Hobgoblin - Rank & Flank Fantasy game from the creator of Gaslands

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**insaniak**

Spotted on Kickstarter, funded in 12 hours, with (as of right now) another 25 days to go:

Mike Hutchinson's Hobgoblin is a fast-paced and thrilling rank and flank tabletop miniatures wargame set in the fantastical underground world of The Rotvärlden. With simple and adaptable rules, players can collect and field any fantasy army they can imagine and engage in brutal battles that last under two hours.

The game features original artwork from graphic artist CROM and encourages players to let their wild imaginations run free as they battle alongside cavern fortresses and underground oceans. Whether you're a seasoned player of fantasy army wargames or new to the genre, Hobgoblin offers a fresh and exciting take on the fantasy mass battle experience.

Henry Cavill does not yet play Hobgoblin, but we all do over on the Hobgoblin discord and Facebook pages.

More than seven years in development Hobgoblin is the slickest fantasy battle game yet. Every design decision seeks to provide a brutally fast game that allows you to scale up games to truly massive battles without exponentially increasing the game-time, or the brain-space, needed to play.

The core ingredients that make up Hobgoblin’s unique gameplay are:

- Rock-paper-scissors relationship of unit types, meaning no unit is ever master of the battlefield, and every sort of miniature can have a role to play in your army
- Simple and consistent stats and combat rules, making battles super-fast to resolve
- Magic, Cursed Artefacts and Fortune Cards provide a huge range of possible strategies and tricks to explore.
- Every design decision in the game pushes towards brutal efficiency and smooth, quick gameplay

Hobgoblin provides an intuitive system for you to build your own unique factions and army lists, meaning that whatever models you choose to build and paint, you can build your army’s rules to match your playstyle (or even mix up your playstyle without having to buy a whole new army).

Play game designer and craft your own units and army:

- Create units that fit your playstyle
- Add strengths and weaknesses to create the army you want
- Utilize 30+ keywords to create unique units
- Draw from 9 unique spell books

More on the Kickstarter page, including some information on the setting, which sounds pretty cool.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/electi-studio/mike-hutchinsons-hobgoblin/description

**lord_blackfang**

I was on the beta discord, could sum it up as "Kings of War with gotcha cards"

It's slick. The main thing is the "damage table". The idea is like the classic GW Weapon Skill comparison table, but you compare attacker's and defender's unit type, of which there are about 10. So, like, Infantry hits Cavalry on 5+, Cavalry hits Warmachines on 2+, that sort of thing, and it's non symmetrical.

But I really didn't like the gotcha cards. The core system gives a great framework for proper strategizing and then an "actually I win combat" card can make it all meaningless.

**insaniak**

It also appears to include the part of KoW I dislike the most, with no model removal as the unit takes damage. Marking unit damage with a die instead of just removing models is weird.

**lord_blackfang**

I actually love that. It's super convenient in the purely physical sense of transportation and deployment, and it's a perfectly reasonable abstraction where units actually represent blocks of hundreds of men and their overall morale is more important than individual casualties. But it does mean that "Bolster Courage" and "Resurrect" are mechanically the same effect.

**Gallahad**

Looks like it would work with ASOIAF size unit trays, which would be nice.

But it seems a bit too abstract for my enjoyment. Bundling up armor rating and weapons skill into light, medium, heavy ratings for example.

I'll likely just stick with ASOIAF, but big kudos for the cool looking artwork and setting!

**kodos**

insaniak wrote:
It also appears to include the part of KoW I dislike the most, with no model removal as the unit takes damage. Marking unit damage with a die instead of just removing models is weird.

that is pretty much standard for Rank&File games, it is the model removal ones that are weird and outstanding

**stonehorse**

I like that characters can join units, one of the many things I dislike about KoW.

It seems (from the two videos) that the game has capped dice at 10 for melee, and 5 for ranged, and equipment is over looked in favour of unit battlefield role.

Those two things remind me of Dragon/Lion Rampant. Caped dice and not bogged down in wargear detail.

