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Now many of us have been down the road of "Is Arda, Earth?", but as I steep into the prehistory of Terra and further still the cosmology of 40K, it seems as though there are a lot of loosely defined concepts which could potentially lead to a connection with a common heritage despite great differences in timeline and lore.

While the creation in the Silmarillion is well laid out as the word, creation in 40K seems have a murky manufacture with many angles (The IP) or the institutional in-verse telling by a tyrannical empire of mankind and further still it's church.

So to entertain this possibility we must look a bit past these sources of primary (The IP, the books, the games) and second-hand inverse materials (The Administratum, Librarians etc) even at the risk of being labeled heretic

For starters, when delving into the origin of the emperor I keep turning to the thought that he essentially sounds like a powerful Maiar who wanted more, wanted to be a God in his own right, not simply guiding mankind, but shaping it in his image, but ultimately lost his form upon the Golden Throne having over done it much like Sauron.

So while there's no direct link to present day with the Arda, the prehistory of Terra alone sounds incredibly grey much like the emperor, and both are linked with a common heritage that is the Earth.

Well what are your thoughts? Could this work? or are there too many loose ends to shore up?

I kinda think it would be a fun crossover imho.

*as a side note, The Eye of Horus appears a near direct rip of the Rankin&Bass depicted Eye of Sauron in the 1980 animation.

Don't be silly. Terra is clearly Hyrule, and the Old Ones were descendants of pacifist scientists who fled the tyrannical Bowser when he began his domination of the Mushroom Kingdom.

Terra is the domain of the Old Ones and the Eldar Gods. Khorne is Chthulu. Tzeentch is Nyralothep. Slaanesh is Shub Niggurash. Still figuring out who Nurgle is.......

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Terra is the domain of the Old Ones and the Eldar Gods. Khorne is Chthulu. Tzeentch is Nyralothep. Slaanesh is Shub Niggurash. Still figuring out who Nurgle is.......

While Cthulhu is technically a Great Old One, Nyarlathotep and Shub-Niggurath are Outer Gods, a completely different class of being. So powerful, in fact, that every single one of them could eat all four of Chaos losers combined for breakfast. No, seriously, check their portfolios, it includes stuff against which weaksauce concepts like 'war' or 'change' simply can't compare. Nyarlathotep, despite being equivalent of Greater Daemon of its own setting, is more powerful in the material realm than the four are inside their own Warp domains, having domain over, between others, all thoughts and workings of intelligent minds, all magic right down to the very basic mystic energies of the Universe (so, in 40K, would rule over all Warp/Enuncia/holy powers/etc, everywhere), all form and shape (being able to change it at will) and similar such minor stuff. If anything, the Chaos four would barely qualify to be on the level of its proxy lackeys and minor parts (in 40K, lesser daemons of a God), of which Nyarlathotep has an infinite host

So does anyone think Sauron and the Emperor could be cousins?

Are we talking "Tennessee cousins" or regular cousins?

Dude I've been through this a million times.

It is well established that JRR Tolkien was the most powerful psychic of early human history. His psychic visions formed the basis for some books that everyone eventually forgot about...except the Emprah, because he knows everything since cave man days.

 Irbis wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Terra is the domain of the Old Ones and the Eldar Gods. Khorne is Chthulu. Tzeentch is Nyralothep. Slaanesh is Shub Niggurash. Still figuring out who Nurgle is.......

While Cthulhu is technically a Great Old One, Nyarlathotep and Shub-Niggurath are Outer Gods, a completely different class of being. So powerful, in fact, that every single one of them could eat all four of Chaos losers combined for breakfast. No, seriously, check their portfolios, it includes stuff against which weaksauce concepts like 'war' or 'change' simply can't compare. Nyarlathotep, despite being equivalent of Greater Daemon of its own setting, is more powerful in the material realm than the four are inside their own Warp domains, having domain over, between others, all thoughts and workings of intelligent minds, all magic right down to the very basic mystic energies of the Universe (so, in 40K, would rule over all Warp/Enuncia/holy powers/etc, everywhere), all form and shape (being able to change it at will) and similar such minor stuff. If anything, the Chaos four would barely qualify to be on the level of its proxy lackeys and minor parts (in 40K, lesser daemons of a God), of which Nyarlathotep has an infinite host

Thank you for the fine explanation on the Lovecraftian Mythos, Irbis. Ummmm.....you do understand that I was just making a joke, right?

Too many loose ends. The link is basically 'powerful being wants to rule humanity'. It's... not really enough.

Also, contradictions. The origin of the emperor is nothing like a maia, and goes against Tolkien's cosmogony that Men live once, die, and disappear to a mysterious fate beyond the circles of the world.

 Vermis wrote:
Too many loose ends.

Well beside the fact Warhammer does take influence if not mere inspiration in general, true. I figured it would be a bit of stretch.

 Vermis wrote:
Also, contradictions. The origin of the emperor is nothing like a maia, and goes against Tolkien's cosmogony that Men live once, die, and disappear to a mysterious fate beyond the circles of the world.

Ok I might need to re-read the Silmarillion. What makes the BiggE different? Maia are perpetual are they not? Essentially immortal. But if we're assuming the reader's point of view, that BiggE is actually a man then he's gotten a pretty big pass as incorruptible.

If there are no Gods and the Emperor is a man then Chaos should be reduced to a mysterious bunch of extraterrestrial clowns.

But if he's not a man and here to guide us, then he's very much akin to the Maia and perhaps even a very powerful one who walked among humanity assuming many guises in the past.

Otherwise why hasn't Chaos corrupted him? I'm getting Gandalf vibes.

