Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'd like to work on a Renegades and Heretics Codex, but one that isn't complete and utter garbage like the current rules for them are.
Pertaining to that, does anyone have access to and be willing to share what used to be cool about them? Preferably with details, not just broad strokes.

Edit: I'm working on it now, on a Google Doc. Old Version

Current Version: Renegades And Heretics

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with, JNA. Not really a R&H player (I use imperial rules to represent AL cultists), but happy to nitpick your hard work all the same!

From what I recall, the cool thing about the 7th edition R&H rules was that it let you customize the army to fit your fluff in pretty dramatic and widespread ways. Basically, it gave you a version of chapter tactics before chapter tactics were all the rage. So with that in mind, I have kind of mixed feelings about sticking to the Devotion/Doctrine scheme. R&H seem like they should be one of the most diverse factions in the game, but picking one of several devotions and one of several doctrines seems like it makes your subfaction combinations relatively limited and predictable. Plus, I don't love reducing each god down to a single trait as it makes all the R&H armies of a given chaos god feel sort of same-y. Do the followers of nurgle always have to be covered in flies instead of having a poisonous touch or infectious ammo or whatever? But maybe that's just a me thing.

Devotion-Slaanesh
-Add one to Advance and Charge rolls made for a unit with this devotion.
-A unit with this devotion ignores the -1 hit penalty for Advancing and firing Assault weapons.

Do R&H have many units that would really benefit from this? I'm strugglign to think of many assault weapons they traditionally have access to that aren't also flamers (and thus don't suffer the to-hit penalty in the first place). And most spikey guardsmen don't necessarily want to be charging forward.

Devotion-Khorne
-Add one to the Strength characteristic of any unit with this devotion.
-Add one to the Attacks characteristic of any unit with this devotion on the turn they are charged, charge, or Heroically Intervene.

Classically Khorne-y, but not sure how useful this would be Again, I'm mostly picturing guard-esque statlines, and 2 attacks at S3 AP- aren't much better than 1 such attack. Obviously it could combo well with units that have more attacks (evil ogryn and beast men?), but then it feels like it's not really helping out most of your army unless you're doing a fairly specific build.

Devotion-Tzeentch
-Once per round, the first time a saving throw is failed for a unit with this devotion, the Damage characteristic of that attack is changed to 0.
-All units with this devotion gain the following action:
Warpsight (Action): Any number of units can perform this action at the start of your movement phase. This action completes at the end of the next psychic phase, and allows the unit that completed this action to ignore any or all modifiers to their Ballistic Skill and shooting attack hit rolls.

I worry that this could fall into the category of being scary good for some units and mostly useless for others. The other places I recall seeing rules like this are on fairly unintimidating infantry units like wracks (whose potentially T5 toughness, invuln save, and FNP make them just durable enough for the benefit to still be helpful). For evil guard, this seems like it would be pretty inconsequential for T3 W1 mortals (because they'll probably be taking a bunch of small arms fire), but could be frustratingly good on something like a chaos russ where you only have so many weapons that can reliably wound it each turn.

Devotion-Undivided
-Add 3” to the range of all Aura abilities a unit with this devotion has.
-All units with this devotion gain the following ability:
Daemonic Terror (Aura):While an enemy unit is within 6" of this unit, subtract 1 from that enemy unit’s Leadership characteristic and subtract 1 from any Combat Attrition tests taken for that enemy unit. (Note that this does benefit from the range increase from the first part of this devotion.)

The -1 to combat attrition can be pretty potent, but it relies on you getting into basically melee range for it to kick in. I guess this one could work out if you're charging your tanks into the enemy. I don't hate that. Kind of reminds me of ye olde tank shocke.

Doctrine-Fanatics
-A unit with this doctrine adds 5 to their Leadership characteristic
-A unit with this doctrine may reroll any hit rolls they make in the fight phase in a turn in which they were charged, charged, or Heroically Intervened.

Wondering if the intent is to have that +5 only apply for morale tests. Seems a bit odd that this would make a unit really hard to, for instance, Mind War.

Doctrine-Guerilla
-A unit with this doctrine gains the benefit of Light Cover against any attack made from more than 12” away. If any model in the unit has a wounds characteristic of 10 or more, change that to 18”. If the unit would already have Light Cover, they instead gain Dense Cover.
-INFANTRY with this doctrine gain +1 to-hit with all shooting attacks made if they arrived in the Reinforcements step of the preceding movement phase.

