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What are people fielding? I have a bunch of sentinels, companies of Russ, hordes of chimera and variants and mounds of infantry and GSC. Suggestions for lists that show off the madness/fun of the militia at the common point values? (For us that is 500/1000/sometimes 2000.)

It seems like people are going for anything and everything at this point. I'm going to be doing something semi-elite as I have kitbash Troops that I really like making, others are going whole hog on hordes, others still are doing mainly Cavalry, and there's also those focusing in Tanks.

My next expansion is going to be more Ogryns so I'll be running Debased Rabble and Ogryn Conscripts, while possibly adding a small Sons of Horus allied detachment with a Dark Herald for a sweet 12" bubble of Ld10.

I was thinking of a mixed bag, driven largely by the models I have or want to get:

- Converted Cadian character models for the Force Commander and Discipline Masters.
- Death Korps for the basic troopers, because they look relatively grungy and low tech (and their faces are covered, which saves a lot of painting time).
- Imperial Navy Breachers as Grenadiers, as their aesthetic isn't too dissimilar to the Death Korps so they can pass as better equipped versions. I might take the Armoury of Old Night Provenance and give them Volkite chargers. I would also like to mount them in Rhinos, which would mean taking the Survivors of the Dark Age Provenance - I like the idea of patched up and battle-weary Rhinos. Of course, this will end up as a lot of points (and both Provenances) sunk into a few mediocre units, but it should look good. [Edit: the Breacher models have prominent Imperial Navy insignia which is going to be a bitch to remove. So scratch that idea…]
- Ogryns with melee weapons and boarding shields.
- Maybe some Rough Riders, with Death Korps heads - cavalry are always a lot of work to build and paint though.
- Sentinels, because why not? An excuse to get the new model, and with an enclosed cabin they won't need any significant conversion.
- Field guns using the new Cadian field ordnance sets with Death Korps crews (and solid metal wheels, if I can find some).
- Maybe some Sisters of Silence units to keep them all in line.

The biggest issue for me, apart from the sheer number of models involved, is the tanks. I dislike the Leman Russ model, and won't buy any FW Malcadors, so that doesn't leave much. Maybe a suitably beaten-up looking Baneblade?

I have seen people using the plastic wolverine model from the dungeons and lasers guys.

I think fun and madness should be tempered to a degree by functionality in a list.
That said.
Force commander: Unending horde, Admech provenance. 100pts.

6x3x50 levies for 1800 pts. and some anti tank and you got a nurgle horde.


Alternative and more serious take: 1000pts.

Kinfolk, cyber-augmetics.

HQ:
Force commander Iron halo, cyber- familiar 130 pts.

Elites:
Field Ordnance: 2 thunderblast: 85 pts.

Field Ordnance: 1 Thunderblast: 45 pts

Troops:
Mil Plat 1:
Militia squad: Lasguns/ Autoguns. Plasmagun, Krak grenades. 100pts.

Mil Plat 2:
Militia Squad: Lasguns/ autoguns. Plasmagun, Krak grenades. 100 pts.

Mil Plat 3:
Milita Squad: Lasguns. 80 pts.

Recon: 5 Sniperrifles. 100pts.

Fast Attack:
Cavalry: 5 Militia Lances, Meltagun. Carapace: 100 pts.

Senitnel, AC 60pts.

Heavy Support:
Malcador: Vanquisher, 3 x autocannons, Heavy stubber: 200.


Basically: A tac list? ish. Things that go for it. Huray t4 infantry and therefore fnp6+ working more. t5 ordnance and t7 sentinel also profiting from FNP. Lancers can dislocate or turn an engagement to your favour. A malcador with vanquisher (because bc's are just worse in every aspect) solves anti heavy infantry and heavy tank issues, however remember that it somehow doesn't have the normal malcadors independent gunner rule so talk to your opponent before the match if it applies or not. The sentinel is just alround decentish seeing at it basically a mini dreadnought with a more meh arsenal, but considering you get atleast 3 for one contemptor The fieldugns are here to either oppen up rhinos or pressure marines and other squads with pinning checks. (technically you can go with the calliope version but you sacrifice some AT capability for more anti infantry) . Sniper rifles are allround decent, and whilest these are no nemisis boltguns (not Ap 4 baseline) they are good enough for shicanery and eliminating the odd vexilia and sergant out of a squad. AS an aside since we are slow and purposefull this army is surprisingly mobile with it's heavy weapons. (if you feel like it you could even replace the PG's on the militia with the las sniper rifle but that seems unnecesary.)

