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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





UK

Can a battelwagon full of burna boyz shoot overwatch with the burnas too?
Also, can you shoot overwatch within engagement range, and target units outisde combat?
And can you shoot firing deck shoots against the units that you are in combat with too?

I might be missing somehting obvious, but it would seem This can be done, right? Sounds like with all the guns on this thing it could be quite a beast to approach

Firing Deck ‘x’:
Each time this Transport
shoots, select one weapon from up
to ‘x’ models embarked within it; this
Transport counts as being equipped
with those weapons as well.

Overwatch?
WHEN: Your opponent’s Movement or Charge phase,
just after an enemy unit is set up or when an enemy
unit starts or ends a Normal, Advance, Fall Back or
Charge move.
TARGET: One unit from your army that is within 24" of
that enemy unit and that would be eligible to shoot if
it were your Shooting phase.
EFFECT: Your unit can shoot that enemy unit as if it
were your Shooting phase.
RESTRICTIONS: Until the end of the phase, each
time a model in your unit makes a ranged attack,
an unmodified Hit roll of 6 is required to score a hit,
irrespective of the attacking weapon’s Ballistic Skill
or any modifiers. You can only use this Stratagem
once per turn.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/18 19:46:06


Serve the Emperor today, for tomorrow you may be be dead.
Painting blog:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/793314.page
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

This is the full rules for Firing Deck.
FIRING DECK
Some transports have firing hatches, ports orplatforms from which embarked passengers can shoot.

Some Transport models have ‘Firing Deck x’ listed in their abilities. Each time such a model is selected to shoot in the Shooting phase, you can select up to ‘x’ models embarked within it. Then, for each of those embarked models, you can select one ranged weapon that embarked model is equipped with. Until that Transport model has resolved all of its attacks, it counts as being equipped with all of the weapons you selected in this way, in addition to its other weapons.
As this ability applies when the Transport is selected to shoot in the Shooting Phase, it does not apply to Overwatch or any other instance the Transport fires beyond the Shooting Phase.

For your reference, the rules for As the Shooting Phase have changed between 9th and 10th edition.
OUT-OF-PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge or fight outside of the normal turn sequence. For example, the Fire Overwatch Stratagem enables a unit to shoot in the opponent’s turn as if it were your Shooting phase. When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase.

Example: In your opponent’s Movement phase, you use the Fire Overwatch Stratagem to enable a Whirlwind from your army to shoot as if it were your Shooting phase. The Whirlwind has the Pinning Bombardment ability, which is used ‘In your Shooting phase, after this model has shot’. Because Fire Overwatch is an out-of-phase rule, it only allows the Whirlwind to perform the specified action (in this case, shooting as if it were your Shooting phase) and does not trigger any other rules that would normally be used in your Shooting phase. This means the Whirlwind’s Pinning Bombardment ability has no effect while resolving these attacks, and you could not use any other Stratagems that are used in your Shooting phase to affect those attacks.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





UK

 alextroy wrote:
This is the full rules for Firing Deck.


Ow, didnt notice the diference.

Therefore, first question solved. Still remains the other 2, what are your thoughs?

Can a battelwagon full of burna boyz shoot overwatch with the burnas too? - NO

Can you shoot overwatch within engagement range, and target units outisde combat?
Can you shoot firing deck shoots while in engagement range, both to the units you are in combat to and the ones outside of it?

Serve the Emperor today, for tomorrow you may be be dead.
Painting blog:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/793314.page
 
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Killatores wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
This is the full rules for Firing Deck.


Ow, didnt notice the diference.

Therefore, first question solved. Still remains the other 2, what are your thoughs?

Can a battelwagon full of burna boyz shoot overwatch with the burnas too? - NO

Can you shoot overwatch within engagement range, and target units outisde combat?
Can you shoot firing deck shoots while in engagement range, both to the units you are in combat to and the ones outside of it?


