker manifests a power with total dice greater than the Casting Value of the power, then once the power has been resolved or denied, he must roll on the Perils of the Warp Table before the psychic phase can continue:
Old:
Spoiler:
Roll 1d6 and add the number by which the dice total exceeded the Casting Value:
1-3 - No effect.
4-5 - The psyker suffers 1 Mortal Wound.
6-7 - Roll 1d3+1. You may discard an equivalent number of psychic dice from your pool. For each dice you don't (or cannot) discard, the psyker suffers 1 mortal wound.
8-9 - The psyker is unharmed but each unit within 3" suffers 1d3 Mortal Wounds.
10-11 - The psyker suffers 1d3 Mortal Wounds and the psychic phase ends.
12+ - The psyker is removed as a casualty, each unit within 6" suffers 1d3+1 Mortal Wounds, and 1d3+1 dice are lost from the Psychic Pool.
Revised
Roll 1d6 and add the number by which the dice total exceeded the Casting Value:
1-4 - No effect.
5-6 - The psyker suffers 1 Mortal Wound.
6-7 - Roll 1d3+1. You may discard an equivalent number of psychic dice from your pool. For each dice you don't (or cannot) discard, the psyker suffers 1 mortal wound.
8-9 - The psyker is unharmed but each unit within 3" suffers 1 Mortal Wound.
10-11 - The psyker suffers 1d3 Mortal Wounds. If he survives, he permanently loses the power he was attempting to manifest.
12+ - The psyker is removed as a casualty, each unit within 6" suffers 1 Mortal Wounds, and the Psychic Phase ends.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/05 19:35:48
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Still chewing on it, but it looks interesting. I think you probably achieved your goal of making it more interactive; it does feel like this system would make you feel more in control of your casting/denying. I like the idea of being able to pump more dice into a power to guarantee it will go off at the cost of suffering perils. I also like that it lets you play it safe and never perils by accident.
Going back and forth on perils results that do and don't deal mortal wounds to nearby units does mitigate the risk of players throwing cheap psykers into the middle of the enemy to intentionally explode. Although I could still see people doing it. Two farseers and a warlock gives me 7 dice (average sum of the rolls = 24.5) which is enough to guarantee a perils result of 12+ plus a little left over for an additional psychic power. So a sacrificial warlock could be thrown forward, smite the enemy (presumably for d6 mortal wounds unless we adjust how smite works) and then do d3 mortals to every enemy unit in range.
I would worry that the number of psychic dice might not scale very well. The average result of 1d6 is 3.5. Unless the cost of most powers is reduced, you'll be looking at needing about 2 dice (total average value of 7) to cast most powers. So in an army with 3 psykers that cast 1 power each, I'd have 2+3 = 5 dice, which means that there aren't enough dice for each psyker to reliably cast a power. The issue gets worse if you add more 1 cast psykers. Psykers that can potentially cast 2 or more powers raise the likelihood that you'll have enough dice for each psyker to cast at least 1 power, but those psykers will be unlikely to be casting the maximum number of powers they're allowed. (A 2 cast psyker needs 4 dice to semi-reliably cast 2 powers).
Additionally, it seems like you'd frequently find yourself unable to cast without perils with your last few psykers. An army with a single farseer and no other psykers would have 4 psychic dice, so the chances of having the dice results needed to cast a WC7 power without perils are okay but not great. And then the chances of having the dice to also cast a second power without failing and without perils are quite a bit worse.
So basically, I worry that your system would both prevent psykers from casting as many powers, and would also increase the frequency with which they hurt themselves by casting. Which kind of counters the upsides mentioned earlier of being able to feel like you have more control over your powers and being able to cast safely. I think you'd see "psychic batteries" like we did back in 7th edition, and that's not something I like, personally.
Additionally, this method feels like it would slow the game down somewhat. It introduces mind games that will make people pause to consider which dice they want to put into casting and how many dice they want to spend trying to deny. Plus, you'd be rolling on Perils pretty frequently, and every result of 6+ requires at least 1 more die roll to resolve on top of that.
As-is, I don't think I'd want to switch over to this system, but there are definitely some things about it that I like.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
The only upside to a Primaris Psyker against Nids, Thousand Sons or Grey Knights would be denying powers which is pretty boring.
Some kind of rhyme and reason and flavour text to the table you've got would be nice.
Roll 1D6 and add the number by which the dice total exceeded the warp charge value: 1-3 The Fortress of Faith: No effect. 4-6 The Great Eye: This PSYKER suffers 1 mortal wound. 7-9 The Blind Seer: Remove 2 dice from your Psychic Pool. 10+ The Daemon: Each unit within 3" of this PSYKER suffers 1 mortal wound.