So Nurgle Guerillas would be -2 to hit at a distance. Not sure if I like that you can potentially get a -2 to counter the first +1 your opponent has, or if it would just feel like a bad combo because one of your traits wouldn't be doing anything most of the time.

Very much like the +1 to hit on the turn a unit arrives. Maybe it would be too annoying for R&H, but I kind of like the idea of letting them Battle Focus. SHoot and scoot is very "guerilla", and it would give them something active to do on turns they don't arrive from reserves.

Doctrine-Mutated Soldiers
-A unit with this doctrine in the first turn or that did not move in their controlling player’s last movement phase rolls a die each time they would lose a wound. On a 6+, that wound is not lost.
-Non-VEHICLE units with this doctrine may, during your command phase, roll a d6 and suffer that many Mortal Wounds. Then, apply the following effects based on the roll until the start of your next command phase:
1-2: +1 Strength
3-4: +2” Movement
5: +1 Toughness
6: Advance and Charge
Note that results are cumulative, so on a 6, the unit suffers six Mortal Wounds and gains +1 Strength, +2” Movement, +1 Toughness, and can Advance and Charge.

I feel like a lot of people would love this for the double-edged randomness. Personally, this just doesn't feel representative of how I picture most mutants (unless they're like, actively mutating chaos spawn or possessed.) I picture mutants whose mutations are relatively stable rather than changing on the spot, and I picture chaos commanders dividing up their mutants into groups based on their capabilities. So all the guys with super strength and claws go into group A, all the guys with wings and super jumps go into group B, etc. What I'd expect from a mutant-themed army would be the option to take one of several mutations as wargear during list creation. This could also be a good way to represent abhumans/beast folk.

If I were using what you have so far to represent my AL cultists, I'd probably go Guerilla/Undivided. Guerilla seems like a perfect fit. Undivided is a bit iffy as I don't picture my dudes as being especially spooky up close.

I'm thinking of basing it on the Guard Codex, but with some tweaks. So think from that base.

I see no comment on the Nurgle Devotion-was that missed, or just seems totally fine?
Tzeentch, I hear you. Open to suggestions on what'd be something better to replace the 0 Damage ability with.

+5 Leadership is always on. It's a hefty bonus... But look, what the hell is Leadership even used for? And I'm okay with making them hard to Mind War-their soul is pure (evil) and their minds clear.
Nurgle Guerillas are only -2 to-hit if they're already benefiting from Light Cover. Otherwise, they're -1 to-hit, +1 to-save.
And maybe let them shoot then move, but NOT move-shoot-move? Basically, swap phases a bit.

Overall, I'd like to make at least a few more Doctrines, I'm just struggling to think of what.
And yeah, I definitely think a mutations upgrade ability would be in the cards for a lot of units.

What's the design goals? Why do you want to have army-wide bonuses like this?

Change Mutated Soldiers to

1+: +1 Strength
3+: +2” Movement
5+: +1 Toughness
6+: Advance and Charge

If it was GW then a 1 wouldn't do anything, I'm noting this because making it look official might be one of your design goals. I never played with them and only played against them once or twice so I don't have much to add in terms of what I think is cool.

Mutated is gonna get either dumped or rewritten, I think.
Just when I get some time.

 JNAProductions wrote:

I see no comment on the Nurgle Devotion-was that missed, or just seems totally fine?

Seemed totally fine. The only thing that came to mind was that it was sort of redundant with Guerillas, but it's a perfectly fine, pretty standard subfaction bonus.

Tzeentch, I hear you. Open to suggestions on what'd be something better to replace the 0 Damage ability with.

Well, for a defensive bonus, there's always the good old invulnerable save. But honestly, I'd be tempted to have a few different options to choose from for each god (and undivided) so that people can mix up their build and represent different aspects of the gods. Off the top of my head:

NURGLE
* The cloud of flies style bonus you have right now.
* Infectious: All infantry gain a sickly touch weapon (poison 4+, AP0, D1). Vehicles can choose to explode on a 4+ instead of a 6+.
* Walking Dead: Infantry units regain 1d3 lost models in your command phase as the slain rise to fight again. Vehicles count as having double their wounds for damage bracket purposes.

TZEENTCH
* Army-wide sisters style Deny the Witch. Maybe a wyrdboy-style bonus to psychic tests for psykers. Maybe give non-psyker HQs the option to become psykers for X points. They're covered in arcane tattoos and magical wards.
* Blessed mutations. Give squad leaders bonus attacks with a modest profile. (S4 AP-1 D1?). GIve vehicles a more gnarly version of the profile.
* Sinister Glyphs. Infantry can perform an action in the command phase to enscribe runes on an objective. For the rest of the game, friendly units gain a 5+ invuln while on the objective, and enemy units treat the objective as dangerous terrain.