For the later two, we have to go down the Rabbithole. The Overwatch stratagem says you can shoot with units that would be 'eligible to shoot if it was the shooting phase'. So we turn to the RC:

Eligible to Shoot (when not equipped with ranged weapons): Unless
a unit Advanced or Fell Back this turn or is Locked in Combat, it is
eligible to shoot
, even if no models in that unit are equipped with
ranged weapons. This means that such units can be selected for any
rules that require you to select a unit that is eligible to shoot.


From there on, we check 'Locked in Combat':

Locked in Combat: While a unit is within Engagement Range of one
or more enemy units, it is said to be Locked in Combat. Units that are
Locked in Combat are not eligible to shoot
and cannot be selected
as the target of a ranged attack. Monster and Vehicle units are
exceptions to this (see Big Guns Never Tire)
.


So your transport, being a Vehicle, is excepted from 'Locked in Combat'. We carry on to 'Big Guns never tire':

Big Guns Never Tire (Blast weapons and Pistols): Monster and
Vehicle units can shoot, and be shot at, even while they are Locked
in Combat (Core Rules, page 20).


This reference returns us to the Core Rules:

BIG GUNS NEVER TIRE
Monsters and war engines can
dispense death from afar even as they
trample the masses before them.
Monster and Vehicle units are
eligible to shoot in their controlling
player’s Shooting phase even while
they are within Engagement Range
of one or more enemy units
. Ranged
weapons equipped by Monster
and Vehicle units can target one
or more of the enemy units they
are within Engagement Range of,
even if other friendly units are
also within Engagement Range of
the same enemy unit. Each time a
Monster or Vehicle model makes a
ranged attack, if its unit was within
Engagement Range of one or more
enemy units when it selected its
targets, unless that attack is made
with a Pistol (pg 25), subtract 1
from that attack’s Hit roll.
You can select an enemy Monster
or Vehicle unit within Engagement
Range of one or more units from
your army as a target of ranged
weapons. Each time a model from
your army makes a ranged attack
against such a target, unless that
attack is made with a Pistol, subtract
1 from that attack’s Hit roll.


So, to recap: Your vehicle may shoot even if it is in Engagement Range of enemy units, and it may target whichever units it likes, even if these units are themselves in Engagment Range of your Vehicle or other friendly units. But they must not do so exclusively, they can fire at any target that is in range and visible (there's a helpful diagram there that explains that explicitly in the RC, which i won't cut and paste). All of this, of course, circles back to Overwatch: you are eligible to shoot, and thus can be elected to fire Overwatch, as long as you are in 24'' as the Stratagem demands, even if you are locked in Combat or whatever, since you could fire at these units in your Shooting Phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/19 09:37:00


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





UK

Thanks for your answers , I was thinking that and needed to double check since it might make some transports particularly strong.


Can a battelwagon full of burna boyz shoot overwatch with the burnas too? - NO (firing deck only is available on the shooting phase)

Can a vehicle shoot overwatch within engagement range, and target units outisde combat? - YES (vehicles can shoot while in combat, thust can overwatch)

Can a vehicle shoot firing deck shoots while in engagement range, both to the units you are in combat to and the ones outside of it? - YES (in the shooting phase vehicles can shoot while in combat, and in that shooting firing deck shots are included)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Got another question:

Ork Meks have a "blessing of the omnisia" type hability, where they heal and give +1 to the vehicle hit rolls.
Firing deck shots are considered weapons of the vehicle, thus, they also get the +1, right?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/19 11:38:59


Serve the Emperor today, for tomorrow you may be be dead.
Painting blog:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/793314.page
 
   
Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





As far as I can read, correct on the +1 to hit
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Yes. Firing Deck weapons are treated as weapons of the vehicle not the units inside.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




 Killatores wrote:

Can a battelwagon full of burna boyz shoot overwatch with the burnas too? - NO (firing deck only is available on the shooting phase)


wait a second... why is firing deck only avaiable in the shooting phase?

everything i read so far in this thread says it can.

