How many relics in an "open game"

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**Matt85**

Just noticed that Battlescribe doesn't limit you on relics for "open" game type. I've been out of the game for a little while and appear to have missed some major changes.

For a basic 500pt game, is there a limit to how many relics you can bring? IE: I have a Warlord and an elite character who are both eligible to carry relics, can these both carry a free relic?

Thank you
-Matt

**Asmodai**

It'll depend on the mission pack you're using.

For the the Only War open mission in the main rulebook, there's only a single Warlord with a Warlord trait but no relics, and since there's no Command Points, there would be no way to use a strategem to give a relic to a character later.

Given the spirit and intent of open, it's whatever you and your opponent agree to though.

**alextroy**

Relics are limited by Command Points and the Stratagems that allow you to take more than the one given by your army's Warlord, per the respective Codex. The type of game doesn't matter, although the Mission Pack may alter the rules. For example, the Nephilim and Arks of Omen Mission Packs remove the free relic (and warlord trait) and require you to buy it using a special Stratagem provided i the Mission Pack.

As always, Battlescribe is not the best source for the rules.

**JohnnyHell**

Open Play is very much “what do you and your opponent consider fun?” So agree between you.

**JNAProductions**

Matt85 wrote:
Just noticed that Battlescribe doesn't limit you on relics for "open" game type. I've been out of the game for a little while and appear to have missed some major changes.

For a basic 500pt game, is there a limit to how many relics you can bring? IE: I have a Warlord and an elite named character who are both eligible to carry relics, can these both carry a free relic?

Thank you
-Matt

Generally speaking, the rules are as such:

You get a Warlord for free, their trait for free (or 1 CP starting with the last season of Tournament Play), and then you get one free (1 CP) Relic from that faction to give to ANY eligible model.
Then, 9th Edition Codecs basically all have a "Get an extra Relic" Strat for 1 CP. In a 500 Point game, you can use these Strats only once.

So, assuming you aren't playing recent tournament rules, you get:

Warlord for free, with a trait
First Relic for free
Second Relic for 1 CP

**JohnnyHell**

Open Play doesn’t use CP by default. It of course can if both players want to. See my previous post.

**BomBomHotdog**

The whole 1CP for WLT and Relics is specifically for Tournament/GT play and was implemented only recently. IF you are playing Open/Narrative play then you can have 1 WLT and 1 Relic for free. Most factions have a Stratagem that lets you give out another at the cost of 1 CP.

End of the day its your game. Discuss with your friends and do what you want.

**alextroy**

JohnnyHell wrote:
Open Play doesn’t use CP by default. It of course can if both players want to. See my previous post.

This is incorrect. Battle-Forged Armies are part of the Core Rules as are Command Points. They are not Way-to-Play dependent. However, you are not required to play Battle-Forged Armies as part of Open Play as opposed to Crusade and most (if not all) Matched Play Mission Packs.

**p5freak**

alextroy wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
Open Play doesn’t use CP by default. It of course can if both players want to. See my previous post.
This is incorrect. Battle-Forged Armies are part of the Core Rules as are Command Points. They are not Way-to-Play dependent. However, you are not required to play Battle-Forged Armies as part of Open Play as opposed to Crusade and most (if not all) Matched Play Mission Packs.

This is incorrect. Only battleforged armies gain CP. As open play doesnt require a battleforged army you dont get any CP by default. You can however choose to play with CP without a battleforged army, called an unbound army.

BATTLE-FORGED ARMIES
Some missions will tell you to muster a Battle-forged army. A Battle-forged army has a pool of strategic resources called Command points (CPs) with which to purchase one or more Detachments, into which every unit in that army must be organised. Any CPs that a Battle-forged army has remaining after purchasing Detachments can be spent to utilise Stratagems - each of which represents a strategic or tactical asset available to your army. You will also receive a Battle-forged CP bonus in each of your Command phases. An army that is not Battle-forged is known as an Unbound army.

USING STRATAGEMS WITH UNBOUND ARMIES
Battle-forging your army is the easiest way to gain CPs with which to utilise Stratagems, but if your army is Unbound it is still possible to gain CPs by some other means (such as via a mission rule) that can then be spent during the battle to utilise Stratagems in exactly the same way as a player commanding a Battle-forged army would.

Alternatively, if both players have Unbound armies, but they both still wish to incorporate Stratagems into their game when they are mustering their army, then we recommend they agree beforehand on how many CPs each player will start with.

**JohnnyHell**

alextroy wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
Open Play doesn’t use CP by default. It of course can if both players want to. See my previous post.
This is incorrect. Battle-Forged Armies are part of the Core Rules as are Command Points. They are not Way-to-Play dependent. However, you are not required to play Battle-Forged Armies as part of Open Play as opposed to Crusade and most (if not all) Matched Play Mission Packs.

My post was not incorrect. You’re not reading correctly.

**alextroy**

You’re going to need to explain how CP and Battleforged armies being part of the Core Rules makes them not a default part of Open Play.

**p5freak**

alextroy wrote:
You’re going to need to explain how CP and Battleforged armies being part of the Core Rules makes them not a default part of Open Play.

Read the rules for open play, muster armies. Compare that to matched play, muster armies.

**skeleton**

You cant give named character a relic or a warlord trait. They have there own warlord traits and special/named weapons.

**Matt85**

Thanks all!

I sort of figured this might be a mistake on the part of Battle Scribe. I was fairly sure it was 1 WT and 1 relic, then pay CP for additional relics. But, I've been out of the game so long that I wanted to run it by other people.

skeleton wrote:
You cant give named character a relic or a warlord trait. They have there own warlord traits and special/named weapons.