The most commonly quoted origin of the Emperor, published back in Rogue Trader times I think, is that shamans of earth (human shamans) would die, their souls would go into the pre-chaos warp, and after a time be reincarnated. The shamans noticed the warp becoming more chaotic, recognised the danger, and held some kind of conclave to figure out what to do about it. They decided that there should be a powerful figure to unite humanity and oppose the chaos entities, so they killed themselves and merged their souls into one super-being, who incarnated into the man who would become the emperor.

(Anyone with a better bead on this story, let me know what details I mucked up)

Humans reincarnating like they were changing suits is already enough to boot the tale out of Tolkienian(?) concepts. I'm not sure what Tolkien would have thought of different beings merging into one. I think the closest thing would be evil spirits inhabiting the dragon bodies that Melkor constructed, which would have been soulless anyway. I'd hazard he'd consider souls combining to be something of an abomination. He was kind of strict about things of lesser magnitude than that.

Anyway, emperor = human. A very powerful gestalt human, like constructicons making up a fleshy Devastator, but human.

Well beside the fact Warhammer does take influence if not mere inspiration in general, true.

I think the influence of Tolkien on Warhammer might be a bit overstated. There's haughty, declining elves; gruff, secretive dwarves; and vicious, swarming orcs battling over wide plains and towering mountain ranges, some treemen and hobbits tucked into odd corners, and... that's about it.
Warhammer also owes huge scads to Michael Moorcock, for ripping off the entire concept of Chaos, including the eight-pointed Chaos star, for one. Demon weapons too. Also, a proud arrogant race, masters of magic, once all but ruled the world but now in decline, retreating to their island kingdom where their sleeping dragon mounts are increasingly difficult to wake? Are we talking high elves, or Melnibonéans?
Then there's Fritz Leiber (an empire of intelligent rats beneath human cities, ruled by a caste of white rats who form a council of thirteen), HP Lovecraft (Old Ones, insane cosmic entities), Robert A Howard (coughcough), and who knows how many others.

If there are no Gods and the Emperor is a man then Chaos should be reduced to a mysterious bunch of extraterrestrial clowns.

Sucks, don't it?

But that's kind of what the chaos gods always were. They're vast accumulations of the psychic residue of negative emotions and reactions - rage, scheming, despair, hedonism - that have poured into the warp for millenia.

I mean, I thought this was common knowledge in GW fluff.

 Vermis wrote:
The most commonly quoted origin of the Emperor, published back in Rogue Trader times I think, is that shamans of earth (human shamans) would die, their souls would go into the pre-chaos warp, and after a time be reincarnated. The shamans noticed the warp becoming more chaotic, recognised the danger, and held some kind of conclave to figure out what to do about it. They decided that there should be a powerful figure to unite humanity and oppose the chaos entities, so they killed themselves and merged their souls into one super-being, who incarnated into the man who would become the emperor.

(Anyone with a better bead on this story, let me know what details I mucked up)

Humans reincarnating like they were changing suits is already enough to boot the tale out of Tolkienian(?) concepts. I'm not sure what Tolkien would have thought of different beings merging into one. I think the closest thing would be evil spirits inhabiting the dragon bodies that Melkor constructed, which would have been soulless anyway. I'd hazard he'd consider souls combining to be something of an abomination. He was kind of strict about things of lesser magnitude than that.

Anyway, emperor = human. A very powerful gestalt human, like constructicons making up a fleshy Devastator, but human.

Well beside the fact Warhammer does take influence if not mere inspiration in general, true.

I think the influence of Tolkien on Warhammer might be a bit overstated. There's haughty, declining elves; gruff, secretive dwarves; and vicious, swarming orcs battling over wide plains and towering mountain ranges, some treemen and hobbits tucked into odd corners, and... that's about it.
Warhammer also owes huge scads to Michael Moorcock, for ripping off the entire concept of Chaos, including the eight-pointed Chaos star, for one. Demon weapons too. Also, a proud arrogant race, masters of magic, once all but ruled the world but now in decline, retreating to their island kingdom where their sleeping dragon mounts are increasingly difficult to wake? Are we talking high elves, or Melnibonéans?
Then there's Fritz Leiber (an empire of intelligent rats beneath human cities, ruled by a caste of white rats who form a council of thirteen), HP Lovecraft (Old Ones, insane cosmic entities), Robert A Howard (coughcough), and who knows how many others.

If there are no Gods and the Emperor is a man then Chaos should be reduced to a mysterious bunch of extraterrestrial clowns.

Sucks, don't it?

But that's kind of what the chaos gods always were. They're vast accumulations of the psychic residue of negative emotions and reactions - rage, scheming, despair, hedonism - that have poured into the warp for millenia.

I mean, I thought this was common knowledge in GW fluff.

Appreciate the illuminations, yes that sounds right about Chaos, but sorting out the fluff/speculation vs in-verse canon and IP materials things tend to get muddied up for me sometimes.

I think the Tolkien influence is pretty much inspirational only, I mean any modern fantasy with orc(k)s, dwarves, and elves that aren't Keeblers pretty much harkens back to him wouldn't you say? Unless you want to bring McDonald and Lord Dunsany into the mix.

Though HP is probably much more well known as influence. I never got into the novels, however I do hear small bells as I pour over lore commentary having read some of Clark Ashton Smith who worked on a mythology with HP. Perhaps even a touch of Robert E. Howard.

Although I don't see too much mentionings of either here (my limited time on dakka?) HP appears to get more credit.

When I think about it, what hasn't influenced 40k to some degree?

Well everyone it was fun while it lasted, thanks for the jokes, and the input.

Better luck on my next cross mythos examinations...