I have not included any insane damage mortal wound thing because I'd be scared of a Psyker deliberately exploding and dealing a bazillion mortal wounds. The results are in segments of 3 making it easier to remember what is where on the table. I used cards from the Emperor's Tarot for flavour. You can copy parts as you like.
You've got some small irrelevant errors in formatting, I know it's hard to keep up when GW changes the format every edition. You should try it out though, see if it feels right, it doesn't seem broken.
Wyldhunt wrote: I would worry that the number of psychic dice might not scale very well.
That was a design decision in WHFB, which was appropriate for a less high magic world. But in a galaxy with armies made up entirely of psykers it does seem odd. You could have 2D6 in the pool for each power you can cast or deny and remove the bonus 2/1 dice.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/04 07:02:37
Going back and forth on perils results that do and don't deal mortal wounds to nearby units does mitigate the risk of players throwing cheap psykers into the middle of the enemy to intentionally explode. Although I could still see people doing it. Two farseers and a warlock gives me 7 dice (average sum of the rolls = 24.5) which is enough to guarantee a perils result of 12+ plus a little left over for an additional psychic power. So a sacrificial warlock could be thrown forward, smite the enemy (presumably for d6 mortal wounds unless we adjust how smite works) and then do d3 mortals to every enemy unit in range.
Some kind of rhyme and reason and flavour text to the table you've got would be nice.
Roll 1D6 and add the number by which the dice total exceeded the warp charge value:
1-3 The Fortress of Faith: No effect.
4-6 The Great Eye: This PSYKER suffers 1 mortal wound.
7-9 The Blind Seer: Remove 2 dice from your Psychic Pool.
10+ The Daemon: Each unit within 3" of this PSYKER suffers 1 mortal wound.
I have not included any insane damage mortal wound thing because I'd be scared of a Psyker deliberately exploding and dealing a bazillion mortal wounds. The results are in segments of 3 making it easier to remember what is where on the table. I used cards from the Emperor's Tarot for flavour. You can copy parts as you like.
Funnily enough, I actually started off with bits of flavour for the effects, but I thought it might make it harder to read - so I stuck to the crunch for the time being.
That aside, I'll admit I had the same concerns as to whether it would make psychic suicide-bombers too attractive. Okay, I'll tone down the AoE Mortal Wounds to try and mitigate that possibility.
One thing I will say is that I'd prefer Perils of the Warp to be a bit more impactful - particularly the higher results. One of the things that bugs me right now is that Perils of the Warp is such a nothing-burger. I was trying to find a balance between 7th's nonsense (where you could spend 2 power dice and still blow your psyker and his unit to kingdom come), and the current version where Perils mildly tickles your psyker.
I would worry that the number of psychic dice might not scale very well. The average result of 1d6 is 3.5. Unless the cost of most powers is reduced, you'll be looking at needing about 2 dice (total average value of 7) to cast most powers. So in an army with 3 psykers that cast 1 power each, I'd have 2+3 = 5 dice, which means that there aren't enough dice for each psyker to reliably cast a power. The issue gets worse if you add more 1 cast psykers. Psykers that can potentially cast 2 or more powers raise the likelihood that you'll have enough dice for each psyker to cast at least 1 power, but those psykers will be unlikely to be casting the maximum number of powers they're allowed. (A 2 cast psyker needs 4 dice to semi-reliably cast 2 powers).
Additionally, it seems like you'd frequently find yourself unable to cast without perils with your last few psykers. An army with a single farseer and no other psykers would have 4 psychic dice, so the chances of having the dice results needed to cast a WC7 power without perils are okay but not great. And then the chances of having the dice to also cast a second power without failing and without perils are quite a bit worse.
vict0988 wrote: That was a design decision in WHFB, which was appropriate for a less high magic world. But in a galaxy with armies made up entirely of psykers it does seem odd. You could have 2D6 in the pool for each power you can cast or deny and remove the bonus 2/1 dice.
This is a fair point. I hesitated on 2d6 per power because I thought it would make it too easy to cast them (though I suppose you could always tweak the costs one way or another to bring them more into line with the average dice).
But yeah, on reflection I'd agree that 2d6 per power is closer to the mark than what I had.
vict0988 wrote: The only upside to a Primaris Psyker against Nids, Thousand Sons or Grey Knights would be denying powers which is pretty boring.