While it isn't strictly IGOUGO or Alternative Activations, it seems to be trying to take the best of both approaches.

I do like how it handles panic spreading (would be interesting to know if a unit that receives doom from a friendly unit breaking can make it break), and being flanked.

I hope the 'Gotcha cards' are played on your turn and not on your opponent’s turn, as that really kills a lot of enjoyment in a game (ASOIAF!)

Might have to invest in a copy.

**AegisGrimm**

It definitely sounds interesting, although the digital-only reward level seems expensive.

I have been looking for an approachable Rank n' Flank game to introduce to my son, who at 8 is just getting old enough for miniatures games. At the moment I have settled on Kings of War, but this might actually be a bit easier because in Hobgoblin there isn't the bewildering range of unit stats for me to try to get him to deal with. The set values for ranged and melee combat, with just a sort of "Universal Resolution Chart" would be much easier for him to tackle.

Interesting that there is no defense rolls, though. Just straight-up damage, automatically adding "Doom" tokens (aka wounds).

I personally love games with no model removal. Units having just a set footprint lets you go hog wild with your imagination. It also would let me and my son keep something going which has been a big hit in my house: Using Lego minifigures as wargaming miniatures. Set unit footprints like Hobgoblin and Kings of War lets me do things like this:

**Strg Alt**

insaniak wrote:
It also appears to include the part of KoW I dislike the most, with no model removal as the unit takes damage. Marking unit damage with a die instead of just removing models is weird.

Gaslands is a terrific game therefore I have high hopes for this one. Have to look on youtube, if the devs have done already test games.

**stonehorse**

AegisGrimm wrote:
It definitely sounds interesting, although the digital-only reward level seems expensive.

I have been looking for an approachable Rank n' Flank game to introduce to my son, who at 8 is just getting old enough for miniatures games. At the moment I have settled on Kings of War, but this might actually be a bit easier because in Hobgoblin there isn't the bewildering range of unit stats for me to try to get him to deal with. The set values for ranged and melee combat, with just a sort of "Universal Resolution Chart" would be much easier for him to tackle.

Interesting that there is no defense rolls, though. Just straight-up damage, automatically adding "Doom" tokens (aka wounds).

I personally love games with no model removal. Units having just a set footprint lets you go hog wild with your imagination. It also would let me and my son keep something going which has been a big hit in my house: Using Lego minifigures as wargaming miniatures. Set unit footprints like Hobgoblin and Kings of War lets me do things like this:

Check out Age of Fantasy Regiments by One Page Rules, simple, fast, and free. Perfect to get young kids into the hobby.

Also, those Lego Uruk Hai look great, didn't know Lego did LotR sets?

**AegisGrimm**

I thought about using One Page Regiments, as I already have a great time with all the other One Page Rules in the house (including their older, even simpler game Warstuff which I introduced wargaming to my son a year ago with), but it's too hard to use with the Lego figures I am using to game with him. Not only does it work best with individual casualty removal, it's really needs actual ranks of figures because of having only the front two ranks being able to fight, both things which are made a lot more complicated to track with multibasing.

Originally my Lego minifigure collection and basing system has been geared towards using the Kings of War ruleset, because the "Troop" bases holding each collection of x3 figures in the pic above can easily be attached together side-by-side to make Regiments, Hordes, etc. A blank 2x2 tile on the back functions as a great dry-erase spot for tracking morale.

But right now I am playing games with my 8-year old son, and there's a few too many stats and army unit variations to track in Kings of War for him right now.

Looking at Hobgoblin, though, it looks like with the full rules I will still be able to keep the base-to-base attachment method to make larger units, and the dry-erase spot can track Doom Tokens instead of Morale. And the simplification of only using a single To-Hit roll (no To-Wound), Melee being a standard across-the-board 10D6 roll, Ranged being a similar 5D6 roll, and units having 10 Courage as a base instead of the differing disordered/rout values from Kings of War will make it easier for him to keep track of numbers he needs to deal with. Same with the To-Hit chart.

