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A LRBT that is within engagement range of an enemy unit wants to shoot with its turret weapon at another enemy unit outside of engagement range. There are two rules which say it gets -1 to hit. One is turret weapon, the other is big guns never tire. One could assume that the word "still" from turret weapon mean the -1 to hit from big guns never tire, but it doesnt actually say that. Does the tank get -1 to hit from turret weapon (and +1), and -1 to hit from big guns never tire ?

TURRET WEAPONS
Some Astra Militarum ranged weapons are turret weapons and have the Turret Weapon ability in their profile. Each time a model with such a weapon is selected to shoot:
If that model is within Engagement Range of any enemy units, it can still target and resolve attacks against enemy units that are not within Engagement Range of it with weapons with this ability. Note that when making such attacks, you must still subtract 1 from hit rolls due to enemy models being within Engagement Range.

Each time that model makes an attack with that weapon, add 1 to that attack’s hit roll.

BIG GUNS NEVER TIRE
A VEHICLE or MONSTER model can make attacks with ranged weapons even when its unit is within Engagement Range of enemy units, but it can only make such attacks against enemy units that it is within Engagement Range of. In such circumstances, VEHICLE and MONSTER models can target an enemy unit even if other friendly units are within Engagement Range of the same enemy unit. Note that if a VEHICLE or MONSTER unit has more than one ranged weapon, you can still choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing model’s unit, but they will only be able to make the attacks with that weapon if all enemy units within Engagement Range of the firing model’s unit have been destroyed when you come to resolve those attacks. In addition, when a VEHICLE or MONSTER model shoots a Heavy weapon, subtract 1 from the hit rolls when resolving that weapon’s attacks while any enemy units are within Engagement Range of that model’s unit.

The Turret rule is an additional rule that stacks on top of the Big Guns Never Tire rule.

BGNT allows you to target an enemy unit not in Engagement Range even when the Vehicle has units within Engagement Range of it. However, you are not allowed to resolve those attacks unless your other attacks eliminate any models within Engagement Range of it. It also stipulates that the Vehicle has a -1 to Hit with Heavy weapons when enemy units are within Engagement Range of it.

Turret allows the unit to resolve attacks with said weapon when it targets a unit not in Engagement Range of itself despite the presence of enemy models within Engagement Range of itself. The still comment is a reminder that BGNT provides a -1 to Hit with Heavy weapons while an enemy unit is within Engagement Range of you regardless of the target. Note this still comment is bad since it never mentions the penalty is for Heavy weapons, probably because the designers made sure all Turret weapons have the Heavy type.

And yes, you still get the +1 to Hit from Turret, so the penalty is negated. However, other modifiers may change your end result.

 alextroy wrote:
The Turret rule is an additional rule that stacks on top of the Big Guns Never Tire rule.

BGNT allows you to target an enemy unit not in Engagement Range even when the Vehicle has units within Engagement Range of it. However, you are not allowed to resolve those attacks unless your other attacks eliminate any models within Engagement Range of it. It also stipulates that the Vehicle has a -1 to Hit with Heavy weapons when enemy units are within Engagement Range of it.

Turret allows the unit to resolve attacks with said weapon when it targets a unit not in Engagement Range of itself despite the presence of enemy models within Engagement Range of itself. The still comment is a reminder that BGNT provides a -1 to Hit with Heavy weapons while an enemy unit is within Engagement Range of you regardless of the target. Note this still comment is bad since it never mentions the penalty is for Heavy weapons, probably because the designers made sure all Turret weapons have the Heavy type.

And yes, you still get the +1 to Hit from Turret, so the penalty is negated. However, other modifiers may change your end result.

100% this.

"TURRET WEAPONS" says "Note that when making such attacks, you must still subtract 1 from hit rolls due to enemy models being within Engagement Range." This note is reminding us of the rule for shooting things when enemy models are within Engagement Range, which is found in the "BIG GUNS NEVER TIRE" rules.

It is only a -1 and the Turret Weapon ability rules still add 1 so the penalty is negated.

OP, I do not understand how this is unclear. Why would you think it was a -1 to hit from turret weapon rule and a -1 to hit from big guns never tire rule. It just doesn't parse out like that.

Indeed, this one isn't a difficult one - it reminds you that you have a -1 to hit, and doesn't add on its own -1 to,hit

 DeathReaper wrote:

"TURRET WEAPONS" says "Note that when making such attacks, you must still subtract 1 from hit rolls due to enemy models being within Engagement Range." This note is reminding us of the rule for shooting things when enemy models are within Engagement Range, which is found in the "BIG GUNS NEVER TIRE" rules.

I would agree with you, if turret weapons would mention that the -1 to hit is from big guns never tire, but it doesnt say that. Its two separate rules, one is called turret weapon, and the other is called big guns never tire. Big guns never tire allows vehicles and monsters to shoot at units within engagement range, giving -1 to hit. Turret weapons goes even further, by allowing turret weapons to shoot within engagement range, at units outside of engagement range. I dont see this very clear, its an exception on top of another exception, which could result in adding another -1 to hit.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

"TURRET WEAPONS" says "Note that when making such attacks, you must still subtract 1 from hit rolls due to enemy models being within Engagement Range." This note is reminding us of the rule for shooting things when enemy models are within Engagement Range, which is found in the "BIG GUNS NEVER TIRE" rules.

I would agree with you, if turret weapons would mention that the -1 to hit is from big guns never tire, but it doesnt say that. Its two separate rules, one is called turret weapon, and the other is called big guns never tire. Big guns never tire allows vehicles and monsters to shoot at units within engagement range, giving -1 to hit. Turret weapons goes even further, by allowing turret weapons to shoot within engagement range, at units outside of engagement range. I dont see this very clear, its an exception on top of another exception, which could result in adding another -1 to hit.

But it does say that... It literally references another rule. Here is what you are not understanding. You said "Turret weapons goes even further, by allowing turret weapons to shoot" this is inaccurate as turret weapons do not need to allow those weapons to shoot as they already have permission from the BGNT rule.

Basically when it says "it can still target and resolve attacks against enemy units" that means there is a different rule that allows a unit to target and resolve attacks against enemy units, and this rule does not interfere with that.

"Note that when making such attacks, you must still subtract 1 from hit rolls due to enemy models being within Engagement Range." Is not a rule in and of itself, it is just a reminder of other rules that are in place.

It says "you must still subtract 1" this is referencing another rule and not a standalone rule. This is just how English works. Anytime you say "you must still", it is referencing something else.

Basically you need to take all rules into account. You should not ignore rules. It is clear if you do not ignore rules.