Would you be kind enough to elaborate on this a little more? I'm not sure I understand what it is you're looking for here.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
I think you're fine you fixed it in the revision or I misread, I was concerned with the defender drowning the defender in dice. Only being able to do so with a caster that can deny twice should be fine.
I will note that giving the player 2d6 per psyker means that you end up with mechanics that are quite similar to what we already have, just with the option to shift some dice away from the psykers you care less about and towards the psykers you care more about.
Thinking on the issue of how hard it can be to get the exact numbers you need to avoid perils, maybe just let players declare that their total is equal to the WC of the power? So you can opt to avoid perils in exchange for lowering the difficulty of denying your power? Granted, that means that you'll just never perils if your opponent doesn't have psychic defense.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Wyldhunt wrote: I will note that giving the player 2d6 per psyker means that you end up with mechanics that are quite similar to what we already have, just with the option to shift some dice away from the psykers you care less about and towards the psykers you care more about.
Thinking on the issue of how hard it can be to get the exact numbers you need to avoid perils, maybe just let players declare that their total is equal to the WC of the power? So you can opt to avoid perils in exchange for lowering the difficulty of denying your power? Granted, that means that you'll just never perils if your opponent doesn't have psychic defense.
I think this is something you need to test by doing 10 psychic phases. But who'd be crazy enough to do that?
So anyway Thomas „Traumdieb“ Krömmer's list from December has 5 manifests in his Psychic phase.
Holy gak that seems powerful lol. Supersmiting is a +6 miscast so I'm not sure if it's good but with this many casters it doesn't seem like you're going to miscast on other spells unless you want to and you can supersmite more than you normal smite and you never fail any spells. Maybe it'd be better to go back to 2+X instead of 2X dice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/06 06:12:02
Wyldhunt wrote: I will note that giving the player 2d6 per psyker means that you end up with mechanics that are quite similar to what we already have, just with the option to shift some dice away from the psykers you care less about and towards the psykers you care more about.
That's fair. I'll respond to this a little more below (as vict0988 raises some related issues).
Thinking on the issue of how hard it can be to get the exact numbers you need to avoid perils, maybe just let players declare that their total is equal to the WC of the power? So you can opt to avoid perils in exchange for lowering the difficulty of denying your power? Granted, that means that you'll just never perils if your opponent doesn't have psychic defense.
I'd say not, simply because this is meant to be a core aspect of my system - if you don't want to waste power dice then you'll usually have to risk at least a mild miscast or two.
Wyldhunt wrote: I will note that giving the player 2d6 per psyker means that you end up with mechanics that are quite similar to what we already have, just with the option to shift some dice away from the psykers you care less about and towards the psykers you care more about.
Thinking on the issue of how hard it can be to get the exact numbers you need to avoid perils, maybe just let players declare that their total is equal to the WC of the power? So you can opt to avoid perils in exchange for lowering the difficulty of denying your power? Granted, that means that you'll just never perils if your opponent doesn't have psychic defense.
I think this is something you need to test by doing 10 psychic phases. But who'd be crazy enough to do that?
So anyway Thomas „Traumdieb“ Krömmer's list from December has 5 manifests in his Psychic phase.
Holy gak that seems powerful lol. Supersmiting is a +6 miscast so I'm not sure if it's good but with this many casters it doesn't seem like you're going to miscast on other spells unless you want to and you can supersmite more than you normal smite and you never fail any spells. Maybe it'd be better to go back to 2+X instead of 2X dice.
Wow, thank you for actually taking the time to do that.
I'll be honest, I hadn't considered that this would allow people to super-Smite automatically. Something that might need to be tweaked if this was ever implemented, I guess.
It also looks like 2d6-per-cast is too generous. I think the casting values for a lot of powers would have to be adjusted upwards to make this work.
I was going to ask if you'd be willing to test the 2d6 + 1d6-per-power system. However, your feedback (as well as that of Wyldhunt) has convinced me that I might need to go back to the drawing board. I think, on reflection, there need to be some uncertainty as to whether any individual casting succeeds or fails.
In case it's of interest, I was trying to lean a little more towards 7th, where you could spend more power on a given cast, albeit with more risk. However, I was trying to balance the risk a bit better (so that the more power you add, the more dangerous the resulting miscast), as well as reducing the often ridiculous casting values in 7th.
I think my system could be functional (with some further tweaking), but I think it might be better to look to an alternative that still allows a degree of control, but also has enough randomness that casts are never fully guaranteed. Maybe a system where you're looking for 'successes' (say, 3+), with stronger powers requiring more successes? I'll have a think and see if I can come up with anything.
Anyway, thank you again for your feedback, guys. It's really helped to uncover the flaws in my system.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