**Ian Sturrock**

Does anyone know how well it would work with KoW multibases, if at all?

**AegisGrimm**

Right now it seems the standard unit size in Hobgoblin would be the same as a multibased Troop/Regiment in Kings of War.

So far in the quick start rules, this is the only way that units are defined (quoted from the QSR, I have added simple unit examples in parenthesis for clarity):

"In Hobgoblin, a unit is a rectangle with a front edge, two sides and a rear. Units with a Wide Footprint (Infantry, Cavalry) must have a front edge that is 100-200mm wide, the front edge for those with a Narrow Footprint (Monsters, Chariots, War Machines) must be 40-100mm wide. A unit’s side edges must be 40-150mm long."

Now it seems there's some discussion on the Discord that makes it sound like in the full rules there are some greater guidelines on making larger-sized units, where you pay extra points for enhancing them to a greater size above the minimum, which also has some benefits involved?

I've asked that myself, as the way I have my miniatures for home games of Kings of War, everything is set as a "Troops" size, and you just push them together to make Regiments/Hordes, for the most amount of combinations. So far the Hobgoblin Quick Start rules don't really seem to have a way to convince me to not just make all my infantry units in Hobgoblin armies as 100x40mm units, because using larger KoW Regiment-sized units only get weaker as their flanks get larger and they get easier to contact by enemies, with no real additional strengths.

**kenofyork**

It always baffles me that "speed of play" is so important in modern games.

2-4 hours makes a good game. Same time as a LOTR movie. Tik-Tok and youtube shorts are not the limit of my attention span.

**kodos**

2-4 hours is speed of play, some other current mass battle games (not just R&F) take 5+ hours or even 1-2 days to finish

2 hours pure gameplay and finishing everything (set up and clean up) in 3 hours is considered "speedy" for a Rank & File game

**stonehorse**

kenofyork wrote:
It always baffles me that "speed of play" is so important in modern games.

2-4 hours makes a good game. Same time as a LOTR movie. Tik-Tok and youtube shorts are not the limit of my attention span.

More to do with adult life cutting availability of free time. So getting to play a full game in 2 hours appeals to me greatly. Not due to lack of attention span.

**Ian Sturrock**

Thanks Aegis!

**AegisGrimm**

I get the feeling that Hobgoblin will play about as long as a similar game of Kings of War. The quickstart rules are not very determinative of how rules-light it is, because while at first blush, things like To-Wound rolls may not exist in Hobgoblin, but in the advanced rules it sounds like units can counterattack in the same phase, and Magic is somewhat more involved than in Kings of War (where it mostly runs like ranged attacks). Vanilla units are dead easy and quick to run, but keywords are easily going to make them more complicated to keep track of in-game.

I feel like 2-3 casually-spent hours (or less) for a wargame is about the speed I need when I am a working father of 2. Lots of games run longer than that. It's a Battletech vs. Alpha Strike situation for me, where there is a cost/benefit of complexity vs. time.

That's why one of the things for me is that I find the "Speed of Play" of a game isn't as important for me as "Smoothness of play" of a game. I need a game that I can only play 3-4 times a year, but still not have to get bogged down with rules references for all the stuff I forgot in the interim..

Perfectly honestly, what I am weighing about staying with just Kings of War vs. getting Hobgoblin almost boils down just to whether I want my heroes as individuals (KoW) or whether I want them as part of units (Hobgoblin). Everything else is just about interchangeable.

**lord_blackfang**

The Esoteric Order of Gamers just did an interview with the author, it explains some things.

Magic is definitely super involved, there's 10 schools of 3 spells each and Mike says his view of magic is that it should break the rules, as a representation of magic doing the impossible, so the effects are a lot more esoteric than ranged attacks with a fancy name.

**privateer4hire**

Aegis summed this up perfectly:
“…Smoothness of play" of a game. I need a game that I can only play 3-4 times a year, but still not have to get bogged down with rules references for all the stuff I forgot in the interim..”