OUT-OF-PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge or fight outside of the normal turn sequence. For example, the Fire Overwatch Stratagem enables a unit to shoot in the opponent’s turn as if it were your Shooting phase. When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase.

Example: In your opponent’s Movement phase, you use the Fire Overwatch Stratagem to enable a Whirlwind from your army to shoot as if it were your Shooting phase. The Whirlwind has the Pinning Bombardment ability, which is used ‘In your Shooting phase, after this model has shot’. Because Fire Overwatch is an out-of-phase rule, it only allows the Whirlwind to perform the specified action (in this case, shooting as if it were your Shooting phase) and does not trigger any other rules that would normally be used in your Shooting phase. This means the Whirlwind’s Pinning Bombardment ability has no effect while resolving these attacks, and you could not use any other Stratagems that are used in your Shooting phase to affect those attacks.


firing deck is part of an specific action, namely "shooting in your shooting phase"
it is not an ability "triggered (ELSEWHERE) in the shooting phase" like the example given (Whirlwind’s Pinning Bombardment, which triggers AFTER shooting)

so YES, your battlwagon can use the burnaboyz weapons in overwatch, as per "firing deck" rule, to shoot into CC or at other units while beeing itself locked in CC

edited for better readability

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2023/06/19 22:34:50


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

I must disagree. Firing Deck says
FIRING DECK
Some transports have firing hatches, ports orplatforms from which embarked passengers can shoot.

Some Transport models have ‘Firing Deck x’ listed in their abilities. Each time such a model is selected to shoot in the Shooting phase, you can select up to ‘x’ models embarked within it. Then, for each of those embarked models, you can select one ranged weapon that embarked model is equipped with. Until that Transport model has resolved all of its attacks, it counts as being equipped with all of the weapons you selected in this way, in addition to its other weapons.
This rule is triggered by the Shooting Phase and Out of Phase rules says "When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase". Firing Deck is triggered by being selected to shoot in the Shooting phase. If it said, "each time this model is selected to shoot" without mentioning a phase, it would work.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




no.

overwatch:
TARGET: One unit from your army that is within 24" of
that enemy unit and that would be eligible to shoot if
it were your Shooting phase.
EFFECT: Your unit can shoot that enemy unit as if it
were your Shooting phase.


page 19 core rulebook:
Use the following sequence when a
unit shoots.

1. select eligible unit
2. select targets
3. make ranged attacks
4. select other unit

beeing selected to shoot is part of "when a unit shoots", therefore you can use firing deck normally when using overwatch

EDIT:
to make it clearer...
the example given with the pinning bomardment would be AFTER step 4 and BEFORE step 1 OF YOUR NEXT unit. so not while the whirlwind is shooting, hence you cannot use this ability while overwatching. Because Overwatch and out-of-phase rules only allow it to shoot (the four steps)
Pinning Bombardment: In your Shooting phase, after this
model has shot

note: "after the model has shot" so all four steps has been concluded
firing deck on the other hand triggers WHILE the unit is shooting (step 1.)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/06/19 23:19:46


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

We will have to disagree until GW rules one way or another in an FAQ.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





RedNoak wrote:
no.

overwatch:
TARGET: One unit from your army that is within 24" of
that enemy unit and that would be eligible to shoot if
it were your Shooting phase.
EFFECT: Your unit can shoot that enemy unit as if it
were your Shooting phase.


page 19 core rulebook:
Use the following sequence when a
unit shoots.

1. select eligible unit
2. select targets
3. make ranged attacks
4. select other unit

beeing selected to shoot is part of "when a unit shoots", therefore you can use firing deck normally when using overwatch


And FAQ says: " For example, the Fire Overwatch Stratagem enables a unit to shoot in the opponent’s turn as if it were your Shooting phase. When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase."

You can't use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase.