SLAANESH
* Perfect Coordination: Gain something akin to the GSC crossfire rules and/or the ability to disembark after a transport moves. Represents the extremely practiced and polished combat drills your army practices.
* Embrace the Pain: Army-wide feel no pain or Toughness boost. Probably a bonus to morale/combat attrition. Probably doesn't make sense for vehicles.

KHORNE
* Khorne Cares Not: +1 on to-hit rolls for units below starting strength. Vehicles may fire blast weapons at units they're in melee with but suffer d3 mortal wounds after doing so.
* Suppress and Slaughter: +1 Attacks army-wide. Enemy units that suffer at last 1 casualty from units with this rule may not overwatch.
* Kratocracy: All characters have +1 Weapons Skill, +2 Attacks, and +1 Wounds. Your leaders are the guys who can beat down their rivals in the arena.

UNDIVIDED
* Madness and Nightmares: The one you've got. Fits the standard creepy-looking guys that have spent a little too much time in spooky places.
* Desperation and Spite: Gain obsec. Units with obsec count as twice the models instead. Units with this rule may fight a second time at the end of the fight phase, but units that do so automatically fail their morale test in the Morale phase. (Representing them throwing themselves into the grinder but taking more casualties as a result. Might be a better Khorne one?) These are your half-starved, friendless traitors doing whatever it takes to refill their larders and armories.
* Freshly Fallen: These guys haven't been renegades for very long. They cling tightly to the unraveling remains of their old command structure. Some sort of bonus to orders or whatever order-like mechanic you give them.

+5 Leadership is always on. It's a hefty bonus... But look, what the hell is Leadership even used for? And I'm okay with making them hard to Mind War-their soul is pure (evil) and their minds clear.

Fair enough! I just wasn't sure if it was intentional given that Farseers don't seem to have any particular trouble mind crushing daemons, chaos marines, etc.

And maybe let them shoot then move, but NOT move-shoot-move? Basically, swap phases a bit.

I like that quite a bit. So you get a bonus when you spring your trap and come in from reserves, and you're good at fighting retreats against enemies chasing you.

Overall, I'd like to make at least a few more Doctrines, I'm just struggling to think of what.

Again, off the top of my head:
* Heretechs: Salamander style to-hit or to-wound reroll each time a unit shoots, and maybe a 6+ invulnerable save to represent bionics.
* Warp worshippers: Let units replace their squad leaders with low-level daemons. (A daemonette, a plaguebearer, etc.). Let them take a limited number of daemon units.
* Warp Wraiths: The army is literally made up of ghosts that aren't entirely present in reality. Let them auto-advance 6" and pass through terrain when they do so. (Basically the Nephrekh dynasty rule.) Army-wide invulnerable save due to being incorporeal.
* Beastmen and Mutants: Every infantry unit can choose from a list of mutations, either free or purchasable with points.

Mark II of the project. More details.

Much credit to Wyldhunt!

You're too kind, JNA. Some things that jumped out at me:

Infectious-All models with this devotion may select one melee weapon they are armed with, and it gains the ability to always wound a non-VEHICLE non-TITANIC model on a 4+. If a model has no statted melee weapons, they may apply it to the basic Close Combat Attack profile.

Any particular reason to only have it apply to a single weapon? Seems like you could cut down on bookkeeping by just having it apply to all non-relic melee weapons or by just saying they have an "infectious touch" attack that is S: User, D1, AP0, Poison 4+. Also, probably ought to specify that it doesn't apply to relics (unless you want it to).

The Dead Rise-In each of your command phases, you may roll 1d3 for each unit with this devotion, and restore that many lost wounds to the unit. If there are no wounded models, you may instead restore a model to life with one wound remaining.
Example One: A unit with each model having a wounds characteristic of 2 and a starting strength of five models has lost one model and one model is down to one wound remaining. You roll a 3 on the d3, restoring the injured model to full health, and returning the lost model to life with two wounds.
Example Two: A unit with each model having a wounds characteristic of 1 and a starting strength of ten models has lost four models. You roll a 2 on the d3, and restore two models to life (as each had one wound).

It's clear enough when you read both examples, but I feel like there's probably a streamlined way of saying all that.

Rapid Assault-Add one to Advance and Charge rolls made for a unit with this devotion, and that unit ignores the penalty for Advancing and firing Assault weapons.