That’s one thing I really liked about to wound in 8th edition 40k. A simple to remember comparison that no longer required a lookup table. A sort of elegance, almost.

On topic, I am interested in seeing how the magic system works in Hobgoblin. Having multiple schools sounds interesting especially if they can pull it off without over complicating things

**AegisGrimm**

For a game I never even knew was in development, it's cool to see that they've hit 50K, for an indie creator, and I am really tempted. The demo has some good bones, and I have been a fan of Gaslands since it came out originally. A Billion Suns looked interesting, too from the same creator.

I know the skirmish-level market has been super saturated in recent years. What does the 28mm Rank and Flank market look like? Honestly I only know about Kings of War, Age of Fantasy: Regiments, and anyone playing 9th Age/past Warhammer editions. I know Warhammer: The Old World is coming out in the future, but are there many other options?

Especially in the "multibase" sub-genre as opposed to "model removal". It really allows for creativity.

**Johanxp**

Well I usually do not like miniature agnostic games. But I think I will give this a chance.

**AegisGrimm**

I usually find them refreshing in their creative openness.

After 30 years of miniatures lines slavishly tied to the companies that make the rules to use them, it's nice to be able to just put together forces of whatever figures appeal to me. Especially with the advent of 3D printing.

**Mr Morden**

It looks like a better version of Dragon Rampant to me at first glance - better range of unit types. Not sure if the abilities are are also better balanced than DR.

I like DR but the pts and rules needed more work

**Theophony**

8 days left. Currently at $55k. Stretch goals listed.

**AegisGrimm**

I'm still on the fence. Bummer is that I really like printed books vs. PDF, and the book ends up nearly 70 dollars after the projected shipping, plus at least a half a year wait.

So I'm still weighing the pluses and minuses versus getting the new book of Kings of War, my other main RnF game.

Great to see it do so well in it's campaign, though.

**lord_blackfang**

Yeah in the EU it's easily another 30% on top of that... hopefully it makes its way to mainstream distribution.

**cygnnus**

insaniak wrote:
It also appears to include the part of KoW I dislike the most, with no model removal as the unit takes damage. Marking unit damage with a die instead of just removing models is weird.

I never understand people’s concern over this “issue” tbh. You do realize you could just use removed models as your “damage marker” as long as you use movement trays, right? If you unit has taken three hits, remove three models. You get to remove individual models and record the damage. Done and dusted.

But honestly, I’d MUCH rather leave the models I spent all that time painting remain on the table rather than pulling them off willy-nilly. And half (or more!) empty movement trays break the visual glory that can be one of the best parts of miniatures games for me.

Using damage markers vice removing individual models is hardly an unusual thing over the history of miniatures games.

But I guess, as always, to each their own…

Valete,

JohnS

**Johanxp**

It seems an interesting project and I will probably back it. But I think a miniature agnostic wargames will never truly succeed.

**insaniak**

cygnnus wrote:
I never understand people’s concern over this “issue” tbh. You do realize you could just use removed models as your “damage marker” as long as you use movement trays, right? If you unit has taken three hits, remove three models. You get to remove individual models and record the damage. Done and dusted.

Except that removing those models should then have an impact on how the unit performs. It seems to be becoming more the norm for rank and flank games to have the unit simply count as a homogeneous mass until it takes enough damage to be removed completely, which removes the need to have the models there in the first place is just not an abstract that interests me. I want the unit to be actually impacted by the damage it takes, and I want the models to count for more than just an arbitrary footprint.

But honestly, I’d MUCH rather leave the models I spent all that time painting remain on the table rather than pulling them off willy-nilly. And half (or more!) empty movement trays break the visual glory that can be one of the best parts of miniatures games for me.

And that's certainly a concern, and a reason that games should strive to keep damage and model removal within a reasonable level, as opposed to the GW norm where half an army can be removed from the table in the first turn of the game. But in a 28mm, those models should matter.