So you can't use firing deck that is TRIGGERED IN SHOOTING PHASE.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




 alextroy wrote:
We will have to disagree until GW rules one way or another in an FAQ.


i find that pretty clear.

tneva82 wrote:


And FAQ says: " For example, the Fire Overwatch Stratagem enables a unit to shoot in the opponent’s turn as if it were your Shooting phase. When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase."

You can't use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase.

So you can't use firing deck that is TRIGGERED IN SHOOTING PHASE.


the Term "shootingphase" is not equal to "when your unit shoots"
the latter is part of the former. any abilities that trigger while "the unit is shooting" is also used in overwatch. abilities that are triggered in your shooting phase, but OUTSIDE of "when you unit is shooting" CANNOT be used in overwatch. like pinning bombardment on the whirlwind

reminder of OUT-OF-PHASE rule:
The Whirlwind has the Pinning Bombardment ability, which is used ‘In your Shooting phase, after this model has shot’. Because Fire Overwatch is an out-of-phase rule, it only allows the Whirlwind to perform the specified action (in this case, shooting as if it were your Shooting phase) and does not trigger any other rules that would normally be used in your Shooting phase.


other examples would be:
lieutanants
Shoot and Fade: In your Shooting phase, after this model’s unit has shot, if it is not within Engagement Range of any enemy models, it can make a Normal move of up to D6".

or
infernus squads
Purge the Foe: In your Shooting phase, after this unit has
shot
, you can select one enemy Infantry unit hit by one or
more of those attacks made with a pyreblaster. That enemy
unit must take a Battle-shock test.


all these abilities listed above cannot be used in Overwatch, because they are triggered AFTER the unit has shot. (its still triggered in the shooting phase... just not WHILE the unit is shooting)

but ablities like
Centurions
Decimator Protocols: Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack, re-roll a Hit roll of 1. If the target of that attack is an enemy unit within range of an objective marker, you can re-roll the Hit roll instead.


will work just fine, because they are triggered WHILE the unit is shooting.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/20 07:59:07


 
   
Made in it
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Overseas

 Killatores wrote:

Got another question:

Ork Meks have a "blessing of the omnisia" type hability, where they heal and give +1 to the vehicle hit rolls.
Firing deck shots are considered weapons of the vehicle, thus, they also get the +1, right?

Yes, since Firing Deck makes those weapons part of the Battlewagon, and the Mek gives the +1 to Hit to the Battlewagon model then you get the +1 to Hit on the firing deck weapons.

As far as I can tell though the Mek has to be outside the Battlewagon to use this ability, so presumably you've got 21 + a Mek inside the Battlewagon, after it moves the Mek hops out and provides the bonus giving the remaining occupants the +1 to Hit. Depending on how close your wagon has moved towards the enemy it may make it easier for the enemy to overcome Lone Operative.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





UK

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
 Killatores wrote:

Got another question:

Ork Meks have a "blessing of the omnisia" type hability, where they heal and give +1 to the vehicle hit rolls.
Firing deck shots are considered weapons of the vehicle, thus, they also get the +1, right?

Yes, since Firing Deck makes those weapons part of the Battlewagon, and the Mek gives the +1 to Hit to the Battlewagon model then you get the +1 to Hit on the firing deck weapons.

As far as I can tell though the Mek has to be outside the Battlewagon to use this ability, so presumably you've got 21 + a Mek inside the Battlewagon, after it moves the Mek hops out and provides the bonus giving the remaining occupants the +1 to Hit. Depending on how close your wagon has moved towards the enemy it may make it easier for the enemy to overcome Lone Operative.


That's correct.
One of the ideas was to have 10x2 flashgitz, and either 2 normal meks or 1 normal and one with with Shokk attack gun in the wagon.
You move the wagon, hop the mek out, get the ff, shoot with everything, and for following turns keep some other vehicle around the mek, mostly for repairs and safety. If needed, you move with the wagon again, pop out a second mek, boost and repeat the shooting.
It might be too complicated and too costly plus you loose some unit abilities too

Serve the Emperor today, for tomorrow you may be be dead.
Painting blog:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/793314.page
 
   
Made in it
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Overseas

Ork shooting is always complicated and too costly but it's certainly worth a try.