I suspect I will be something like that, though with more plastic vehicles. The mere threat of me turning up with all the Leman Russ though means I think everyone else will be packing more AT making armour a bit dead

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I suspect I will be something like that, though with more plastic vehicles. The mere threat of me turning up with all the Leman Russ though means I think everyone else will be packing more AT making armour a bit dead

Probably the worst thing is, that when looked at sober one realises that squadrons that have effective armor 13 are not that durable against a squad of lascans support. Or even the odd lascannon on a landraider.

Yes the glancing rule for militia makes things interesting.

I think trying to play TAC with a Militia list at anything under 2k is a loser's game. 2k gets you just enough that you can start to get that sort of list but anything under and you need to pick a Bit and Commit to the Bit.

You can do both TAC and bit.

The thing with Militia is that, if you want to be more than cannon fodder to be mercilessly crushed, you have to lean hard into one thing. Melee hordes, tanks, ect. That doesn’t mean you can’t make a TAC list within that theme, but your list will always be skew in one way or another.

 morganfreeman wrote:
You can do both TAC and bit.

The thing with Militia is that, if you want to be more than cannon fodder to be mercilessly crushed, you have to lean hard into one thing. Melee hordes, tanks, ect. That doesn’t mean you can’t make a TAC list within that theme, but your list will always be skew in one way or another.

i mean even if you run solely tanks, you will get crushed by the one happy salamanders player that exists in all groups and normally get's crushed

Not Online!!! wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
You can do both TAC and bit.

The thing with Militia is that, if you want to be more than cannon fodder to be mercilessly crushed, you have to lean hard into one thing. Melee hordes, tanks, ect. That doesn’t mean you can’t make a TAC list within that theme, but your list will always be skew in one way or another.

i mean even if you run solely tanks, you will get crushed by the one happy salamanders player that exists in all groups and normally get's crushed

Hey now....

Racerguy180 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
You can do both TAC and bit.

The thing with Militia is that, if you want to be more than cannon fodder to be mercilessly crushed, you have to lean hard into one thing. Melee hordes, tanks, ect. That doesn’t mean you can’t make a TAC list within that theme, but your list will always be skew in one way or another.

i mean even if you run solely tanks, you will get crushed by the one happy salamanders player that exists in all groups and normally get's crushed

Hey now....

Nothing to do with the salamanders players and everything with the fact that gw screwed them over in regards to their special units and their speciality is anti -geq weaponry.

So if i occaisionally throw down the militia I don't mind to see them burnt to a crisp.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
You can do both TAC and bit.

The thing with Militia is that, if you want to be more than cannon fodder to be mercilessly crushed, you have to lean hard into one thing. Melee hordes, tanks, ect. That doesn’t mean you can’t make a TAC list within that theme, but your list will always be skew in one way or another.

i mean even if you run solely tanks, you will get crushed by the one happy salamanders player that exists in all groups and normally get's crushed

You'd seriously struggle to run only tanks. Militia can fit 120 chaff bodies, 6 squads of 20, into their two mandatory troop selections for the high cost of 240 points. If you want to invest just a teeny bit more, say 480 points, you can put over 200 levy bodies on the table.

This leaves militia players in the hilarious position of being able to run 20 LRBTs and 200 levies with a few points to spare and only one provenance chosen (the one for tank squads). Good luck trying to multi-melta tanks with bubble-wrapping chaff to block off the entire table. That's before said disposable chaff starts doing stuff like tying up enemy units / actively blocking desired movement.

Sure, but that's all rather theoretical. Very few players will have the time, money and energy needed to put something like that on the table.

 Snord wrote:
Sure, but that's all rather theoretical. Very few players will have the time, money and energy needed to put something like that on the table.

I'm responding to someone who was postulating an "all tanks" list, which would be in the realm of 24 LRBT. We're already well off the rails of probability.

Also.. It's not all that insane. Numerous R&H lists from 7th ed would show up with well over 100 auto-gun / mutant rabble mooks. Like wise, Guard used to field some impressive hordes via the platoon structure. So while I doubt we'll ever see someone show up with the theoretical 500 model strong levy army, I'd say something to the tune of 120~200 isn't unreasonable.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
You can do both TAC and bit.