You are correct, that was a mistake in my post. I meant standard elite characters; in this case I'm referring to a Tallyman.

**alextroy**

p5freak wrote:
alextroy wrote:
You’re going to need to explain how CP and Battleforged armies being part of the Core Rules makes them not a default part of Open Play.

Read the rules for open play, muster armies. Compare that to matched play, muster armies.

Read them. Tell me where the rules for Open Play do not allow Battle-forged Armies?

**p5freak**

alextroy wrote:
p5freak wrote:
alextroy wrote:
You’re going to need to explain how CP and Battleforged armies being part of the Core Rules makes them not a default part of Open Play.

Read the rules for open play, muster armies. Compare that to matched play, muster armies.
Read them. Tell me where the rules for Open Play do not allow Battle-forged Armies?

I never said that open play do not allow battle forged armies. Johnny said open play doesn’t use CP by default, you said thats incorrect. The rules for open play do not require a battleforged army, so thats the default for open play (no battleforged army no CP). You can choose to play with battleforged armies in open play, or you can choose to use CP with an unbound (not battleforged) army.

**nosferatu1001**

P5 that's not right. The rules for open play fo still use CP by default. There is no "turn cp on" decision to make in open play. However unless your army is battleforged, you won't have any cp to use. But that is different from having cp but not being allowed to use them, which is how your statement reads.

**p5freak**

I can do whatever I want in open play. If I choose to play 10 SM captains then that's my army. It is unbound because not every unit is in a detachment, which isn't mandatory in open play. My army is unbound I get no CP.

1. MUSTER ARMIES
You and your opponent must first each muster an army from the miniatures in your collection. Your armies can be as big as you like, and you can use as many models from your collection as you wish.

**alextroy**

Correct, but that has no bearing on the other player in the game. They can bring a Battle-forged army and they get CP. You would have no grounds to say, "we are playing Open Play so there are no Battle-forged armies or CP" if they do so.

**p5freak**

Sure he can bring a battleforged army, but the default for open play is an unbound army, and those dont get CP. Bringing a battleforged army is optional.

**JohnnyHell**

alextroy wrote:
Correct, but that has no bearing on the other player in the game. They can bring a Battle-forged army and they get CP. You would have no grounds to say, "we are playing Open Play so there are no Battle-forged armies or CP" if they do so.

You are literally missing the point of Open Play. Players discuss what type of game they want. You will never get the hypothetical situation you posit. It just wouldn’t ever happen. Snap out of the Dakka WAAC mindset!

**alextroy**

I don't disagree that you and your opponent shouldn't play what you enjoy via a conversation. That doesn't prevent me from also saying that Battle-forged armies and Command Points are part of the default setting for the Open Play way-to-play as are all other aspects of the Core Rules.

Is this the point where I ask you to:

JohnnyHell wrote:
Snap out of the Dakka WAAC mindset!

**JohnnyHell**

Depends what Core Rules you’re using - show me CP rules in the free PDF?

(Also everything posted is the exact opposite of WAAC so your quote back is weird)

**alextroy**

My Warhammer 40K Rulebook The Rules from page 192 to 271. It lacks anything it call Core Rules although there are Basic Rules from pages 196 to 233.

As for Command Points in the free PDF, I will refer you to the Command Phase section of the PDF where it states:

If your army is Battle-forged, then at the start of your Command phase, before doing anything else, you gain 1 Command point (CP). This is called the Battle-forged CP bonus. You can find out more about Battle-forged armies and Command points in the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book.

So either way you look at it, Command Points are part of the Core Rules.

As for may calling you WAAC, in jest, I find it equally perplexing that anything I have stated in this thread is WAAC. So maybe we shouldn't call either other names

**p5freak**

JohnnyHell wrote:
alextroy wrote:
Correct, but that has no bearing on the other player in the game. They can bring a Battle-forged army and they get CP. You would have no grounds to say, "we are playing Open Play so there are no Battle-forged armies or CP" if they do so.

You are literally missing the point of Open Play. Players discuss what type of game they want. You will never get the hypothetical situation you posit. It just wouldn’t ever happen. Snap out of the Dakka WAAC mindset!

Open play is not about balance, the rules itself say that.

In open play anything goes, whether it be deploying your armies without worrying about points of power, inventing your own missions, playing highly themed and entirely unbalanced games, or anything else that you think will prove enjoyable.

Anything goes. And if someone wants to play a highly competitive tournament list against an unbound army its possible. Still, the default for open play is an unbound army, without CP. Because the rules for open play say you muster an army from miniatures you have, no need to have detachments.

**JohnnyHell**

It’s possible but unlikely to ever happen. No one shows up to Open Play with the intent of power gaming a win. That is what I was refuting. Just wouldn’t be a situation.

**skchsan**

JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s possible but unlikely to ever happen. No one shows up to Open Play with the intent of power gaming a win. That is what I was refuting. Just wouldn’t be a situation.

Alextroy is only calling you out on your "all rectangles are square" fallacy.

CP is something that's tied to how your army is built, not what kind of game type you're playing.

Thus, claim that open play does not utilize CP by default is fallacious. Nothing in the rule says you cant use BF army for open plays - it simply does not require you to.

**JohnnyHell**

skchsan wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s possible but unlikely to ever happen. No one shows up to Open Play with the intent of power gaming a win. That is what I was refuting. Just wouldn’t be a situation.
Alextroy is only calling you out on your "all rectangles are square" fallacy.

CP is something that's tied to how your army is built, not what kind of game type you're playing.

Thus, claim that open play does not utilize CP by default is fallacious. Nothing in the rule says you cant use BF army for open plays - it simply does not require you to.

Good grief you’re all gonna die on this molehill aren’t you? Love this sub forum.