The Big Mek with the SAG can't lead Flashgitz only Lootas (well technically Lootaz with the typo ), which is a shame since they already have reroll 1s. So I think 2x regular Meks would be the way to go.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





UK

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Ork shooting is always complicated and too costly but it's certainly worth a try.

The Big Mek with the SAG can't lead Flashgitz only Lootas (well technically Lootaz with the typo ), which is a shame since they already have reroll 1s. So I think 2x regular Meks would be the way to go.


I though of the mek with SAG just to make more use of that +1 to hit. It does not need to lead the flashgitz. 2 regular meks allow for 2 turns of movement and shooting, and if your list have other vehicles (I like koptas, buggies or just trukks), you can make use of the repairs
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

RedNoak wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
We will have to disagree until GW rules one way or another in an FAQ.


i find that pretty clear.

tneva82 wrote:


And FAQ says: " For example, the Fire Overwatch Stratagem enables a unit to shoot in the opponent’s turn as if it were your Shooting phase. When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase."

You can't use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase.

So you can't use firing deck that is TRIGGERED IN SHOOTING PHASE.


the Term "shootingphase" is not equal to "when your unit shoots"
the latter is part of the former. any abilities that trigger while "the unit is shooting" is also used in overwatch. abilities that are triggered in your shooting phase, but OUTSIDE of "when you unit is shooting" CANNOT be used in overwatch. like pinning bombardment on the whirlwind

reminder of OUT-OF-PHASE rule:
The Whirlwind has the Pinning Bombardment ability, which is used ‘In your Shooting phase, after this model has shot’. Because Fire Overwatch is an out-of-phase rule, it only allows the Whirlwind to perform the specified action (in this case, shooting as if it were your Shooting phase) and does not trigger any other rules that would normally be used in your Shooting phase.


other examples would be:
lieutanants
Shoot and Fade: In your Shooting phase, after this model’s unit has shot, if it is not within Engagement Range of any enemy models, it can make a Normal move of up to D6".

or
infernus squads
Purge the Foe: In your Shooting phase, after this unit has
shot
, you can select one enemy Infantry unit hit by one or
more of those attacks made with a pyreblaster. That enemy
unit must take a Battle-shock test.


all these abilities listed above cannot be used in Overwatch, because they are triggered AFTER the unit has shot. (its still triggered in the shooting phase... just not WHILE the unit is shooting)

but ablities like
Centurions
Decimator Protocols: Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack, re-roll a Hit roll of 1. If the target of that attack is an enemy unit within range of an objective marker, you can re-roll the Hit roll instead.


will work just fine, because they are triggered WHILE the unit is shooting.
Yes. And you seem to be overlooking “in your shooting phase” part of Firing Deck. That is why it does not work with Overwatch as compared to Decimator Protocols that lacks that language.

So as I said, this is a good point for an FAQ to clear up their intent.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




what do you mean by i've overlooked the part of firing deck that says in your shooting phase?

every ability triggers in your shoooting phase. you can only make ranged attacks in the shooting phase.

FIRING DECK
Some Transport models have ‘Firing Deck x’ listed in their abilities. Each time such a model is selected to shoot in the Shooting phase, you can select up to ‘x’ models embarked within it...[...]


"firing deck" is triggered in the "select eligible unit" step of the sequence defining how a unit shoots.

'Decimeter Protocols' is triggered in the "make ranged attacks" step of the sequence defining how a unit shoots.


page 19 core rulebook:
Use the following sequence when a
unit shoots.
1. select eligible unit
2. select targets
3. make ranged attacks
4. select other unit


why do you say one is ok to use in overwatch and the other is not?