The thing with Militia is that, if you want to be more than cannon fodder to be mercilessly crushed, you have to lean hard into one thing. Melee hordes, tanks, ect. That doesn’t mean you can’t make a TAC list within that theme, but your list will always be skew in one way or another.

i mean even if you run solely tanks, you will get crushed by the one happy salamanders player that exists in all groups and normally get's crushed

Hey now....

Nothing to do with the salamanders players and everything with the fact that gw screwed them over in regards to their special units and their speciality is anti -geq weaponry.

So if i occaisionally throw down the militia I don't mind to see them burnt to a crisp.

It's all good, I've played Salamanders since RT, I'm used to being neglected/forgotten or "gee this list isn't very Salamander...shoulda played Ultras" for a while, so!

 morganfreeman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
You can do both TAC and bit.

The thing with Militia is that, if you want to be more than cannon fodder to be mercilessly crushed, you have to lean hard into one thing. Melee hordes, tanks, ect. That doesn’t mean you can’t make a TAC list within that theme, but your list will always be skew in one way or another.

i mean even if you run solely tanks, you will get crushed by the one happy salamanders player that exists in all groups and normally get's crushed

You'd seriously struggle to run only tanks. Militia can fit 120 chaff bodies, 6 squads of 20, into their two mandatory troop selections for the high cost of 240 points. If you want to invest just a teeny bit more, say 480 points, you can put over 200 levy bodies on the table.

This leaves militia players in the hilarious position of being able to run 20 LRBTs and 200 levies with a few points to spare and only one provenance chosen (the one for tank squads). Good luck trying to multi-melta tanks with bubble-wrapping chaff to block off the entire table. That's before said disposable chaff starts doing stuff like tying up enemy units / actively blocking desired movement.

Incidentally you are pretty close to my initial draft for such a force but i decided against it for a multitude of reasons.
A: Bubblewrap quality is lower than R&H bubblewrap. Especially levies frankly suck for this for the simple reason that 25% of losses in one phase from the start of the turn force a morale check and they don't run, they just commit ritualistic sudoku. f.e. it's also easy to double charge them in melee and just sweep them respectivly you don't even need to be able to sweep considering that a double charge = morale check = if failed fallback, which levies due to expendable can't.

B: Space. 20 Leman russes take up far too much space even on large tables, and so long you are not recreating the desert campaign with little terrain features that will be a disadvantage.

C: Effective armor 13 / 12 and 9 ontop of squad rules being what they are... and the most common squad i see locally in many legion forces (beyond tacs) is the Heavy support lascannon squad...

in conclusion, it's not that the "tank militia" isn't one of the strongest options we have, it's that levies don't work with it decently enough and that you will require tools that migitate enemy firepower like HSS.
Hence why i am at something like:

force commander: tank provenance, and kinfolk

5x3 vanquisher leman russes (because the vanquisher with coaxial is just so much above the rest in output it's not even funny and the only weapon in the militia list to reasonably deal with terminators.)

And then militia squads for the 2 compulsory troops and then either calliope or thunderblast ordnance in order to pin enemy units with maybe a recon squad or 2 with sniper rifles for the same.

 Snord wrote:
Sure, but that's all rather theoretical. Very few players will have the time, money and energy needed to put something like that on the table.

Which goes back to the point made in the article which says that the army is more intended for veteran players/hobbyists who already have substantial collections. My C&M force is built from two old Guard armies, Cultists from CSM, R&H from FW, and various other humanoid models from GW armies. I'm sitting on close to 200 infantry models and close to a platoon worth of various tanks, which is why it is easy for me to mess around with a bunch of different lists and Provenances.
Now it is obviously possible to play C&M from scratch but by no means is it the equal of a Legion, Talons, or even Mechanicum force in terms of ease to make.

How would you go about with a sentienl centric force?

To me it seems like it could work quite well ironically.

 Snord wrote:
Sure, but that's all rather theoretical. Very few players will have the time, money and energy needed to put something like that on the table.

So it turns out many dedicated IG players with a variety of forces can actually have all that ready and painted.... Would certainly make everyone else want to slap me.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
You can do both TAC and bit.