I'm still not sure there are actually enough non-flamer assault weapons in a guard-like army to make this option appealing. Maybe let them treat rapid fire weapons as assault or give them Tallarn style "count as having remained stationary" rules?

Khorne Cares Not-A unit with this devotion gains +1 to-hit when declaring attacks against a unit that is below Starting Strength.

Interesting that you made it trigger when shooting *enemies* below starting strength. I actually intended for it to kick in when your own unit was below starting strength (like Children of the Morai-Heg) to reflect the idea that Khorne doesn't care whether it's you or the other guy getting murderized. I almost recommended having a version like this one for Slaanesh as a "sadistic" rule, but I was worried people would slow the game down fishing for their first wound with inefficient lasguns so that they could optimize the effectiveness of their more powerful weapons. Thoughts?

Madness And Nightmares-Add 3” to the range of all Aura abilities a unit with this devotion has and all units with this devotion gain the following ability:
Daemonic Terror (Aura):While an enemy unit is within 6" of this unit, subtract 1 from that enemy unit’s Leadership characteristic and subtract 1 from any Combat Attrition tests taken for that enemy unit. (Note that this does benefit from the range increase from the first part of this devotion.)

As written, this would make Daemonic Terror a 9" aura. Just wanted to confirm that that's the intent.

Desperation And Spite...
In addition, a unit in Engagement range of any enemy units at the end of the fight phase may choose to Fight Again. When they do so, track damage dealt, but do not remove any models from that damage. Any unit that was targeted (regardless of if any damage was dealt) may then Fight Again, but can only target your units that chose to Fight Again. After all combat is resolved, remove models as appropriate. Finally, any unit that chooses to Fight Again automatically takes and fails a Morale test in the subsequent morale phase.

I feel like this adds too much complication/bookkeeping. Plus, this feels like it will usually be a bad trade-off for a guard-like army as most armies in the game have better melee performance than guardsmen/cultists. What was the intention behind the changes from my initial pitch? (Fight again, but suffer some mortals if you do so.)

Doctrine-Heretechs
-A unit with this doctrine may reroll one hit roll, wound roll, or damage roll when they shoot.
A unit with this doctrine gains a 6+ Invulnerable save.

-A unit with this doctrine increases the range of all shooting attacks made (except with Grenade weapons) by 6”.
Any shooting attack made by a unit with this doctrine gains +1 Strength if the original Strength of the attack was 5-7, and +2 Strength if the original Strength of the attack was 8 or higher.

That's four subfaction bonuses on a single trait, plus you'd still have your devotion on top of it. Not sure if it feels too strong, but it definitely strikes me as a bit too busy. I'd probably pick two of those four benefits. Probably the range increase and either the strength boost or the rerolls given that invuln saves are available via other traits.

[quoet]
Doctrine-Warptouched
-A unit with this doctrine can, when making an Advance, choose to Phase instead. When using Phase, the unit can move through terrain and models as if they were not there, and adds 6” to their movement instead of rolling.
A unit with this doctrine can also ignore terrain and models when using a Fall Back move.
Any unit that utilizes this ability may not shoot in the following shooting phase.

So, for Devotions and Doctrines, you get ONE ability from the category.

For Heretechs, that’s 6++ and one reroll, OR +6” of range and +Strength. Not both.

At work, so will make a better response and edits later.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Also, probably ought to specify that it doesn't apply to relics (unless you want it to).

I'm curious if you understand the reasoning behind this design choice because I never did. I think these exceptions just confuse things, I can't see any situation where an ability that excludes relics would actually be broken with a relic.

Did a few adjustments.

I made the "Fight Again" bit just straight-up remove any unit that uses it, since doubling the action economy is pretty potent.

vict0988 wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Also, probably ought to specify that it doesn't apply to relics (unless you want it to).

I'm curious if you understand the reasoning behind this design choice because I never did. I think these exceptions just confuse things, I can't see any situation where an ability that excludes relics would actually be broken with a relic.

I struggle to think of a specific combo that would be broken. I assume it's just the designers' way of reducing the variables they have to account for. If they really like the idea of a special sword that has a low strength but unusually good AP and damage, they don't have to worry about overlooking that chapter tactic you took that lets you wound all targets on a 4+, or whatever.

JNAProductions wrote:Did a few adjustments.

I made the "Fight Again" bit just straight-up remove any unit that uses it, since doubling the action economy is pretty potent.

That seems reasonable. Get a second burst of offense, but it costs you the unit, and most units in the army don't have good enough offense to make it especially abusable.