Phase out rules states, that you can use only abilities that trigger, when your unit shoots and that you cannot use abilities that would normally be triggered (somewhere else) in your shooting phase. both firing deck and decimator protocols are triggered when your unit shoots (see the four steps in the quote)
the given example of Pinning Bombardment specifically says: ‘In your Shooting phase, after this model has shot’ and therefore cannot be used.

EDIT:
Overwatch essentially gives you an oppurtunity to "shoot with a unit", so going through the sequence when a unit shoots. you go through all 4 steps normally if it were you shooting phase. that what shooting with a unit means.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
example.

a unit of boyz moves in 24" of my centurions.
i use overwatch strategem on my centurions.
overwatch:

TARGET: One unit from your army that is within 24" of
that enemy unit and that would be eligible to shoot if
it were your Shooting phase.
EFFECT: Your unit can shoot that enemy unit as if it
were your Shooting phase.

so i go through the sequence of shooting with a unit:
step 1. choose egible unit.
- only one unit is elible to shoot. my centurions.
step 2 choose target
- only one target is valid to shoot at. the unit of boyz
step 3 make ranged attacks
- you declare all your weapons you want to use etc and its also here that their ability 'decimeter protocols' is triggered.
step 4 select another unit
- no unit is eligible to shoot. sequence ends.

now your unit is done shooting. and NOW all other effects, that take place AFTER a unit has shot, would be triggered (like Pinning Bombardment ). but they do not because the OUT-OF-PHASE rule prehibits the use of abilities that would normally be triggered in the shooting phase.


the same happens with firing deck. the only exception is, that it is triggered in step 1 instead of step 3 'when a unit shoots'

so i repeat my question. why do you think 'decimeter protocols' is ok for overwatch but 'firing deck' is not?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/20 20:40:18


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

FIRING DECK
Some transports have firing hatches, ports orplatforms from which embarked passengers can shoot.

Some Transport models have ‘Firing Deck x’ listed in their abilities. Each time such a model is selected to shoot in the Shooting phase, you can select up to ‘x’ models embarked within it. Then, for each of those embarked models, you can select one ranged weapon that embarked model is equipped with. Until that Transport model has resolved all of its attacks, it counts as being equipped with all of the weapons you selected in this way, in addition to its other weapons.
Decimator Protocols: Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack, re-roll a Hit roll of 1. If the target of that attack is an enemy unit within range of an objective marker, you can re-roll the Hit roll instead.
Look at the words in Red in Firing Deck. Notice that such words are not part of Decimator Protocols. Decimator Protocols works Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack while Firing Deck works Each time such a model is selected to shoot in the Shooting phase.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




 alextroy wrote:
Look at the words in Red in Firing Deck. Notice that such words are not part of Decimator Protocols. Decimator Protocols works Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack while Firing Deck works Each time such a model is selected to shoot in the Shooting phase.


yes. and beeing selected in the shooting phase is part of "when a unit shoots".

page 19 CORE RULEBOOK


Use the following sequence when a
unit shoots
.
1. select eligible unit
2. select targets
3. make ranged attacks
4. repeat for next eligible unit


i mean you can keep on ignoring my argument and repeating yours... or you can achknowledge mine and counter.

is "a model is selected to shoot" part of "when a unit shoots" ? (specifically step 1)

yes or no?

if you choose 'no'... then why is making ranged attacks part of "when a unit shoots"

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/06/20 22:46:37


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

You are equating where the rules for shooting are detailed with the phase itself. They are not synonymous. The sequence to shoot is followed each time a unit shoots regardless of what phase it shoots in.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

I will say there is something smelly/fishy going on with the rules around out of phase actions and weapons.

Certain weapon effects (e.g. Tremorquake or Concussive Wave) stop working in Overwatch, which doesn't make much sense cinematically.

"Good thing it was our movement phase, Sarge, or that Tremorquake shell that just exploded in our ranks would have forced Battleshock!"

But it is probably a balance thing.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




ok. so you still dont want to answer a simple yes or no question. that alone tells me that you pretty much know that the answer is yes.