The thing with Militia is that, if you want to be more than cannon fodder to be mercilessly crushed, you have to lean hard into one thing. Melee hordes, tanks, ect. That doesn’t mean you can’t make a TAC list within that theme, but your list will always be skew in one way or another.

i mean even if you run solely tanks, you will get crushed by the one happy salamanders player that exists in all groups and normally get's crushed

You'd seriously struggle to run only tanks. Militia can fit 120 chaff bodies, 6 squads of 20, into their two mandatory troop selections for the high cost of 240 points. If you want to invest just a teeny bit more, say 480 points, you can put over 200 levy bodies on the table.

This leaves militia players in the hilarious position of being able to run 20 LRBTs and 200 levies with a few points to spare and only one provenance chosen (the one for tank squads). Good luck trying to multi-melta tanks with bubble-wrapping chaff to block off the entire table. That's before said disposable chaff starts doing stuff like tying up enemy units / actively blocking desired movement.

Incidentally you are pretty close to my initial draft for such a force but i decided against it for a multitude of reasons.
A: Bubblewrap quality is lower than R&H bubblewrap. Especially levies frankly suck for this for the simple reason that 25% of losses in one phase from the start of the turn force a morale check and they don't run, they just commit ritualistic sudoku. f.e. it's also easy to double charge them in melee and just sweep them respectivly you don't even need to be able to sweep considering that a double charge = morale check = if failed fallback, which levies due to expendable can't.

Snip

Spoiler:

B: Space. 20 Leman russes take up far too much space even on large tables, and so long you are not recreating the desert campaign with little terrain features that will be a disadvantage.

C: Effective armor 13 / 12 and 9 ontop of squad rules being what they are... and the most common squad i see locally in many legion forces (beyond tacs) is the Heavy support lascannon squad...

in conclusion, it's not that the "tank militia" isn't one of the strongest options we have, it's that levies don't work with it decently enough and that you will require tools that migitate enemy firepower like HSS.
Hence why i am at something like:

force commander: tank provenance, and kinfolk

5x3 vanquisher leman russes (because the vanquisher with coaxial is just so much above the rest in output it's not even funny and the only weapon in the militia list to reasonably deal with terminators.)

And then militia squads for the 2 compulsory troops and then either calliope or thunderblast ordnance in order to pin enemy units with maybe a recon squad or 2 with sniper rifles for the same.

Non-grenadier infantry are basically designed around the Tyrant warlord trait. You can get a barebones leader who's like 120pts with a 3++ save that makes all infantry around him auto pass break tests at the cost of 1d6 models whenever they fail a moral check. Your bubble wrap levies won't fight their way out of a wet paper bag but they'll waste a hilarious amount of time, especially if you go into Unending Horde and get kinda cheesy with your deployment; snaking it up so that all of your wrap gets the aura.

This circles all the way back to my original post in this thread: While Militia can be built to TAC (kinda), they themselves will always operate on skew due to the quality of their forces. Militia are not a balanced TAC list of a couple of wrapping blobs, some elite infantry, and combined melee + ranged elements supported by a few tanks. They're an "All in" army which you build around a single centralized thing you want them to be passable at, and then clobber people over the head with that thing via sheer weight of numbers due to their cheap-and-disposable points costs.

At least if you want them to be able to put up a fight. If you don't mind being 100% NPC mook for the other player to roll over like they're playing Dynasty Warriors, then disregard what I'm saying and build however you want. But I'm about done repeating myself to people who've only given the PDF a cursory read.

 morganfreeman wrote:


Non-grenadier infantry are basically designed around the Tyrant warlord trait. You can get a barebones leader who's like 120pts with a 3++ save that makes all infantry around him auto pass break tests at the cost of 1d6 models whenever they fail a moral check. Your bubble wrap levies won't fight their way out of a wet paper bag but they'll waste a hilarious amount of time, especially if you go into Unending Horde and get kinda cheesy with your deployment; snaking it up so that all of your wrap gets the aura.

This circles all the way back to my original post in this thread: While Militia can be built to TAC (kinda), they themselves will always operate on skew due to the quality of their forces. Militia are not a balanced TAC list of a couple of wrapping blobs, some elite infantry, and combined melee + ranged elements supported by a few tanks. They're an "All in" army which you build around a single centralized thing you want them to be passable at, and then clobber people over the head with that thing via sheer weight of numbers due to their cheap-and-disposable points costs.

At least if you want them to be able to put up a fight. If you don't mind being 100% NPC mook for the other player to roll over like they're playing Dynasty Warriors, then disregard what I'm saying and build however you want. But I'm about done repeating myself to people who've only given the PDF a cursory read.

Page 6, warlord traits.
Ruthless Tyrant
The commander is a dark-hearted tyrant; either from a line whose
bloody rule has persisted for generations or who has risen to
their position through iron-fisted ruthlessness and ambition. The
commander might be hated, but they are always obeyed.

A Warlord with this Warlord Trait gains the Fear (1) special
rule, which affects all friendly models as well as enemy models
(this does not include the Warlord with this Trait, which is not
affected). However, should any friendly unit that is under the
effect of this model’s Fear (1) special rule and under the control
of the player whose Warlord has this Trait, be forced to Fall
Back during the Movement phase or Shooting phase, then the
controlling player may instead remove D6 models, or a single
model with the Monstrous Unit Sub-type, from that unit as
casualties. These casualties are chosen by the unit’s controlling
player and no Saving Throws or Damage Mitigation rolls of
any kind may be taken for them. If this option is used then the
unit does not Fall Back, but instead remains in place without
further effect. In addition, an army whose Warlord has this
Trait may make an additional Reaction during their opponent’s
Assault phase as long as the Warlord has not been removed as
a casualty

see, i agree with you with the pick a theme and run with it, but unlike you i am more a stickler to rules and not so much someone that reads things cursory.

So now that we have firmly established that , no, ruthless tyrant doesn't solve your moral and especially melee moral related issues AT ALL for the militia type, because you can charge a unit with squads and just by statistics alone can basically with 3 squads guarantee that the levies die (or less because remember tyrant also lowers your own morale).
Coherency is a thing that exists, 2" for infantry and 4" for tank squadrons now granted the coherency isn't that big an issue since fear is 12" bubble. Then there is the fact that a leman russ base size is 3"to 5" so takes up 15"^2 for a singular leman russ. We are talking 20 in your exemple or 15 in my suggested version. 20 x 15^2" = 300^2" just taken up by tanks. Not even going into terrain that is on the more generous 864^2" tabledeployment scenarios still a lot of space. So from a practicability standpoint the tank list is fine and dandy but, yeah no after a certain point the tanks will stand in their own way.

How does the Tyrant trait even work with the Levy's Expendable special rule?
Can you elect to blam morale if the unit cannot fall back to begin with? I think there is an argument that the unit will just remove itself before the Tyrant allows an auto-pass.
There was a similar discussion regarding Alchem which had much the same concensus; abilities that trigger off Falling Back do not work for Levy.

Mozzamanx wrote:
How does the Tyrant trait even work with the Levy's Expendable special rule?
Can you elect to blam morale if the unit cannot fall back to begin with? I think there is an argument that the unit will just remove itself before the Tyrant allows an auto-pass.
There was a similar discussion regarding Alchem which had much the same concensus; abilities that trigger off Falling Back do not work for Levy.

Well, expendable to me reads:
IF morale fail = not fall back --> instead sudoku

Arguably if you consider "fall back" as the qualifyer to trigger the sudoku incident, then alchem jackers works because it states If Morale fail (in shooting phase and more than half the unit remaining) = pinned instead of fall back. But since expendable explicitly states when morale fails the unit dies instead of falling back i don't think even alchem jackers works on them.

BUT Ruthless tyrant still doesn't work on it because it explicitly only triggers off the "fall back" and since levies can't perform the fall back "action" and instead commit ritualised suicide, ruthless tyrant can't keep them on the field.

because morale states that immediatly after the morale test you have to perform fall back, which levies absolutly can't because they don't fall back they just die if they fail morale. Hence the tyrant can't keep levies on the field but militia squads and everything else but only because they aren't expendable.

With Wargames Atlantic's upcoming kickstarter the financial impact of fielding hundreds of mooks is severely diminished. And they look like 5 minutes per model with Contrast kind of sculpts.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
With Wargames Atlantic's upcoming kickstarter the financial impact of fielding hundreds of mooks is severely diminished. And they look like 5 minutes per model with Contrast kind of sculpts.

Red squad forward! Blue squad forward!