You are equating where the rules for shooting are detailed with the phase itself. They are not synonymous. The sequence to shoot is followed each time a unit shoots regardless of what phase it shoots in.

No i am not. the sequence is PART of the shooting phase. I said that in a previous post. That is my whole point. the sequence excatly DEFINES AS PER RULES how to shoot with a unit.

look at the OUT OF PHASE rule:
Because Fire Overwatch is an out-of-phase rule, it only allows the Whirlwind to perform the specified action (in this case, shooting as if it were your Shooting phase) and does not trigger any other rules that would normally be used in your Shooting phase.


1. what is "shooting in your shooting phase"? its NOT only making ranged attacks!
2. its a "specified action" wihich specified action? well its the frikking "sequence when a unit shoots"!
3. is there any other part of the shooting phase that is outside of this sequence? yes, the part AFTER the unit shot.

note that all the abilities i listed before and the ONE EXPLICITLY MENTIONED IN THE OUT OF PHASE rules in the commentary publication... does NOT say after it made its ranged attacks! it says after the unit has shot.
when is this moment? AFTER the sequence "when a unit shoots" has ended.

Firing deck's trigger is part of the sequence "when a unit shoots" same as decimator protocols is also part of that sequence. you simply cant allow one but not the other.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

To answer your repeated question, every time a unit shoots, it uses this sequence:

Using this sequence does not make it the Shooting Phase. It is the shooting sequence that you follow anytime you shoot.

Firing Deck applies when you are selected to shoot in the Shooting phase. Please explain to me how that is not a rule that is triggered by the Shooting phase? It doesn't matter that it is triggered at the beginning of the process or by the end of the process, the important thing is in the Shooting phase makes it ineligible for Out of Phase shooting.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/21 00:39:28


 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




No because the ONLY time U can select a unit for shooting is by that sequence. The sequence DEFINES it. 'Select eligible unit' is the ONLY way to select a unit for shooting. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY to do it. Same Formaking ranged attacks....

When do you make ranged attacks? IN THE SHOOTING PHASE. it's the same exact thing.
U cannot make ranged attack outside of the shooting phase. That's what the Strategen is for, it BREAKS the normal rules. It lets a unit shoot like it was the shooting phase. What is a unit shooting in the shooting phase? ITS THE SEQUENCE.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Red oak - you're ignoring the key part of the rules for firing deck. It limits the firing deck to only being used in the shooting phase. At any other time, it is not the shooting phase and cannot be used.
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Red oak - you're ignoring the key part of the rules for firing deck. It limits the firing deck to only being used in the shooting phase. At any other time, it is not the shooting phase and cannot be used.


It reads 'each time this unit is selected [...] in the shooting phase, do x'. If you are shooting in Overwatch, you are selecting this unit zero times in the shooting phase, because it is not the shooting phase. Imho you are correct.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

I wouldn't be surprised if GW makes a special exception for this, but by RAW, it's pretty dang clear that Firing Decks only work in the shooting phase. Not with out of phase shooting attacks.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




Tsagualsa wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Red oak - you're ignoring the key part of the rules for firing deck. It limits the firing deck to only being used in the shooting phase. At any other time, it is not the shooting phase and cannot be used.


It reads 'each time this unit is selected [...] in the shooting phase, do x'. If you are shooting in Overwatch, you are selecting this unit zero times in the shooting phase, because it is not the shooting phase. Imho you are correct.


selecting in the shooting phase is part of shooting with a unit.
i explained that a couple of times

read my posts

the ONLY time U can select a unit for shooting is by that sequence. The sequence DEFINES it. 'Select eligible unit' is the ONLY way to select a unit for shooting. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY to do it. Same Formaking ranged attacks....

the only times you can make ranged attacks is also in the shooting phase. so i still dont get why one should be allowd and the other not. its part of the same sequence!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/21 20:14:31


 
   
 
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